Kurt Bohls on 1700....

[cmhawks99]

　
Couple thoughts during the Iowa games I watched...
　
1) Many times I remember hearing the announcers say or even I turned to a friend and said Iowa has a tendency to go deep after a TO.....
　
2) Also remember announcers talking about Iowa's motion and Wr, 2 back, 1 back, te in backfield, groupings etc....
　
3)Kmm had a ncie freshemn year, also had some bad drops....he played enuff
　
4) CJF clearly improved and was leaned on more and more as the season progressed...not sure what more should have been done...
　
5) KOK most definitely ran the spread when he coached at Allegheny...
　
6) Drew Tate was sacked 36 times in 2004, and 16 each of the next 2 years....Stanzi was sacked 23 times in 2009 and 19 in 2010. Vandy was sacked 29 times as a rookie starter. Based on these numbers Id guess they were coached as well as could be expected to dump the ball...the rest is on them.
　
7) I remember a few years back when everyone complained about the bubble screen and now it is one of the things we clamor for all the time, yet we never change and we run the same predictable stale stuff we always have...?!?!
　
8) I'm also old enuff to remember sitting in the stands when everyone groaned about Hayden running the 3rd and long draw again....
　
9) As far as getting players open...that wasn't most of our problems, but drops, inconsistencies i/e: execution was...Hopefully Davis can fix that.
　
11) Id say MOST of us fans (not the vocal ones, but most all the same) don't want a lot of wild scheme changes. We just want the team to execute better.....
　
12) Finally there was a nice write up on Yahoo about Phil Parker not changing much and how smart that is as Iowa has historically had a very good D....thnakfully that chap didn't read some of the critics on here before he penned that piece.....lol

 

[Foval21]

Allegheny College Football '96 - YouTube

Watch the video and you will see that kok employed a pro-style offense. It is not a spread. In fact it looks to hold a lot of west coast offense tendencies. West Coast offense is a pro-style that uses more spread like formations but still tries to run between the tackles and has the qb under center. Spread formations are usually shotgun and have different reads and utilize the qb as more of a runner. People need to understand this.

 

[cmhawks99]

Allegheny College Football '96 - YouTube

Watch the video and you will see that kok employed a pro-style offense. It is not a spread. In fact it looks to hold a lot of west coast offense tendencies. West Coast offense is a pro-style that uses more spread like formations but still tries to run between the tackles and has the qb under center. Spread formations are usually shotgun and have different reads and utilize the qb as more of a runner. People need to understand this.

Not a shotgun spread like Houston ran 100 years ago, or does now or TT or, or, or.....

 

[cmhawks99]

Allegheny College Football '96 - YouTube

Watch the video and you will see that kok employed a pro-style offense. It is not a spread. In fact it looks to hold a lot of west coast offense tendencies. West Coast offense is a pro-style that uses more spread like formations but still tries to run between the tackles and has the qb under center. Spread formations are usually shotgun and have different reads and utilize the qb as more of a runner. People need to understand this.

For the record that video was from 1996 and most assuredly not a spread attack...does not change the fact that when he started many years before 1996 he began as a spread coach, or rather had spread tendencies at least....if you look hard enuff there is an article out there on it....read it several years back. Good article...

What is on video isn't even what I would call a straight west coast, but then there isn't a lot to go on there either for what its worth.

 

[Foval21]

Not a shotgun spread like Houston ran 100 years ago, or does now or TT or, or, or.....

How to identify a spread: 95% in shotgun, very little use of FB if you even have one on the team, TEs are used more as an H-back, Use of 3/4/5 wr sets almost exclusively, very few 2 rb sets, Linemen tend to have oversized spaces between them.

How to identify a pro-style: QB under center majority of the time (shotgun is a formation not the standard), use of I-formation and/or 2 runningback sets, TEs used regularly and on the line of scrimmage, FBs are used.

Name a spread that isn't in the shotgun. The west coast offense uses some spread like tendencies with more wrs, but still utilizes the qb under center which is typical of prostyle. Also the running lanes in a spread tend to be outside where a prostyle tries to run between the tackles more consistently. Spread use 3 types of runs almost exclusively: draw, option (read or speed) and sweep.

 

[cmhawks99]

How to identify a spread: 95% in shotgun, very little use of FB if you even have one on the team, TEs are used more as an H-back, Use of 3/4/5 wr sets almost exclusively, very few 2 rb sets, Linemen tend to have oversized spaces between them.

