Jon's new article

earlkoppelman

Well-Known Member
Iowa is not good in BB or FB...

Wisconsin is good in BB and FB...

There is no urgency to win at Iowa...

There is an urgency to win at Wisconsin...

Iowa's program is making money...

Wisconsin's program is making money...

AD leadership the difference? Great expectations vs Low expectations...
Fat cat mentality?
 

PCHawk

Well-Known Member
I'm a 49er fan. Does it make me a defeatist that I don't go on their message boards and demand more?
 

revkev73

Well-Known Member
Tell your lawyer to shut up...

Vegas beats Tampa Bay...4-1 on the road...#1 vs #2 team in the NHL...success!!!

I have a Punt/Pass/Kick trophy from when I was 13 years old...Elway has one...that is success!!!!

Plus, I won my town's open bowling tournament when I was 17...I quit after that...success!!!!

Plus I watched my NFL team from 6th grade, the Rams, win the superbowl while I was in a bar on Waikiki beach...won $100 too...success!!!!

Plus, I won $1,200 dollars when the Packers won their most recent superbowl...success!!!

I tire of it...
 

NikeHawk21

Well-Known Member
They've been fairly close. Wisconsin hasn't had the success of Nebraska in the 80s and 90s. According to some on here, Wisconsin must have a defeatist attitude.

I'm sure Iowa does strive for Wisconsin's success. But Wisconsin having Wisconsin's success has defied the odds. What are the odds that two programs from the Big 10 west can defy huge odds at the same exact time in history? It's not impossible. It's just highly unlikely. It doesn't mean we shouldn't strive for it. We just shouldn't fire coach after coach to try to beat those odds. And by "we" I mean the university of Iowa. Cause I ain't doin shit.
While you make some fair points, I still strongly disagree that the Iowa athletic department strives for the type of success that Wisconsin does. It’s pretty easy to see why.

When Wisconsin went to three strait Rose bowls under Bielama many fans were questioning him and his ability to win the big game. The athletic department wasn’t doling out new contract incentives and making him one of the highest paid coaches in the country. Meanwhile Iowa makes one rose bowl and gets pulverized and Kirk Ferentz gets the keys to the city. See the difference? You know it’s bad when people in the national media were absolutely shredding KF’s contract. Same thing with Chryst now, he’s winning 10+ games a year, just won a BCS bowl, think he’ll ever get paid more than Kirk? It’s pretty easy to see the picture that paints, we are lowly old Iowa and we can’t do better than Kirk. It doesn’t put any pressure on Kirk to perform.

Basketball is a slightly different animal but you can bet if we have the same athletic department and we consider ourselves a football school, than the pressure to succeed just isn’t what it should be.

As far as what you can do, I agree there isn’t much. The only way the athletic department would ever change is if people stopped showing up for games. The problem, as I’ve mentioned a few times in this thread, is that there isn’t many alternative entertainment options in Iowa. People have kids and they want to take them out to Kinnick on a Saturday, and they will do that regardless of if we are a 7 win team or a 10 win team. Season ticket holders and other fans use it as something to look forward to during the weeks in the fall. Iowa games are fun, so I can’t knock anyone for that. We have a passionate fanbase. Barta knows this and the money keeps pouring in. Quite frankly nothing will change until we get an AD that really wants to go to that next level, our current one couldn't care less.
 

Hawkfnntn

Well-Known Member
While you make some fair points, I still strongly disagree that the Iowa athletic department strives for the type of success that Wisconsin does. It’s pretty easy to see why.

When Wisconsin went to three strait Rose bowls under Bielama many fans were questioning him and his ability to win the big game. The athletic department wasn’t doling out new contract incentives and making him one of the highest paid coaches in the country. Meanwhile Iowa makes one rose bowl and gets pulverized and Kirk Ferentz gets the keys to the city. See the difference? You know it’s bad when people in the national media were absolutely shredding KF’s contract. Same thing with Chryst now, he’s winning 10+ games a year, just won a BCS bowl, think he’ll ever get paid more than Kirk? It’s pretty easy to see the picture that paints, we are lowly old Iowa and we can’t do better than Kirk. It doesn’t put any pressure on Kirk to perform.

