***North Florida Game Thread***

Robowe said:
One question - do you think Fran will play those rotations? History tells us, without injuries, he wants to play 10 or so players.
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History has shown us that....but the whole 10 thing doesn't really matter to me because the bulk of the minutes every season go to the best players. It's not like everyone is getting the same amount of time in a 10 player rotation. Just go look at minutes played, Fran rides 5 to 6 guys almost every season and then distributes the rest.
 
InGoodCo said:
History has shown us that....but the whole 10 thing doesn't really matter to me because the bulk of the minutes every season go to the best players. It's not like everyone is getting the same amount of time in a 10 player rotation. Just go look at minutes played, Fran rides 5 to 6 guys almost every season and then distributes the rest.
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I gotta say I disagree with that. I’m not sure what your definition of riding guys is but for the most part you can play guys 29-34 minutes if you really want. Fran typically doesn’t do that. Over the last 4 years we’ve typically only had one guy maybe two over the 30 minute mark per game.

Now there are certainly many other factors there but I think as a general consensus Fran plays longer rotations than a typical coach which ultimately takes minutes from your top players, or doesn’t allow you to ride your top players. I think you’d have a tough time arguing that one.
 
NikeHawk21 said:
I gotta say I disagree with that. I’m not sure what your definition of riding guys is but for the most part you can play guys 29-34 minutes if you really want. Fran typically doesn’t do that. Over the last 4 years we’ve typically only had one guy maybe two over the 30 minute mark per game.

Now there are certainly many other factors there but I think as a general consensus Fran plays longer rotations than a typical coach which ultimately takes minutes from your top players, or doesn’t allow you to ride your top players. I think you’d have a tough time arguing that one.
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Might be hard but ya know me, I take it as a challenge. I realize the general consensus, I rarely believe general consensuses ... you'd figure you'd know me by now. :) I won't argue that Fran plays more guys then he should. He does... but when it's all said and done, he rides his best guys and the top 7 or 8 get the bulk of the minutes.


18-19 seasons MP
cook - 1016
Luka - 759
Jordan - 1085
Weezy - 971
Moss- 845
Baer - 667
Connor- 632

everyone else had less then 500 minutes played. That's riding your top 7 players

17-18 season MP
TC 923
JB 1050
Luka 715
Moss 798
Nunge 517
Pemsl 525
Daily 544
Baer 578

everyone else under 300 minutes played. That was 8 players getting the bulk

16-17 season MP
Jok 983
jordan 1005
cook 662
Pemsl 655
Baer 808
Moss 580
Wagner 545
Ellingson 484
Uhl 467
Williams 435

everyone else played under 300 minutes. That was 10 players getting the bulk and it was too much.

15-16 season MP
Uthoff - 1016
Jok 887
Clemmons 976
Gesell 987
Woody 836
Uhl 592
Baer 477

everyone else played under 350 minutes. That's riding your top 7

14-15 season MP
White 1070
Uthoff 1031
Olaseni 634
Gesell 866
Jok 676
Woody 697
Clemmons 677
Ogelsby 625

everyone else had under 400 minutes. That's riding your top 8

13-14 season MP
Marble - 995
White 926
Gesell 783
Uthoff 601
Basabe 568
Olseni - 552
McCabe 520
Woody - 538
Ogelsby 409
Clemmons 363

everyone else had under 350 minutes. That's 10, it's too many.

So, you'll see in my OP that said "history has shown us that" ....as in history has shown us that Fran wants to play 10 guys...I agree that it has....but I also agree that history has also shown that he's gonna ride 7-8 guys the bulk of the minutes.
 
InGoodCo said:
Might be hard but ya know me, I take it as a challenge. I realize the general consensus, I rarely believe general consensuses ... you'd figure you'd know me by now. :) I won't argue that Fran plays more guys then he should. He does... but when it's all said and done, he rides his best guys and the top 7 or 8 get the bulk of the minutes.


18-19 seasons MP
cook - 1016
Luka - 759
Jordan - 1085
Weezy - 971
Moss- 845
Baer - 667
Connor- 632

everyone else had less then 500 minutes played. That's riding your top 7 players

17-18 season MP
TC 923
JB 1050
Luka 715
Moss 798
Nunge 517
Pemsl 525
Daily 544
Baer 578

everyone else under 300 minutes played. That was 8 players getting the bulk

16-17 season MP
Jok 983
jordan 1005
cook 662
Pemsl 655
Baer 808
Moss 580
Wagner 545
Ellingson 484
Uhl 467
Williams 435

everyone else played under 300 minutes. That was 10 players getting the bulk and it was too much.

15-16 season MP
Uthoff - 1016
Jok 887
Clemmons 976
Gesell 987
Woody 836
Uhl 592
Baer 477

everyone else played under 350 minutes. That's riding your top 7

14-15 season MP
White 1070
Uthoff 1031
Olaseni 634
Gesell 866
Jok 676
Woody 697
Clemmons 677
Ogelsby 625

everyone else had under 400 minutes. That's riding your top 8

13-14 season MP
Marble - 995
White 926
Gesell 783
Uthoff 601
Basabe 568
Olseni - 552
McCabe 520
Woody - 538
Ogelsby 409
Clemmons 363

everyone else had under 350 minutes. That's 10, it's too many.

