I've had enough of this experiment

[MrPlastic]

Of the 5-6 turnovers White was involved in 2-3 as he was positioned out around the 3 point arc. He made several lazy passes into our post player. White's defender was sagging and an another ISU player was also in the passing lane but he tried it multiple times. I have a hard time characterizing those sequences as great defense. The result for ISU was great. It looked more like stupidity to me especially after the first one. The real issue is they were daring White to shoot the jumper which he was reluctant to do. This goes back to my point about being able to shoot and put the ball in the basket from multiple locations on the court.

Not saying defense is a waste of time but saying offense can really spark a team and win a lot of games. I am not certain you can take a group of less talented players and mold them into an elite defensive unit. It takes talent, skill, athleticism and yes lots of practice to play elite team defense.

ISU blew us out of the water by hitting 10 shots in a row from layups to 3 pointers. Yes the turnovers gave them opportunities but putting the ball in basket won the game. Had they missed half of those shots we might have survived.

I agree with you on the turnovers but I attribute most of those to Fran's poor half court game. As you stated White was involved in 3 of those because of his inability to shoot. He's always been a poor shooter so don't plan on that changing any time soon. I think overall this is a poor shooting team, so don't look for that to change either. Fran need's to go back to the drawing board on his half court game, it's bad. So don't look for us to be a tremendous scoring team unless it's with the transistion game, and teams figured that out on us a long time ago.

If this team is going to turn the corner and avoid the brick wall they are about to run into, they better step up defensively big time. ISU put up 90 on us at home. I've been to several practices watching Floyd and Eustachey teach defense, and athleticism helps but it mainly takes effort ( heart, guts, balls and brains) and a good defensive scheme. I think the scheme and effort both need a ton of improvement.

 

[1977Hawkeye]

Under Alford: 8 seasons. Three 20+ win seasons. Three NCAA tournament appearances, 1 win. Three NIT appearances, 4 wins.

Under Fran: 4 seasons. Two 20+ win seasons. One NCAA tournament appearance, 0 wins. Two NIT appearances, 5 wins.

We are in our 5th season under Fran. Judging from the results we are at least as good as Alford.

I would tend to agree, especially when it comes to NIT wins, but NIT wins aren't really the goal. Fran has work to do if he's going to match Alford's 3 NCAA appearances in 8 years. The 1 NCAA win shouldn't be too hard to match, but will we see 2 more NCAA tournament appearances the next 4 years, including this one? Jury's still out on that, but this team needs to figure some things out (especially shooting the ball) if it's going to make it this year, and losing White/Olaseni isn't going to help for next year, either. It's too hard to know what to expect 2+ years out from now, but I guess you could say that my optimism with the Fran era is waning a bit. I wonder if things have plateaued..

Going by the eye test and W/L record, I'd say the results so far are pretty comparable to the Alford era. I'm not sure THAT is the goal, either. Most of us were generally dissatisfied with the results Alford produced.

Bottom line, we're still yet to have a coach that has matched what Tom Davis produced, at least in terms of NCAA appearances and results. 9 trips in 13 years, and never a first round loss.

 

[okeefe4prez]

I would tend to agree, especially when it comes to NIT wins, but NIT wins aren't really the goal. Fran has work to do if he's going to match Alford's 3 NCAA appearances in 8 years. The 1 NCAA win shouldn't be too hard to match, but will we see 2 more NCAA tournament appearances the next 4 years, including this one? Jury's still out on that, but this team needs to figure some things out (especially shooting the ball) if it's going to make it this year, and losing White/Olaseni isn't going to help for next year, either. It's too hard to know what to expect 2+ years out from now, but I guess you could say that my optimism with the Fran era is waning a bit. I wonder if things have plateaued..

Going by the eye test and W/L record, I'd say the results so far are pretty comparable to the Alford era. I'm not sure THAT is the goal, either. Most of us were generally dissatisfied with the results Alford produced.

Bottom line, we're still yet to have a coach that has matched what Tom Davis produced, at least in terms of NCAA appearances and results. 9 trips in 13 years, and never a first round loss.

Asking for a Tom Davis level performance is tough, too. The landscape has changed a lot and the mid majors are big problems for many programs. Heck, I don't care if we stink 2 out of every 4 years but then we make the tourney in the other two years and have a decent run in one of those years. When I look at how Illinois and Indiana have managed to sink, I totally understand what has happened to Iowa and we certainly aren't immune from the forces that have harmed the other "I" schools in the conference, but I am hopeful for at least two decent tourney runs per decade. Davis looked like he was becoming incapable of providing those and the program right now looks like it is set with a high water mark of bubble team or decent NIT team, which based on what I remember of Iowa basketball in the '80's saddens me.

 

[InGoodCo]

So, people think that the B1G was as good as it is now when Alford coached at Iowa? That's rich. It was a bad loss as far as how it went down, but not as far as to who it was against. We got boat raced in the 2nd half by one of the better teams in the country, if you are trying to look into any bigger pictures than that, well it's a reach.