Basketball is a slightly different animal but you can bet if we have the same athletic department and we consider ourselves a football school, than the pressure to succeed just isn’t what it should be.

As far as what you can do, I agree there isn’t much. The only way the athletic department would ever change is if people stopped showing up for games. The problem, as I’ve mentioned a few times in this thread, is that there isn’t many alternative entertainment options in Iowa. People have kids and they want to take them out to Kinnick on a Saturday, and they will do that regardless of if we are a 7 win team or a 10 win team. Season ticket holders and other fans use it as something to look forward to during the weeks in the fall. Iowa games are fun, so I can’t knock anyone for that. We have a passionate fanbase. Barta knows this and the money keeps pouring in. Quite frankly nothing will change until we get an AD that really wants to go to that next level, our current one couldn't care less.
What Wisky does is their business as far as I'm concerned. It's working for them that's for sure. But it's up to them to keep up with the Jones's if they want to. If not then that's their conscious decision. It's not up to Iowa to slow down or anyone else to let others catch up just based on what the 'pecking order' should be in others eyes. Do you feel it's wrong for Iowa to be paying Doyle what they are too? I'm a capitalist. I don't begrudge anyone for getting what they can get. The amount of years on KFs deal and guaranteed $/buyout are what give him security more so than just his high salary. The national media is a joke and I couldn't care less of their 2 cents. It's not up to them to set the market on what someone is worth or not. The less schools and ADs listen to them the better. So yeah you can either support the team in whatever way you like or not free country.
 

kicker22

Well-Known Member
If you give a coach 3 years then move on, give another coach 3 years then move on ,then give another coach 3 years then move on, you will be considered a coaching graveyard. You have a small chance of finding a great coach that takes you temporarily to the next level. If you do, that's awesome and we're all happy it worked out. But there is a far greater chance you will end up with another average coach (which isn't good enough) or a bad coach. Then you fire and move on. Just my guess but I would say there is about a 10% chance you would find your guy (about half of the time he leaves anyway) and about a 90% chance you end up labeled a coaching graveyard.

Point taken, but if you hold on to mediocre and embrace average what's the upside. I totally get the labeling of a coaching graveyard mentality, but what would be worse, taking chances until the right guy comes along or keeping a coach in place while the program is tanking.

As many have said bringing in the right coach isn't simply luck. The question is do we have an administration and athletic director in place capable of finding "the right fit". Unfortunately, I think we both agree on the answer to that.
 

kicker22

Well-Known Member
I dont think it's so much that they are not good enough to carry a team that lacks experience. I think the lack of a few additional guards and wings with breakdown ball skills and quickness are killing this team...because you just need to overplay JoBo, or any of the guards for that matter, which makes entry passes come from farther away and awkward angles. Shonn Morris nailed that last night, and it's a key, key thing. Iowa's lack of guards that scare anyone hinders their ability to space the floor correctly and run a competent half court offense.

I think you're absolutely right about this, however my concern is I don't see Fran recruiting players that fit this mold of player we need. I think this a major hole in our current recruiting and I don't see it being addressed next year either so I'm not sure how we improve enough next year to turn the corner.
 

PCHawk

Well-Known Member
While you make some fair points, I still strongly disagree that the Iowa athletic department strives for the type of success that Wisconsin does. It’s pretty easy to see why.

When Wisconsin went to three strait Rose bowls under Bielama many fans were questioning him and his ability to win the big game. The athletic department wasn’t doling out new contract incentives and making him one of the highest paid coaches in the country. Meanwhile Iowa makes one rose bowl and gets pulverized and Kirk Ferentz gets the keys to the city. See the difference? You know it’s bad when people in the national media were absolutely shredding KF’s contract. Same thing with Chryst now, he’s winning 10+ games a year, just won a BCS bowl, think he’ll ever get paid more than Kirk? It’s pretty easy to see the picture that paints, we are lowly old Iowa and we can’t do better than Kirk. It doesn’t put any pressure on Kirk to perform.

Basketball is a slightly different animal but you can bet if we have the same athletic department and we consider ourselves a football school, than the pressure to succeed just isn’t what it should be.

