Is Shohei Ohtani the greatest of all time?
- Thread starter CP87
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Hawkboys
Well-Known Member
No, but is in top 10. I reserve the top 2-3 to ones to redefine their sport. Babe and MJ.
Fryowa
Administrator
He's not even the greatest MLB player. People put too much fanfare into the pitching thing. Yes, it cool, and the past three years he's had video game offensive production but he's played 7 years total and only 3 of those at an otherworldly level. It's gonna take a whole lot longer to be the GOAT.
99topdawg
Well-Known Member
Would you consider Bonds in the GOAT conversation?
I used to be absolutely against it until I started reading about the different PED's that have been used since the 50's. I think you have to include everyone of them or none of them, and not base it on the extent to which they used it or were helped by it. I still think he's trash and I hope he doesn't get into the HOF, but I have at least started to take what he did and put a mental asterisk by it instead of blowing it all off. He put up those numbers. Nobody can deny it.
Roids or not, he had a helluva swing. Pushing aside what he did is saying that everyone that does roids and has an incredible build/body could do the same. Some people talk like the roids were 100% the reason why he was so dominant but turn around and say that he was a HOF'er before he bulked up. Hitting a baseball is not easy. The way he could barrel up balls was incredible. The roids made him quicker, which gave him the slightest amount more time to diagnose a pitch (which is huge). They also made those he barreled up go farther. But still, what he did was awesome and I'm amazed by what he did (but NOT how he did it). Here's what I mean by being amazed by what he did: Link
To me, is this whole GOAT conversation about the absolute GOAT or the clean GOAT? I'm recently put myself on the fence as to whether or not to consider him, but no one can deny that he and others had a cheat code that many others didn't use. I'd say I'm a fan of what he did but not necessarily him. That said, there are some videos of him on Youtube, etc where he talks about hitting. Incredible stuff. Physical, mental, psychological things that go way beyond the Tom Emanski stuff. I could listen to him all day.
I honestly don't know baseball at all, I just hear 50-50, and combine that with the fact he is also a dominant pitcher, and it kind of blows me away. Has there ever been anyone else who could pull that off? Maybe Babe Ruth, but the MLB of 100 years ago is a lot different from that of today.
I always cheered for Bonds because he was on my 1994 rotisserie league team. I didn't know squat about baseball, but I knew he was good, and he was one of the only offensive bright spots.
Other random players I cheered for their entire careers because they made their way onto one of my fantasy teams at some point:
Trent Dilfer
Brett Favre
Irving Fryar
Tim Brown
Fryowa
Administrator
I'll admit I can't stand Barry Bonds. His attitude toward his coaches and teammates, and the thing that gets me the most is his total 100% denial and not coming clean about it when it's SO blatantly obvious for even a non sports person to see. His freaking head practically doubled in size and there's no amount of lifting or working out that will make your skull get bigger in your 30s.
Yeah the guy could undeniably hit and you have to have the vision, reaction, and timing no matter how big you are. But the guy denying it for decades is a total affront to guys like Hank Aaron who by every single account was a great person, great teammate, and had a great respect for the game.
We get it, everyone was doing it so you had to keep up, but you're flat out lying and spitting in the face of the greats and the game, Barry.
For Bonds to say and think that his accomplishment was bigger than Aaron's is false number one, and a disgrace number two. So me personally...I understand how good he was but I can't call him the goat. The argument he had with Jim Leyland really shows the kind of guy he is and the fact that he never had any friends on his teams and how teammates just tolerated him speaks a lot.
Fryowa
Administrator
He's the best player in baseball by ten miles right now, but 3 years in baseball terms isn't near long enough. He's got to show that he can maintain it.
99topdawg
Well-Known Member
Yep, the worst part of it all is the guys that did it right getting their records broken. Hank deserves better than that. I do enjoy the video of Leyland ripping his shit. Absolutely love it.
The denial is comical. If Darryl Strawberry says he didn't snort coke (and wouldn't have been caught with it), we all know he did but there isn't the obvious proof of it. For Bonds though, him denying he did roids is like the Hulk claiming he's still Bruce Banner.
A side note. I think his walk total is inflated because of the fact that he never played with a hall of famer. He doesn't have a Juan Soto or Lou Gehrig hitting behind him so I'd walk him too. That may make his home run totals more impressive.
To be clear from my previous post. Bonds is a dick. No question. I did plug my nose and enjoyed watching him play just because of what he could do. I because like reading the crazy "other" stats he and others put up and the ones like:
If you take away Hank Aaron's home runs, he'd still have 3000 hits
Nolan Ryan pitched 32 games at the age of 42 and averaged 127 pitches per game
If Tony Gwynn could've gone 0-1099 to end his career and he still would've hit over .300
In 7132 career at-bats, Joe Sewell struck out swinging once.
In 8132 career at-bats, Joey Votto popped out to the pitcher one time.
Adrian Beltre stole exactly 1 base each season from 2011-2018. In 10 seasons from 2009-2018, he popped out 9 times
For 6 years in a row, David Ortiz incorrectly picked the wrong team to win the WS.
I've got a lot more saved up but I have to teach math or something right now.
99topdawg
Well-Known Member
99topdawg
Well-Known Member
I wonder if he'd even make it to the MLB, but i really have no idea. There aren't a lot of guys that hit like him style wise, so I wonder if they'd try to change him. Same with Maddux. He had decent velocity when he was young but not enough to be that power pitcher they look for today.
Having said that, there's no doubt in my mind that they'd both be good players today. Players can play.
Fryowa
Administrator
Yeah a guy like him athletically probably wouldn’t make it to the bigs which is a shame. Today if you can’t run you have to hit home runs. Nobody cares about base hits, walks, or moving runners over.
NCHawker
Well-Known Member
speaking of Trent Dilfer. New article
A breakdown of UAB's Trent Dilfer Debacle (Dilfsaster?)
This is the story of a program which had a lot to be proud of, but decided its own remarkable revival was less interesting than ESPN's 248th-most likable personality.
rodgersherman.substack.com
