Notre Dame will be joining the B10, Book it.

Here is what Delaney at the Big Ten office should do, in addition to showing them the financial advantages of joining the conference....is to simply tell them...if you don't join, don't hold your breathe for another offer ever. In addition....

  • None of our universities will be scheduling you in any sports, especially football. Have fun scheduling more ACC and MAC opponents.
 
OK enought with the thread derailment lets just get back to admitting ND will join the Big10 as being fact :)
 
It's worth noting that the US poulation has probably grown by close to 100 million in that time frame.. I wonder what the Catholic "market share" is compared to then. I also wonder how a big a factor Latino immigration have had as I know that is a dominant faith in thier culture.

There are some other telling stats in that article, like how 1 in 4 Catholics regularly attend mass versus 3 in 4 in 1958. Here is a link to an article that states a more recent decline in practicing Catholics.

Catholic Culture : Latest Headlines : Number of US Catholics declines by 398,000

Another discussion for another time though... Maybe it's a little more debatable than I thought.


The # of practicing Catholics might have declined. That would be near impossible to prove though. The # of practicing Methodists, Lutherans, Baptists ect, ect have probably declined also.

I just don't feel that your #2 argument is a valid reason for Notre Dame declining with # of fans. And I don't believe for 1 second that every single student that attends Notre Dame is Catholic. You can still be a fan of Notre Dame without being Catholic. There are plenty of Notre Dame fans out there.
 
I would like to see the Irish in the Big Ten it would make a great fit in all sports not just football. The Irish have to realize it is not 1960 anymore and the glory days are behind ND everyone is on national tv now and with Big Ten network every big ten game is a national game no longer an advantage.
 
At some point, ND will have faded enough to not even interest the Big Ten.
Not there yet,but if the Big Ten expands,and members stop playing ND, they will be stuck playing the academies, and a hodge -podge of bottom feeder teams desperate for a payday and USC...

Compare that with ND playing Navy,USC, Stanford and 9 Big Ten schools.

I think they are pretty close to there. What value Notre Dame can bring to the Big 10 is getting smaller and smaller by the year.
 
I thought from the very beginning of this expansion talk, that all of the rumors about Texas, Nebraska, Missouri, Rutgers, Pitt Ect was all a ploy to get Notre Dame. Notre Dame is not going to have a choice. All Jim Delany has to say is, "Either join us, or we are not playing you anymore." The financial incentive for Notre Dame to stay independent no longer exists.

Bingo...

Notre Dame Eyeing Expansion Stories | Hawkeye Nation
 
Left out of the BCS or Playoff system, no large scale TV deal, a consistently losing program, a systematic decline in the numbers of devout Catholics that feed the program, stringent academic standards that make it difficult to compete.... Yep.

I'd argue without the NBC deal ND is obscure now. If they get left behind media wise they would have the national relevence of the Army and Navy football programs have today in about 5 years.
I agree with everything you say except the part about Devout Catholics.

Notre Dame is the School for Cultural Catholics. The kind who only show up for easter and Christmas and then have no clue what to do at Mass and when to do it. Devout Catholics (real Catholics) desparage ND for being an embarassment to the CHurch in Regards to fidelity to the Magisterial teachings of the Faith. In fact in Catholic Acadmeic Circles Jokes are abound about Bob Jones University being more Catholic than ND. ND is Catholic in historical senses and name only...they don't have a mandatum therefore they are not recognized by the Vatican as a Catholic Shcool.
 
The # of practicing Catholics might have declined. That would be near impossible to prove though. The # of practicing Methodists, Lutherans, Baptists ect, ect have probably declined also.

I just don't feel that your #2 argument is a valid reason for Notre Dame declining with # of fans. And I don't believe for 1 second that every single student that attends Notre Dame is Catholic. You can still be a fan of Notre Dame without being Catholic. There are plenty of Notre Dame fans out there.

The church determines soeone is a part of the membership based upon baptism--once a Catholic, always a Catholic...even excommunications aren't calculated.

But there are some finite measurements that are known: the most significant (and alarming to Catholics) is the drastic decline in religion vocations that has now beyond a half century The average age of nuns in the US is in the normal retirement range. The number of priests is down sharply: in Eastern Iowa, as a close-to-home example, it is not unusual now for three or four parishes to share a priest, and priests in the larger parishes in the Davenport Diocese serve masses during the week in parishes for whom a fulltime paster is not available.