As far as what you can do, I agree there isn’t much. The only way the athletic department would ever change is if people stopped showing up for games. The problem, as I’ve mentioned a few times in this thread, is that there isn’t many alternative entertainment options in Iowa. People have kids and they want to take them out to Kinnick on a Saturday, and they will do that regardless of if we are a 7 win team or a 10 win team. Season ticket holders and other fans use it as something to look forward to during the weeks in the fall. Iowa games are fun, so I can’t knock anyone for that. We have a passionate fanbase. Barta knows this and the money keeps pouring in. Quite frankly nothing will change until we get an AD that really wants to go to that next level, our current one couldn't care less.

I guess I was kinda stuck in the mindset of all you can do is fire an average coach. I guess there are certain ways to demand more success out of your coach. I've just always assumed if you're a D1 level coach, pride is all the motivation you need. That's probably not true tho.

I seriously would like to know how Wisconsin has done it tho. Two of their coaches left and tanked at other schools. How the hell does that work?
 

PCHawk

Well-Known Member
Point taken, but if you hold on to mediocre and embrace average what's the upside. I totally get the labeling of a coaching graveyard mentality, but what would be worse, taking chances until the right guy comes along or keeping a coach in place while the program is tanking.

As many have said bringing in the right coach isn't simply luck. The question is do we have an administration and athletic director in place capable of finding "the right fit". Unfortunately, I think we both agree on the answer to that.

I think most programs hold onto average for more than a few years. (Average is a big window too) We held onto Davis for a long time after he showed he was who he was with his own guys. We waited for the right guy to come along, so we thought, and pulled the trigger. Now that's how you do it in my opinion. This season should definitely get Barta looking for that next guy. If he finds one, great. If he doesn't, I don't think Fran will tank the program so it's safe to wait until next year, or however long it takes to find the right guy. Especially if you have the mindset that he's gone even if he makes a sweet 16 run his last year. People are pretty pissed still that Davis got canned after making the sweet 16. But if you find the next big thing, you can't let one good season hold you back.
 

kicker22

Well-Known Member
I think most programs hold onto average for more than a few years. (Average is a big window too) We held onto Davis for a long time after he showed he was who he was with his own guys. We waited for the right guy to come along, so we thought, and pulled the trigger. Now that's how you do it in my opinion. This season should definitely get Barta looking for that next guy. If he finds one, great. If he doesn't, I don't think Fran will tank the program so it's safe to wait until next year, or however long it takes to find the right guy. Especially if you have the mindset that he's gone even if he makes a sweet 16 run his last year. People are pretty pissed still that Davis got canned after making the sweet 16. But if you find the next big thing, you can't let one good season hold you back.

I think the main thing is that you have to have someone in mind prior to termination. IF it's felt that guy is out there then you make the switch. I just wish the next AD was out there.
 

NikeHawk21

Well-Known Member
What Wisky does is their business as far as I'm concerned. It's working for them that's for sure. But it's up to them to keep up with the Jones's if they want to. If not then that's their conscious decision. It's not up to Iowa to slow down or anyone else to let others catch up just based on what the 'pecking order' should be in others eyes. Do you feel it's wrong for Iowa to be paying Doyle what they are too? I'm a capitalist. I don't begrudge anyone for getting what they can get. The amount of years on KFs deal and guaranteed $/buyout are what give him security more so than just his high salary. The national media is a joke and I couldn't care less of their 2 cents. It's not up to them to set the market on what someone is worth or not. The less schools and ADs listen to them the better. So yeah you can either support the team in whatever way you like or not free country.
I also don’t begrudge anyone else’s salary because I don’t care about other people’s money.

We are talking about how the UW athletic department is running circles around Iowa. Since KF started as a football coach he is averaging roughly 7.5 wins a year, while UW is averaging nearly 9.5 wins a year, through the span of four coaches. Kirk has been paid at a level top 15 level nationally for that last several years, while none of UW’s coaches have. Are Kirk’s 7.5 wins per year at Iowa really worth more than a different coaches 9.5 wins a year at UW? If that is truly the case then we really are lowly old Iowa and shouldn’t even be mentioned in the same breath as mighty UW. I personally don’t think that’s the case, I don’t think either school is all that much different, again other than an athletic department that wants it more.
 