So, you'll see in my OP that said "history has shown us that" ....as in history has shown us that Fran wants to play 10 guys...I agree that it has....but I also agree that history has also shown that he's gonna ride 7-8 guys the bulk of the minutes.
Click to expand...
Those are all basically meaningless numbers. What were the games played, injuries, etc. That’s why minutes per game is nice.

Iowa has had 4 total players average over 30 minutes a game over the last three years.

Wisconsin has had 9.

Michigan has had 9.

Minnesota has had 9.

If I used a cutoff of 29 minutes those teams would have even more than Iowa. It all depends on your definition of ride. Again I think your general point is still fine, which is that Fran does settle in on his top guys eventually. But the fact of the matter is playing 10 guys ultimately is going to take away minutes from your top guys.

What we are suggesting is a shorter rotation and heavier reliance on your top guys. In essence take your analysis above, chop the minutes of the bottom two guys, and disperse them amongst the best players.

Again tons of factors involved but as a general consensus Fran likes to play a longer rotation, which in general is going to cost guys minutes.
 
NikeHawk21 said:
Those are all basically meaningless numbers. What were the games played, injuries, etc. That’s why minutes per game is nice.

Iowa has had 4 total players average over 30 minutes a game over the last three years.

Wisconsin has had 9.

Michigan has had 9.

Minnesota has had 9.

If I used a cutoff of 29 minutes those teams would have even more than Iowa. It all depends on your definition of ride. Again I think your general point is still fine, which is that Fran does settle in on his top guys eventually. But the fact of the matter is playing 10 guys ultimately is going to take away minutes from your top guys.

What we are suggesting is a shorter rotation and heavier reliance on your top guys. In essence take your analysis above, chop the minutes of the bottom two guys, and disperse them amongst the best players.

Again tons of factors involved but as a general consensus Fran likes to play a longer rotation, which in general is going to cost guys minutes.
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agree, I would like to see him stick with his top guys even more. There are a lot of things that can skew the #'s .... i just think the whole "Fran wants to play 10 guys" narrative gets kind of overblown. I wanna see if cut down, but it's not really a talking point when it was a game against North Florida... eeeeerrybody gonna play in that type of game... and over all it's not as egregious as everyone makes out IMO
 
InGoodCo said:
agree, I would like to see him stick with his top guys even more. There are a lot of things that can skew the #'s .... i just think the whole "Fran wants to play 10 guys" narrative gets kind of overblown. I wanna see if cut down, but it's not really a talking point when it was a game against North Florida... eeeeerrybody gonna play in that type of game... and over all it's not as egregious as everyone makes out IMO
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Last nights game was not a big deal but I do think Fran’s rotational management and long rotations has been a shortcoming throughout his tenure here.

I’ll provide an example:

2013-2014 what I still believe to be the best team in the Fran era. Marble a senior, White a junior. Iowa only played 3 players over 20 minutes a game! That’s almost criminal.

Jarrod Uthoff averages 18.1 minutes a game. He shoots 50% FG / 42.5% 3pt / 80% FT. He’s second on the team in blocked shots.

Meanwhile Basabe and McCabe (both seniors) play 17.8 and 15.8 minutes per game respectively.

Had Fran been able to identify and cut at least one of those guys out of the rotation and give those minutes to Uthoff, White, and Marble, I believe that team could have had a much better season than they did.
 
InGoodCo said:
Might be hard but ya know me, I take it as a challenge. I realize the general consensus, I rarely believe general consensuses ... you'd figure you'd know me by now. :) I won't argue that Fran plays more guys then he should. He does... but when it's all said and done, he rides his best guys and the top 7 or 8 get the bulk of the minutes.


18-19 seasons MP
cook - 1016
Luka - 759
Jordan - 1085
Weezy - 971
Moss- 845
Baer - 667
Connor- 632

everyone else had less then 500 minutes played. That's riding your top 7 players

17-18 season MP
TC 923
JB 1050
Luka 715
Moss 798
Nunge 517
Pemsl 525
Daily 544
Baer 578

everyone else under 300 minutes played. That was 8 players getting the bulk

16-17 season MP
Jok 983
jordan 1005
cook 662
Pemsl 655
Baer 808
Moss 580
Wagner 545
Ellingson 484
Uhl 467
Williams 435

everyone else played under 300 minutes. That was 10 players getting the bulk and it was too much.

15-16 season MP
Uthoff - 1016
Jok 887
Clemmons 976
Gesell 987
Woody 836
Uhl 592
Baer 477

everyone else played under 350 minutes. That's riding your top 7

14-15 season MP
White 1070
Uthoff 1031
Olaseni 634
Gesell 866
Jok 676
Woody 697
Clemmons 677
Ogelsby 625

everyone else had under 400 minutes. That's riding your top 8

13-14 season MP
Marble - 995
White 926
Gesell 783
Uthoff 601
Basabe 568
Olseni - 552
McCabe 520
Woody - 538
Ogelsby 409
Clemmons 363

everyone else had under 350 minutes. That's 10, it's too many.