What we do know anecdotally is that despite the closing of many parish churches and fewer masses in many others, the pews are not nearly as filled as they were fifty years ago. And what we know from survey data is that both the percentage of Catholics who attend mass on a somewhat regular basis nad the number of Catholics who rate religion as seriously important in their lives has been declining for the past six decades.

The same is true for mainstream Protestant denominations and for Reformed & Conservative Judaism. As for pentecostal and fundamentalist Protestants, the picture is far from clear. It is obvious that the REligious Right continually inflates the number of adherents...and it is notorious that there is a sizable contingent of "the saved" who repeat the process very frequently, walk the sawdust trail to Redemption so long and so often their feet get blistered.

The inherent problem with ALL data about church membership and religious identity is that subjective devil of measurement termed "intensity"--and no one has yet been able to suggest a sensible objective standard to implement the intensity of commitment.

Of course none of this matters much as having any relevance to Notre Dame athletics. Not only are many of ND students not Catholic, the same is true of the faculty--including even the Depts of Religion & Philosophy (especially the latter). The long continuing decline of Notre Dame's fan base is evident even in its most traditional core, Chicago. Ironically, the primary reason is the rapid geometric rise in college attendance: ever since the end of World War 2 and the start of the GI Bill, the sons & daughters of working class families have gone to college instead of the stock yards, steel mills, etc--and become alumni of the Big Ten and other state/public universities instilling their sons & daughters as toddlers with a passion for dear old dad's college team--until they go elsewhere themselves. And not only is the last generation of "street-car NMD Irish" dying off, even their neighborhood bars are disappearing as well (less than a third as many of them now as thirty years ago with Mayor Daley determined to close down those that remain--while the "sports bars" on the Near North, Lincoln Park, "Wrigleyville" are packed with fans watching three different Big Ten games on separate screens simultaneously).
 
The church determines soeone is a part of the membership based upon baptism--once a Catholic, always a Catholic...even excommunications aren't calculated.

But there are some finite measurements that are known: the most significant (and alarming to Catholics) is the drastic decline in religion vocations that has now beyond a half century The average age of nuns in the US is in the normal retirement range. The number of priests is down sharply: in Eastern Iowa, as a close-to-home example, it is not unusual now for three or four parishes to share a priest, and priests in the larger parishes in the Davenport Diocese serve masses during the week in parishes for whom a fulltime paster is not available.

What we do know anecdotally is that despite the closing of many parish churches and fewer masses in many others, the pews are not nearly as filled as they were fifty years ago. And what we know from survey data is that both the percentage of Catholics who attend mass on a somewhat regular basis nad the number of Catholics who rate religion as seriously important in their lives has been declining for the past six decades.

The same is true for mainstream Protestant denominations and for Reformed & Conservative Judaism. As for pentecostal and fundamentalist Protestants, the picture is far from clear. It is obvious that the REligious Right continually inflates the number of adherents...and it is notorious that there is a sizable contingent of "the saved" who repeat the process very frequently, walk the sawdust trail to Redemption so long and so often their feet get blistered.

The inherent problem with ALL data about church membership and religious identity is that subjective devil of measurement termed "intensity"--and no one has yet been able to suggest a sensible objective standard to implement the intensity of commitment.

Of course none of this matters much as having any relevance to Notre Dame athletics. Not only are many of ND students not Catholic, the same is true of the faculty--including even the Depts of Religion & Philosophy (especially the latter). The long continuing decline of Notre Dame's fan base is evident even in its most traditional core, Chicago. Ironically, the primary reason is the rapid geometric rise in college attendance: ever since the end of World War 2 and the start of the GI Bill, the sons & daughters of working class families have gone to college instead of the stock yards, steel mills, etc--and become alumni of the Big Ten and other state/public universities instilling their sons & daughters as toddlers with a passion for dear old dad's college team--until they go elsewhere themselves. And not only is the last generation of "street-car NMD Irish" dying off, even their neighborhood bars are disappearing as well (less than a third as many of them now as thirty years ago with Mayor Daley determined to close down those that remain--while the "sports bars" on the Near North, Lincoln Park, "Wrigleyville" are packed with fans watching three different Big Ten games on separate screens simultaneously).