PCHawk

Well-Known Member
There is one advantage of the amount of money, and the loyalty the Hawks have for Kirk. A coach would be a fool to not come here. It should make finding the right coach that much easier when it's time. Of course, none of that matters if we just hire from within.
 

Hawkfnntn

Well-Known Member
I also don’t begrudge anyone else’s salary because I don’t care about other people’s money.

We are talking about how the UW athletic department is running circles around Iowa. Since KF started as a football coach he is averaging roughly 7.5 wins a year, while UW is averaging nearly 9.5 wins a year, through the span of four coaches. Kirk has been paid at a level top 15 level nationally for that last several years, while none of UW’s coaches have. Are Kirk’s 7.5 wins per year at Iowa really worth more than a different coaches 9.5 wins a year at UW? If that is truly the case then we really are lowly old Iowa and shouldn’t even be mentioned in the same breath as mighty UW. I personally don’t think that’s the case, I don’t think either school is all that much different, again other than an athletic department that wants it more.
See your looking at it differently. I look at it as that's on Wisconsin their coaches & agents who negotiate and agree to it to try and keep up with the Jones's. Iowa isn't bankrupting themselves by paying what they are to Iowa's staff top to bottom. Not even remotely. Wisconsin getting more bang for their buck is great for the school. Doesn't make what Iowa's doing bad or wrong. If everyone agrees to what they are getting and nobody is hurting financially then what's the beef?
Iowa agreeing to pay a top flight competitive salary makes us a more desirable place to be. For KF and future coaches to want to coach at Iowa that's a huge part of it. If KF was being offered considerably less $ all these years he'd have probably been more apt to leave. Along with making it tougher to replace him if your not showing your willing to pay. Again if Iowa's budget was being stretched and it looked like they were in some kind of dire straits financially due to paying high salaries I'd lean the other way some. But their all living high on the hog over there.
 

Fryowa

Administrator
There is one advantage of the amount of money, and the loyalty the Hawks have for Kirk. A coach would be a fool to not come here. It should make finding the right coach that much easier when it's time. Of course, none of that matters if we just hire from within.
I think it’s a matter of when, not if we hire from within. Which makes me want to puke.

I would like to believe that if Iowa replaces Barta it would be an opportunity to make sure an outsider is brought in as head coach, but I also believe that Kirk is one who will make that decision no matter who the AD is...and that decision will be Brian Ferentz. Kirk is firmly entrenched with the major donor base and the administration loves him. He is his own boss in about every sense of the word.
 

BryceC

Well-Known Member
You could be right. That would mean the recruiting services were off, which is possible. But it would also mean Fran has a bad eye for talent. And that would be another argument for finding a coach with a good eye for talent.

How were the recruiting services off? Right now I'd say most of the players on the roster have met or exceeded their recruiting rankings.
 

NikeHawk21

Well-Known Member
See your looking at it differently. I look at it as that's on Wisconsin their coaches & agents who negotiate and agree to it to try and keep up with the Jones's. Iowa isn't bankrupting themselves by paying what they are to Iowa's staff top to bottom. Not even remotely. Wisconsin getting more bang for their buck is great for the school. Doesn't make what Iowa's doing bad or wrong. If everyone agrees to what they are getting and nobody is hurting financially then what's the beef?
Iowa agreeing to pay a top flight competitive salary makes us a more desirable place to be. For KF and future coaches to want to coach at Iowa that's a huge part of it. If KF was being offered considerably less $ all these years he'd have probably been more apt to leave. Along with making it tougher to replace him if your not showing your willing to pay. Again if Iowa's budget was being stretched and it looked like they were in some kind of dire straits financially due to paying high salaries I'd lean the other way some. But their all living high on the hog over there.
To me it’s about the message you are sending. You’re saying we need to pay KF because we can’t afford to lose his 7.5 wins a year.

Again this is a discussion about bringing Iowa’s athletic success to higher levels. It’s not about money. Iowa’s athletic department is in great shape financially and will continue that way regardless of if we win 7 games a year or 10 games a year.

