Last Dance - Random Thought

[WinOneThisCentury]

Ok....so I'm watching and remembering Michael Jordan absolutely torching the Celtics for 49 and 63...just scoring at will. Then I remembered a trivia question.

Who was the last person to keep Michael Jordan from averaging 20pts a game. Answer: Dean Smith

Think about the competition Jordan was facing in college and he was never allowed to just go off. I'm sorry...i know you have a system...but you have a once in a generation player...and he can't average 25 in college on your team. How many points do you think Jordan averages on Fran's teams? 35? 40? Just saying...I know they won a title during Jordan's years...but Smith should take some heat on the way he used Jordan.

 

[SpiderRico]

Ok....so I'm watching and remembering Michael Jordan absolutely torching the Celtics for 49 and 63...just scoring at will. Then I remembered a trivia question.

Who was the last person to keep Michael Jordan from averaging 20pts a game. Answer: Dean Smith

Think about the competition Jordan was facing in college and he was never allowed to just go off. I'm sorry...i know you have a system...but you have a once in a generation player...and he can't average 25 in college on your team. How many points do you think Jordan averages on Fran's teams? 35? 40? Just saying...I know they won a title during Jordan's years...but Smith should take some heat on the way he used Jordan.

The "Dean Smith" answer is sort of tongue in cheek. Dean didn't hold Michael back at all. That team had Michael, James Worthy, and Sam Perkins. There's only so many shots to go around. Plus, no 3 point line either. But he won a NC, was Player of the Year and 1st Team AA. So I think Dean Smith did just fine by Mike.

 

[GoHawks24]

A few of my thoughts on it:

I'm pretty sure the college shot clock during Jordan's playing days at UNC was 45 seconds. Offenses weren't nearly as prolific as they are today. A majority of coach's strategy was Lickliter-esque.

The 3 pt line in college wasn't implemented until 1986, after Jordan had already went to the NBA. But Jordan was never much of a 3 pt shooter anyway. Later in his career he started to become a much better 3 pt shooter.

MJ kept improving more and more as his career progressed, especially as a scorer.

He played on some damn talented teams where he didn't have to be relied on as the only scoring option, whereas he was all the Bulls had for the first few years of his career.

Like you said, they won a national title his Sophomore year, so whatever Dean was doing was working out all right.

But yes, but I would agree that Dean Smith probably could have taken a little bit more advantage of his scoring talents.

 

[Hawkfnntn]

A few of my thoughts on it:

I'm pretty sure the college shot clock during Jordan's playing days at UNC was 45 seconds. Offenses weren't nearly as prolific as they are today. A majority of coach's strategy was Lickliter-esque.

The 3 pt line in college wasn't implemented until 1986, after Jordan had already went to the NBA. But Jordan was never much of a 3 pt shooter anyway. Later in his career he started to become a much better 3 pt shooter.

MJ kept improving more and more as his career progressed, especially as a scorer.

He played on some damn talented teams where he didn't have to be relied on as the only scoring option, whereas he was all the Bulls had for the first few years of his career.

Like you said, they won a national title his Sophomore year, so whatever Dean was doing was working out all right.

But yes, but I would agree that Dean Smith probably could have taken a little bit more advantage of his scoring talents.

Yup even worse then that. That whole 4 corners stalling offense was pretty much attributed to Dean Smith. He was all about taking the air out of the ball. But he won a lot so...

 

[Xerxes]

College basketball didn't even have a shot clock when Jordan played. It wasn't instituted until the 1985-1986 season.

 

[GoHawks24]

College basketball didn't even have a shot clock when Jordan played. It wasn't instituted until the 1985-1986 season.

OK, thanks for the correction. I must have been reading about a different league.

Man, can you imagine having to watch basketball from that was even worse than Lickliter ball?

 

[Northside Hawk]

OK, thanks for the correction. I must have been reading about a different league.

Man, can you imagine having to watch basketball from that was even worse than Lickliter ball?

There was an ACC conference tournament game between North Carolina and Virginia (Jordan and Ralph Sampson on the floor) where the score never got out of the thirties. This is widely believed to be the straw that broke the camel's back when it came to instituting the shot clock.

Jordan was not seen as a strong outside shooter when he left college for the NBA. When Michael lost his final college game Bobby Knight famously had Dan Dakich and Marty Simmons play off Jordan, not let him penetrate, and cut off his backdoor moves to the hoop. Michael would eventually make the mid-range shot a feared part of his repertoire, then the fade away, then the three pointer when needed. He became as complete a player as the game has ever seen, wiping Oscar Robertson complete!y from public conscience.

 

[Hawknigh]

Yup even worse then that. That whole 4 corners stalling offense was pretty much attributed to Dean Smith. He was all about taking the air out of the ball. But he won a lot so...

I don't recall Dean Smith ever playing in a Four Corners offense with Jordan on the floor.

 

[WinOneThisCentury]

Yeah...no shot clock. That was crazy. I watched a replay of the Iowa -Georgetown game from 1980 that sent the Hawks to the Final 4. If I remember correctly...we held the ball for like 2:40 for the final shot or something like that. It was ridiculous. Then when you think about it...having Ronnie Lester and Kenny Arnold handling the ball (both great free throw shooters) pretty much iced every game if we were leading in the last five minutes.

i realize there was strategy in that...but the clock brings more player skill to the table as teams are forced to shoot and teams know if they play defense...they get the ball back.