This is what I meant when I said the Catholic fanbase was in decline. Please replace what I said with this.
 
1) They aren't winning
2) The numbers of actively praciticing Catholocism is on the decline reducing the number of people "born into" thier fanbase".
3) They face difficulties recruiting high level players due to thier academic standards.
4) They face the possiblity of not having a nationwide TV deal.
5) They may get left out of the next BCS/Playoff agreement.

That you insinuate that someone is "born into" a fanbase is absolutely 100% not true. I was raised Catholic and despise Notre Dame. Just because someone is Catholic doesn't make them a Notre Dame fan. On the flip side, I have one friend that loves Notre Dame, yet follows no religion. To him it's a sport and has nothing to do with religion.
 
hey duffman, i agree with your general argument, but i wouldn't get in the habit of posting links to worldnet daily. right now their second story (after an 'obama isn't eligible to be president' headline) is a prophecy about 2012. they are pretty vigorously anti-catholic and anti-semitic, in addition to being pretty much bat-crazy in general. and don't get me started on pat buchanan.

but yes, duffman, i think you are thrusting in the direction of the problem. the vise will tighten on notre dame as the big ten network grows and other conferences launch their own networks.


Pat Buchanan rules.
 
If you want to label my prediction as "unbelievable" go right ahead, it doesn't change the fact it's going to happen.

This isn't your daddys Notre Dame. Society moves so much faster now than it did 20 years ago. Ask Nebraska how fast you can go from national power to also ran. That's hardly the only example. Again there are lots of reasons this would happen.

1) They aren't winning
2) The numbers of actively praciticing Catholocism is on the decline reducing the number of people "born into" thier fanbase".
3) They face difficulties recruiting high level players due to thier academic standards.
4) They face the possiblity of not having a nationwide TV deal.
5) They may get left out of the next BCS/Playoff agreement.

Numbers 1-3 are fact, they have already occured or are occuring right now. If 4 and 5 happen ND football is DEAD as a national brand. They are no more relevent than the other independants (the Army and Naval academies) and it will happen in less than 5 years.

Rivals has their overall recruiting classes ranked as follows:

2010: 14th
2009: 21st
2008: 2nd
2007: 8th
2006: 8th
2005: 40th
2004: 32nd
2003: 12th
2002: 24th

This time span includes 2 coaching changes...several poor records...and the entire time they had the same academic standards. I would say that the coaching changes and poor records have more to do with bad years in recruiting than academic standards. When Notre Dame is in good shape...they get the best players in the country. There are a handful of teams that consistently recruit better than ND...and it's not because of academic standards. It's because those teams are Texas, Florida and USC.
 
That you insinuate that someone is "born into" a fanbase is absolutely 100% not true. I was raised Catholic and despise Notre Dame. Just because someone is Catholic doesn't make them a Notre Dame fan. On the flip side, I have one friend that loves Notre Dame, yet follows no religion. To him it's a sport and has nothing to do with religion.

This is true for me. Born catholic and attending a catholic university and getting a masters in theology. I despise notre dame. I belong to a traditionalist parish. I do not know of a single person in my parish that likes ND. I know lots who despise ND. Mostly for reasons other than Pigskin.
 
Rivals has their overall recruiting classes ranked as follows:

2010: 14th
2009: 21st
2008: 2nd
2007: 8th
2006: 8th
2005: 40th
2004: 32nd
2003: 12th
2002: 24th

This time span includes 2 coaching changes...several poor records...and the entire time they had the same academic standards. I would say that the coaching changes and poor records have more to do with bad years in recruiting than academic standards. When Notre Dame is in good shape...they get the best players in the country. There are a handful of teams that consistently recruit better than ND...and it's not because of academic standards. It's because those teams are Texas, Florida and USC.


When you use a sytem to rank recruiting classes that in part bases it's rankings on what schools recruit/offer players you are bound to see things like this happen.

Seriously can there be a better argument for why the recruiting services are full of garbage than this? Which is more believable that ND consistently has poor to average teams despite averaging a top 20 recruiting class or that the recruiting class model is more concerned with selling magazines and website subscribtions than accurately evaluating talent.

I guess you could always make the argument that ND has struggled in the last 10-12 years because they have had the worst coaching staffs on earth.
 
When you use a sytem to rank recruiting classes that in part bases it's rankings on what schools recruit/offer players you are bound to see things like this happen.