How to identify a pro-style: QB under center majority of the time (shotgun is a formation not the standard), use of I-formation and/or 2 runningback sets, TEs used regularly and on the line of scrimmage, FBs are used.

Name a spread that isn't in the shotgun. The west coast offense uses some spread like tendencies with more wrs, but still utilizes the qb under center which is typical of prostyle. Also the running lanes in a spread tend to be outside where a prostyle tries to run between the tackles more consistently. Spread use 3 types of runs almost exclusively: draw, option (read or speed) and sweep.

And we both agree.....of the very, very limited amount of plays that were showed in "that" 1996 video, they were ALL pro set. Thats all we know from the video...nothing else.

 

[Foval21]

And we both agree.....of the very, very limited amount of plays that were showed in "that" 1996 video, they were ALL pro set. Thats all we know from the video...nothing else.

Everything I have heard and seen tells me this was what he used during his time as OC and HC at allegheny. I would like to know any information in the contrary other than just conjecture. The information I have tells me he ran a prostyle (similar to the west coast) offense. I would like the information that contradicts this.

 

[cmhawks99]

Everything I have heard and seen tells me this was what he used during his time as OC and HC at allegheny. I would like to know any information in the contrary other than just conjecture. The information I have tells me he ran a prostyle (similar to the west coast) offense. I would like the information that contradicts this.

As I said there is an article out there.......I really dont care enuff to find it, but I suspect you have heard of it before, right?!

 

[Foval21]

As I said there is an article out there.......I really dont care enuff to find it, but I suspect you have heard of it before, right?!

What article...I haven't read any article that says KOK ran a spread offense. I would eat crow if I could read it and everything but until I read it I won't. Because everything I have seen is prostyle.

 

[cmhawks99]

What article...I haven't read any article that says KOK ran a spread offense. I would eat crow if I could read it and everything but until I read it I won't. Because everything I have seen is prostyle.

I asume by everything you mean this video....?!?!?

 

[Foval21]

What article...I haven't read any article that says KOK ran a spread offense. I would eat crow if I could read it and everything but until I read it I won't. Because everything I have seen is prostyle.

I asume by everything you mean this video....?!?!?

the video and a cousin who played for kok at iowa and some other people i know that played for him at iowa.

 

[cmhawks99]

Pittsburgh Post-Gazette - Google News Archive Search


Here is your article....I wont always invest the time to find it, but I was intrigued. For the record it is NOT the article I referenced and as you surmised the offense is a hybrid, with a lot of "I" and KOK mentions as much in the article. All the same it calls itself the run & shoot and the need to amp up the passing attack but still needing to be able to run in the mud....
　
Probably the neatest thing about the article is the age of it and the irony it presents...it predates the spread option, yet that's what the single wing (the other teams offense obviously) is in essence. Furthermore if you don't know there is a huge movement back to the single wing or Wing T at the high school level and it is STILL very successful.
　
Alas it isn't the offense you run, but rather your ability to teach and execute it..Which...again ironically enuff....is what many a fan has always said...

 

[cmhawks99]

the video and a cousin who played for kok at iowa and some other people i know that played for him at iowa.

Fair enuff, but for the record...I don't think that would be enuff for me to say anything definitively, but I don't like to play loosely with other peoples thoughts. I linked an old article from the area that suggest it was a run and shoot derivative. Not hard to imagine as we saw some of that here at Iowa from time to time....

 

[Foval21]

i will give you that it is a run and shoot and that that offense uses more wrs to spread the field but the run concepts and pass concepts of the run and shoot are pro style concepts in their reads and route combos just with 3 or 4 wrs. the run and shoot mainly use downhill running which is a staple of the pro style. at most it is a hybrid of the spread and pro style (not a true spread).

i do understand the wing t and its reemergence can be brought back to spread offenses and the wildcat.

i would say that since kok ran a run and shoot the pedestrian passing offense goes on kf. the run and shoot is about option routes and motions and reading the coverages. it is a complicated passing attack and if kok could teach it to d3 players im sure he could have done great things with tate, chandler, stanzi, jvb, etc (not sure about banks because from what i have been told by players on the team with him they took out pass plays and reads because he couldnt do them). with that said we will see how davis does under kf and if he can put some life into our standard pro style.