 

[Northside Hawk]

Yeah...no shot clock. That was crazy. I watched a replay of the Iowa -Georgetown game from 1980 that sent the Hawks to the Final 4. If I remember correctly...we held the ball for like 2:40 for the final shot or something like that. It was ridiculous. Then when you think about it...having Ronnie Lester and Kenny Arnold handling the ball (both great free throw shooters) pretty much iced every game if we were leading in the last five minutes.

i realize there was strategy in that...but the clock brings more player skill to the table as teams are forced to shoot and teams know if they play defense...they get the ball back.

Arguably the best backcourt Iowa has had in my lifetime and that includes Armstrong/Marble or Armstrong/Gamble, and Woodridge/Kingsbury.

Another rule they implemented to cut down on freezing the ball was the five second guarding rule. Yes there was a time when that didn't exist. And it would have been difficult to hold the ball that long against a team like Georgetown if that rule was in play.

 

[MelroseHawkins]

A few of my thoughts on it:

I'm pretty sure the college shot clock during Jordan's playing days at UNC was 45 seconds. Offenses weren't nearly as prolific as they are today. A majority of coach's strategy was Lickliter-esque.

The 3 pt line in college wasn't implemented until 1986, after Jordan had already went to the NBA. But Jordan was never much of a 3 pt shooter anyway. Later in his career he started to become a much better 3 pt shooter.

MJ kept improving more and more as his career progressed, especially as a scorer.

He played on some damn talented teams where he didn't have to be relied on as the only scoring option, whereas he was all the Bulls had for the first few years of his career.

Like you said, they won a national title his Sophomore year, so whatever Dean was doing was working out all right.

But yes, but I would agree that Dean Smith probably could have taken a little bit more advantage of his scoring talents.

In addition, the defense a player was allowed to play back then is completely different than today. Much of the reason today's offenses are so prolific.

 

[tweeterhawk]

A thread on a documentary on arguably the greatest run of an NBA team ever and no mention of one of its keys, former Hawkeye great BJ Armstrong?

it was wonderful to see him and get his insights on playing a supporting role to MJ.

I think it was Jim Zabel who called BJ a “baby-faced assassin.” Thirty years after his Iowa days, BJ still is “baby-faced.”

At age 52 I think BJ would like that. I know I would.

 

[kicker22]

Yup even worse then that. That whole 4 corners stalling offense was pretty much attributed to Dean Smith. He was all about taking the air out of the ball. But he won a lot so...

Dean Smith was coach Lick before Coach Lick.

 

[kicker22]

I was never a Jordan fan as I loved everything about how the Pistons played D back then. But it pains me to say I also forgot how good MJ was. That said, I always thought that his supporting cast during the dynasty was incredibly underrated.

The only thing I didn't appreciate about the documentary was that it seemed MJ had too big of a hand in it and therefore it was a little on the biased side and not what I'd consider a true documentary as it seemed there were multiple times I felt as though he seemed to be running the production and calling the shots while ignoring controversial issues that I felt should have been explored more.

 

[WinOneThisCentury]

I was never a Jordan fan as I loved everything about how the Pistons played D back then. But it pains me to say I also forgot how good MJ was. That said, I always thought that his supporting cast during the dynasty was incredibly underrated.

The only thing I didn't appreciate about the documentary was that it seemed MJ had too big of a hand in it and therefore it was a little on the biased side and not what I'd consider a true documentary as it seemed there were multiple times I felt as though he seemed to be running the production and calling the shots while ignoring controversial issues that I felt should have been explored more.

The Pistons were thugs. That wasn't basketball you were watching...it was a form of wrestling, football, and basketball all wrapped up into one. I'm really surprised more people didn't get hurt playing them. How the hell the NBA let that go on, I'll never know. You have star players like Jordan and he's allowed to be assaulted every single game by Detroit. When you rule is to never let him leave the ground (hit him first)...that's not what basketball is all about.

Certainly, when you are getting Jordan's perspective on everything...it's going to be biased...but I felt with they dealt with a lot of his issues...gambling, being an a-hole to teammates...relentless taunting. He was a tough teammate...but he toughened people up...and 6 championships tell you...he was successful doing it.

 

[kicker22]

The Pistons were thugs. That wasn't basketball you were watching...it was a form of wrestling, football, and basketball all wrapped up into one. I'm really surprised more people didn't get hurt playing them. How the hell the NBA let that go on, I'll never know. You have star players like Jordan and he's allowed to be assaulted every single game by Detroit. When you rule is to never let him leave the ground (hit him first)...that's not what basketball is all about.

Certainly, when you are getting Jordan's perspective on everything...it's going to be biased...but I felt with they dealt with a lot of his issues...gambling, being an a-hole to teammates...relentless taunting. He was a tough teammate...but he toughened people up...and 6 championships tell you...he was successful doing it.

I'm not going to dispute the fact that they were the most physical team during what was probably the most physical era in NBA history, but at the same time it wasn't the only year they played like that and the league had every opportunity to tighten things up to put them in their place and settle them down, but they didn't.

I'm not saying its right or that I agree with the mentality, but it's a professional sport and the object is to win championships. It's not a popularity contest and the bottom line is find a style of play based on the athletes you have, that gives you the best opportunity to win. If there is no difference between a regular foul and a hard foul then IMO it seems more like a league problem that needed to be addressed.