So, you'll see in my OP that said "history has shown us that" ....as in history has shown us that Fran wants to play 10 guys...I agree that it has....but I also agree that history has also shown that he's gonna ride 7-8 guys the bulk of the minutes.
Click to expand...

So, for 18-19, why draw the line at 500 (top 7)? Kriener played 487 and Dailey played 436 which is more than 12 minutes a game? That's 2 extra and that's 9 players.

In 17-18, Kriener played 10.4 minutes/game, Ellingson played 11.0 minutes/game, and Connor played 13.3 minutes/game before being limited to 4 games due to injury. That's 3 possible players added.

in 16-17, you were right ... too many in the rotation (using 300 minutes) with 10.

In 15-16, Wagner played 323 minutes and Ellingson played 247 (but you limited to 350 this year). That's 2 more possible players to add (1 for sure) to make it 8 or 9.

In 14-15, Dom Uhl played 331 minutes (so, make it top 9).

In 13-14, yep, there's 10.
 
Robowe said:
One question - do you think Fran will play those rotations? History tells us, without injuries, he wants to play 10 or so players.
Click to expand...

Probably not. I see both sides of the rotation arguement. I think for the most part, the big rotation is one or maybe two extra guys playing who are the same skill level as the 7th and 8th best players. Sometimes playing that guy can find you a hot hand that helps you win the game, and sometimes playing that guy keeps another guy out of a rhythm. I would lean towards saying it's a little better to play 8 guys than 10, but it's really not that big of a deal.

Take Kriener and Pemsl for instance. Its maybe a little better to pick one guy and use only him. But doing that could cost you games too. Both guys had nights where they played really well and were a big part in winning the game. Had Fran left them on the bench, there's a better chance we lose. It's better when there's a clear drop off to make the decision easy.
 
I
Robowe said:
So, for 18-19, why draw the line at 500 (top 7)? Kriener played 487 and Dailey played 436 which is more than 12 minutes a game? That's 2 extra and that's 9 players.

In 17-18, Kriener played 10.4 minutes/game, Ellingson played 11.0 minutes/game, and Connor played 13.3 minutes/game before being limited to 4 games due to injury. That's 3 possible players added.

in 16-17, you were right ... too many in the rotation (using 300 minutes) with 10.

In 15-16, Wagner played 323 minutes and Ellingson played 247 (but you limited to 350 this year). That's 2 more possible players to add (1 for sure) to make it 8 or 9.

In 14-15, Dom Uhl played 331 minutes (so, make it top 9).

In 13-14, yep, there's 10.
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cause it hurt my argument? ???? look Nike said it would be hard to argue so I cherry picked some numbers to argue it... literally just to argue it. To many guys who don't deserve minutes or aren't ready for their minutes get them in Fran's rotation. I think those #'s do show that he does play his best guys the most....but other then that it doesn't show shit.
 
InGoodCo said:
I


cause it hurt my argument? ???? look Nike said it would be hard to argue so I cherry picked some numbers to argue it... literally just to argue it. To many guys who don't deserve minutes or aren't ready for their minutes get them in Fran's rotation. I think those #'s do show that he does play his best guys the most....but other then that it doesn't show shit.
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Hey, at least you admitted it. :)
 
PCHawk said:
Probably not. I see both sides of the rotation arguement. I think for the most part, the big rotation is one or maybe two extra guys playing who are the same skill level as the 7th and 8th best players. Sometimes playing that guy can find you a hot hand that helps you win the game, and sometimes playing that guy keeps another guy out of a rhythm. I would lean towards saying it's a little better to play 8 guys than 10, but it's really not that big of a deal.

Take Kriener and Pemsl for instance. Its maybe a little better to pick one guy and use only him. But doing that could cost you games too. Both guys had nights where they played really well and were a big part in winning the game. Had Fran left them on the bench, there's a better chance we lose. It's better when there's a clear drop off to make the decision easy.
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I like this take and feel it is the most accurate. The guys at the bottom of those rotations in bad years are guys like Dailey, Williams, Oglesby, and Uhl. It's no coincidence that in the best years, those bottom guys included the likes of Clemmons and Baer.

Fran is at his best when he has instant impact guys that don't need a ton of minutes to get in the flow. I think if we had a few more Baer and Clemmons like players that can jump in cold off the bench and be instant energy players, Fran's system would work better.
 
The thing with a shorter rotation...7 or 8...there would be lots of differing opinions on who should be in that rotation.
 
WindsorHawk said:
The thing with a shorter rotation...7 or 8...there would be lots of differing opinions on who should be in that rotation.
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Fans are always going to find something to point to after losses. If we lose with an 8 man rotation, people would say "we really could have used Pemsl that game". If Pemsl played 8 minutes in that same game (essentially taking away one minute per player) fans would say we lost because Fran plays too many guys.
 
Just in case anyone is interested, North Florida is playing at Creighton right now on FS1. North Florida has had the lead the whole game so far. 36-31 North Florida at half.
 
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