 

[cmhawks99]

i will give you that it is a run and shoot and that that offense uses more wrs to spread the field but the run concepts and pass concepts of the run and shoot are pro style concepts in their reads and route combos just with 3 or 4 wrs. the run and shoot mainly use downhill running which is a staple of the pro style. at most it is a hybrid of the spread and pro style (not a true spread).

i do understand the wing t and its reemergence can be brought back to spread offenses and the wildcat.

i would say that since kok ran a run and shoot the pedestrian passing offense goes on kf. the run and shoot is about option routes and motions and reading the coverages. it is a complicated passing attack and if kok could teach it to d3 players im sure he could have done great things with tate, chandler, stanzi, jvb, etc (not sure about banks because from what i have been told by players on the team with him they took out pass plays and reads because he couldnt do them). with that said we will see how davis does under kf and if he can put some life into our standard pro style.

Touche'...and its time....I wasn't anti KOK, but a new part can be a woderful thing. It forces hard rocks to move and shift to fit each others space. KOK will be better in Miami for it as well...IMO.

 

[hogeye]

Allegheny College Football '96 - YouTube

Watch the video and you will see that kok employed a pro-style offense. It is not a spread. In fact it looks to hold a lot of west coast offense tendencies. West Coast offense is a pro-style that uses more spread like formations but still tries to run between the tackles and has the qb under center. Spread formations are usually shotgun and have different reads and utilize the qb as more of a runner. People need to understand this.

What are you talking about the WCO utilizing spread like formations?

The WCO philosophy is, in its simplest form, a pass first philosophy. About 60 - 75% of the play calling is short passing routes that are called in lieu of running between the tackles. The formations in the WCO do not vary greatly from other pro-style offenses...that's part of the whole point of the offense, to keep the D honest, and not show anything by formation.

There are numerous "Spread" offenses in the college game as well. But in a nutshell there are two basic "Spread" attacks:

1. The "Spread Option" like West Virginia is known for with a running QB making option reads after the snap, often reading the DE.

2. The "Spread" like Texas Tech ran under Mike Leach which was predicated on spreading the field horizontally and vertically and running a fast paced offense where the QB gets the ball out of his hand quickly so players can make plays in open space.

 

[Foval21]

your understanding of the wco is actually a common misconception. the wco is a short passing opens up running lanes and deep passing theory. when you try to cover the short passes it open up inside running lanes and double moves for big plays. it tends to use 3 wrs, 1 te, 1 rb sets and the rb tends to be a pass catcher. today's offenses (ie new england, green bay, indy - with peyton, saints) are really run and shoot & wco hybrid type offenses.

 

[hogeye]

your understanding of the wco is actually a common misconception. the wco is a short passing opens up running lanes and deep passing theory. when you try to cover the short passes it open up inside running lanes and double moves for big plays. it tends to use 3 wrs, 1 te, 1 rb sets and the rb tends to be a pass catcher. today's offenses (ie new england, green bay, indy - with peyton, saints) are really run and shoot & wco hybrid type offenses.

Nothing you stated there contradicts a single thing I said.

You were attributing "spread" formations to the WCO without any clear definition of what you meant my "spread" formations. The WCO, and I am talking the Bill Walsh school since that's the center of the discussion when talking WCO, doesn't utilize many specialized formations. Certainly it doesn't utilize specialized formations out of necessity. It utilizes pretty much the same formations as run-centric, pro-style offenses.

My description of the WCO was predicated specifically on words uttered by Bill Walsh himself, so don't try to pretend that Bill Walsh doesn't know what the WCO is.

 

[Foval21]

my comment was based off of you saying that running between the tackles is basically an afterthought. it isnt. in fact running outside the tackles is harder in a west coast offense because the defense moves wider to take away outside passes. this opens up the between tackle running for big gains.

 

[hogeye]

my comment was based off of you saying that running between the tackles is basically an afterthought. it isnt. in fact running outside the tackles is harder in a west coast offense because the defense moves wider to take away outside passes. this opens up the between tackle running for big gains.

It is an after thought by nature of the offense. The WCO is predicated on the pass, not the run. The run, in general, is an after thought, Foval.

Walsh wasn't a cliche coach, Foval. He didn't pass to set up a run between the tackles. The entire offense was predicated on creating mismatches to put the offense in a position to have the advantage. If it was a run between the tackles, so be it. If it was a sweep around the end, so be it.

You're dodging the main point of my reply which is specific to your comments about formation. The WCO, by design, is a pro-style offense that isn't designed around any fancy formation changes. It's mainly a pass first philosophy within the same framework of formations that were prevalent in the pro game at the time.