No doubt about that. ND's rankings are somewhat inflated because people give them the benefit of the doubt that if a kid gets an ND offer, he must be good.

Heck, we've seen no name kids come to Iowa and become 1st round draft choices...and we've seen ND poach two Iowa commits, and those kids do next to nothing at Notre Dame
 
When you use a sytem to rank recruiting classes that in part bases it's rankings on what schools recruit/offer players you are bound to see things like this happen.

Seriously can there be a better argument for why the recruiting services are full of garbage than this? Which is more believable that ND consistently has poor to average teams despite averaging a top 20 recruiting class or that the recruiting class model is more concerned with selling magazines and website subscribtions than accurately evaluating talent.

I guess you could always make the argument that ND has struggled in the last 10-12 years because they have had the worst coaching staffs on earth.

I think we're all aware that the recruiting services inflate a kid's ranking based on the schools looking at him...I think it's understandable. I certainly always take a second look when I see that we signed a kid that OSU offered.

Is it plausible that Notre Dame recruited well with the most high profile coach in the NCAA and a school that has traditionally been dominant and plays on National TV as much if not more than anyone else in the country? Yeah.

Is it plausible that a coach could bring in great recruits and then screw it up because he's not very good...::cough::...::cough::...Zook...::cough::...::cough::...

The fact of the matter is that they made a mistake with Weis...Weis was too much of a strategist and not enough of a motivator...but one thing that he wasn't it a mediocre recruiter.

We're talking about a team that was dominant at one time...and brought in a coach that got away from the fundamentals that made the program great and became too concerned with recruiting and strategerie...::cough::...::cough::...Zalesky...::cough::...::cough::...

Is it so hard to believe that the right coach can turn the bus around?

Personally I do not like Notre Dame...but let's not pretend like they aren't a big deal and like they're not still a big time college program that is a serious threat to win National Championships.
 
I think we're all aware that the recruiting services inflate a kid's ranking based on the schools looking at him...I think it's understandable. I certainly always take a second look when I see that we signed a kid that OSU offered.

Is it plausible that Notre Dame recruited well with the most high profile coach in the NCAA and a school that has traditionally been dominant and plays on National TV as much if not more than anyone else in the country? Yeah.

Is it plausible that a coach could bring in great recruits and then screw it up because he's not very good...::cough::...::cough::...Zook...::cough::...::cough::...

The fact of the matter is that they made a mistake with Weis...Weis was too much of a strategist and not enough of a motivator...but one thing that he wasn't it a mediocre recruiter.

We're talking about a team that was dominant at one time...and brought in a coach that got away from the fundamentals that made the program great and became too concerned with recruiting and strategerie...::cough::...::cough::...Zalesky...::cough::...::cough::...

Is it so hard to believe that the right coach can turn the bus around?

Personally I do not like Notre Dame...but let's not pretend like they aren't a big deal and like they're not still a big time college program that is a serious threat to win National Championships.

I'll disagree with you on that last point, kind of. Under the right coach, then Notre Dame may be able to get back to their former selves. But as of this minute, Notre Dame is not even close to being a NC threat, much less a serious one. They're not a big time program RIGHT NOW. Maybe Kelly can change that, maybe not. We'll see. If he can't, Notre Dame will try to find someone who can. But until they find THAT guy, they really aren't relevant anymore.
 
I'll disagree with you on that last point, kind of. Under the right coach, then Notre Dame may be able to get back to their former selves. But as of this minute, Notre Dame is not even close to being a NC threat, much less a serious one. They're not a big time program RIGHT NOW. Maybe Kelly can change that, maybe not. We'll see. If he can't, Notre Dame will try to find someone who can. But until they find THAT guy, they really aren't relevant anymore.

After 8 games last year Notre Dame was 6-2 with a 38-34 L @ Michigan and a 33-30 W at home against Mich St.

After 8 games last year Iowa was 8-0 with a 30-28 W at home against Michigan and a 15-13 W at Michigan State.

They're not far from bring a very good program...put a decent college football coach on that team and they're right there. Coaching changes are rarely good for programs in the short term...but I think Brian Kelly is taking over a program with a lot of talent waiting in the wings. If he instill a little mental toughness in those players...and get back to basics...he could be back in the hunt very quickly.
 

Latest posts

Top