We have a top 20 athletic department in terms of revenue. This is about harnessing that and taking our programs to the next level. Wisconsin has been able to do it with far more success than Iowa. The question is how do we get there? I think every Iowa fan would like to take that step to the next level.
 

Hawkfnntn

Well-Known Member
To me it’s about the message you are sending. You’re saying we need to pay KF because we can’t afford to lose his 7.5 wins a year.

Again this is a discussion about bringing Iowa’s athletic success to higher levels. It’s not about money. Iowa’s athletic department is in great shape financially and will continue that way regardless of if we win 7 games a year or 10 games a year.

We have a top 20 athletic department in terms of revenue. This is about harnessing that and taking our programs to the next level. Wisconsin has been able to do it with far more success than Iowa. The question is how do we get there? I think every Iowa fan would like to take that step to the next level.
I see where your going. But I don't think paying our coaches less is the answer to that equation either. Since we both agree the money is there. Would you rather the school/athletic department hoard it or pay a competitive salary to their coaches? It's not like KF is at the top now either. Saban and Meyer are on a different planet with what they are making and rightfully so.
I guess the next question I have is what should Iowa pay for a new coach. Take BF out of the picture say he's not even in it. To get an outside coach to come in where does Iowa want to start a new one at? Same as where KF is now? A little less? A lot less? Dare I say more? When KF steps down it'll be interesting to say the least how it plays out
 

mopkins

King Kong
How were the recruiting services off? Right now I'd say most of the players on the roster have met or exceeded their recruiting rankings.

You're not wrong. Believe it or not, right now Tyler Cook is on the same trajectory stat-wise as Aaron White. Obviously they're different players but their stats from their Freshman/Sophomore years are very similar. The difference is that when White was a Freshman, Gatens was a senior. When White was a Sophomore, Marble was a Junior. There were upperclassmen able to protect the youth. This year there is none of that.

Cook's numbers this year are all up from last year. Points, rebounds, shooting %, free throw %. He's also added a decent outside shot.

The team this year is just way too young and being led by Sophomores who aren't ready for it yet. Every year Fran has had a senior leader to carry the load (Gatens, Marble, White, Uthoff, Jok), and this year he doesn't even have a Junior leader. Not to trash Baer, but he's a solid role player, not a "take charge" leader.
 

mopkins

King Kong
I see where your going. But I don't think paying our coaches less is the answer to that equation either. Since we both agree the money is there. Would you rather the school/athletic department hoard it or pay a competitive salary to their coaches? It's not like KF is at the top now either. Saban and Meyer are on a different planet with what they are making and rightfully so.
I guess the next question I have is what should Iowa pay for a new coach. Take BF out of the picture say he's not even in it. To get an outside coach to come in where does Iowa want to start a new one at? Same as where KF is now? A little less? A lot less? Dare I say more? When KF steps down it'll be interesting to say the least how it plays out

Scott Frost is getting $5M a year for 7 years. Its all guaranteed.
 

NikeHawk21

Well-Known Member
I see where your going. But I don't think paying our coaches less is the answer to that equation either. Since we both agree the money is there. Would you rather the school/athletic department hoard it or pay a competitive salary to their coaches? It's not like KF is at the top now either. Saban and Meyer are on a different planet with what they are making and rightfully so.
I guess the next question I have is what should Iowa pay for a new coach. Take BF out of the picture say he's not even in it. To get an outside coach to come in where does Iowa want to start a new one at? Same as where KF is now? A little less? A lot less? Dare I say more? When KF steps down it'll be interesting to say the least how it plays out
That all depends on who we hire. If we hire an up and comer we will pay him less and if he succeeds we will increase him. Let’s reward sustained success. Whatever we do let’s not get to a point where we reward mediocrity, which is what many of us feel has been done with KF.

You’re really hung up on money, but that’s not the only thing. It was the unecassary extensions. Make KF coach with a fire in his belly. When the fire started getting hottest around here was right around the time KF put together a 12-0 run. Funny how that goes.

And again, none of this explains why UW is running circles around Iowa in athletics. You’re just basically saying we have enough money to pay our coach which is true. But how can we get to that level that UW has sustained for the last 15 years? That’s the question... and it remains unanswered.
 

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