 

[hawkforlife9]

With NC win and some pretty easy BIG competition, we're in. Contract extension! Nice Raise. Life is good.

 

[tweeterhawk]

I don't have to guess for you. You're one of the "Wasteland Trolls" who likes to get people wound up by praising Alford. Weak brah, very weak.

You do realize, don't you, that Lickliter recruited better players than what Fran has so far put on the floor?

 

[trj]

You do realize, don't you, that Lickliter recruited better players than what Fran has so far put on the floor?

Which means what? The "Butler Way" kicks in about 2017?

 

[Knight78]

Of the 5-6 turnovers White was involved in 2-3 as he was positioned out around the 3 point arc. He made several lazy passes into our post player. White's defender was sagging and an another ISU player was also in the passing lane but he tried it multiple times. I have a hard time characterizing those sequences as great defense. The result for ISU was great. It looked more like stupidity to me especially after the first one. The real issue is they were daring White to shoot the jumper which he was reluctant to do. This goes back to my point about being able to shoot and put the ball in the basket from multiple locations on the court.

Not saying defense is a waste of time but saying offense can really spark a team and win a lot of games. I am not certain you can take a group of less talented players and mold them into an elite defensive unit. It takes talent, skill, athleticism and yes lots of practice to play elite team defense.

ISU blew us out of the water by hitting 10 shots in a row from layups to 3 pointers. Yes the turnovers gave them opportunities but putting the ball in basket won the game. Had they missed half of those shots we might have survived.

So while ISU makes 10 shots, we only take 4. Granted there were some bad passes, but many bad passes simply look bad because of good defense. However, with 10 possessions each we only get 4 shots. That's defense.

 

[1977Hawkeye]

Asking for a Tom Davis level performance is tough, too. The landscape has changed a lot and the mid majors are big problems for many programs. Heck, I don't care if we stink 2 out of every 4 years but then we make the tourney in the other two years and have a decent run in one of those years. When I look at how Illinois and Indiana have managed to sink, I totally understand what has happened to Iowa and we certainly aren't immune from the forces that have harmed the other "I" schools in the conference, but I am hopeful for at least two decent tourney runs per decade. Davis looked like he was becoming incapable of providing those and the program right now looks like it is set with a high water mark of bubble team or decent NIT team, which based on what I remember of Iowa basketball in the '80's saddens me.

I'd be happy enough with the scenario you outlined - up and down but in the tournament pretty often and making a run here and there. I often wonder how I would've felt about Steve Alford if that 05-06 team had made a run to the Sweet 16 or Elite 8 instead of folding in the first round..

Not sure I agree that Davis was looking like he couldn't get it done anymore, given that he was in the NCAA Tournament 3 of his last 4 seasons, including a Sweet 16 in his last.

1995-96: 6 seed
1996-97: 8 seed (2nd place Big 10 finish.. 8 seed???)
1997-98: NIT
1998-99: 5 seed

And if Davis had stuck around, maybe the roster in 1999-00 would've looked a lot better. Would Nick Collison have been a Hawk instead of a Jayhawk? Also, I'm not sure what circumstances led to his departure after the 1999 season, but what about Joey Range? What other recruits might Davis have pulled in if not for his lame duck status? Guess we'll never know, but that 1999-00 team might've looked a whole lot different if Davis had been retained & extended.

 

[atomicblue224]

I clicked on this thread and I got this website, what the heck is that?http://www.divinecaroline.com/shop/...2&pid=115&pv=fbc7427d676f40a5a3938c58631f57ee

 

[SpecialKHawk]

So while ISU makes 10 shots, we only take 4. Granted there were some bad passes, but many bad passes simply look bad because of good defense. However, with 10 possessions each we only get 4 shots. That's defense.

Not only do I absolutely love the Miller & Deace podcasts on this site but if you have not listened to the following podcast I would suggest doing so. It's out of KXNO the sports radio station in Des Moines and it's the called 'Monday Evening Rebound' on Ken Miller's show who I have always liked listening to. This show features 2 former D-1 basketball players that we all know and love from Iowa and Iowa State in Jess Settles and Jake Sullivan. They do a great, great job of giving analysis.

Link; (Under Media-Podcasts at www.kxno.com if this does not work)
http://www.kxno.com/media/podcast-ken-miller-MattandMiller/1215-monday-evening-rebound-25685434/

I would suggest listening to this because they talk about a wide range of issues related to both teams but especially Iowa given our struggles against ISU this past Friday. I think you will find some aspects that support your emphasis on defense but just as importantly a number that support my stance that our offense (not making shots) is critical to winning and effects our ability to play sound defense.

Anyway.... good stuff on this site with debate and podcasts as well as at KXNO with these type of shows. They do this every Monday evening and did this for football as well with Chuck Long & Austen Arnaud.