Is Kirk over rated?

[HawkGold]

Minimizing Hayden's accomplishments has become a hip thing to do, much like saying the Beatles were just a boy band. Without Hayden there would be no Kirk (at least not in his current form).

Both were great hires for IOWA. Hayden sagged a bit in the end do to age and cancer. (though 3 consecutive bowls prior to his last season in '98 isn't exactly "failing") Kirk has sagged at times due to his lack of imagination and stubbornness.

Each had advantages and disadvantages in their tenures.

I don't get the HF v KF mentality. We've had great times with both. I hated HF's Prevent Defense which prevented a few wins in my opinion. I personally thought Vlasic was the better QB (what a great situation to have that argument)

I was at one of Fry's last wins on the road. He came over and warmly and humbly thanked the crowd. It was late in a not so good year. He was emotional about it. That was great moment. It was cold and wet. Maybe my favorite moment as a Hawk fan among many.

 

[hawkdrummer1]

I've had the chance to meet Coach Fry 3 different times...once as a student, later at his book signing and lastly the weekend they dedicated the statue. Same guy, always a clever word, always happy to engage his supporters.

 

[MelroseHawkins]

My kid is a Packers fan, so yes I did. He didn't start out well, but he seems solid. The dude likes to talk that's for sure. He's actually pretty approachable in person. My take is that he's a great HC as long as he has assistants that can keep order in dotting i's and crossing t's. My guess is he like's Iowa players.

So, what you are saying is that he's a good HC, as long as he has great assistants under him!? Hmm.

 

[Hawkfnntn]

HF didn't have a chance to use that talent coming in. But he did set KF up nicely. I"m not anti KF, but I certainly don't know how to grade him out. Would he have won 4 or more? Who knows.I do think the 01 team was on the verge of playing on the national team, but that would have been with Banks as QB who wouldn't have been there w/o KF (who never did it again..go figure). The whole coaching world has changed since HF retired so it's hard to tell, but if my memory is correct, Iowa wanted an Iowa guy.

Who knows how Stoops would have been. I do think he would have been more of a gamer. Results? Who knows.

If that was the case he would have had more than 1 win his first yr and 3 the second... I just don't see how leaving him a roster that was probably going to only do what they did regardless of who was coaching it is seen as 'setting him up nicely'. What happened to Gene Chizek when he went to Auburn could be defined as that. I'm sure I could think of other examples too but even if as your saying he had some young talent that 3 yrs down the road could turn into a 7 win season (that was year 3 mind you) is considered leaving him a good situation of any sort. How many of the senior kids on the 02 11 win team were HF recruits? That to me should be crutch of your argument. If your saying that first Orange bowl team that KF had was mostly HF recruits I would concede that. But that was year 4.. A whole lot had to happen before that and not many would argue that by year 4 a coaches program is their own by then

 

[HawkGold]

So, what you are saying is that he's a good HC, as long as he has great assistants under him!? Hmm.

Most HC's are better with good asst's. Zook is anything but a technical organizer. Everyone who meets the guy likes him He and Locksley worked well together (no comment on ethics). Locksley is a terrible HC, but was a great Asst. Zook reminds me a bit of Rodney Dangerfield. Turner was more of the organizer and needed likeable guys around him. Actually met him too. His wife was a real sweetheart and buffered him.

People are funny. I think I mentioned actually having lunch with Wayne Laravee. Dude is actually kind of shy. None of these guys are larger than life itself. It's a combo of being in the right place at the right time, not giving up and who you have around you.

Many people don't realize Mr Rogers mom was an early big investor in CBS where Fred got his first job because of it. She held onto her stock and it paid big. Know an eccentric lady who invested 5k in Apple in the late 80s and held onto it.

Illinois made a mistake in firing Turner and Zook. IL would look a lot like Iowa now. KF isn't special. He's a survivor who happened to land at Iowa and managed to survive because he had enough to have some really good years and do decently overall. He really didn't deserve the job.

 

[HawkGold]

If that was the case he would have had more than 1 win his first yr and 3 the second... I just don't see how leaving him a roster that was probably going to only do what they did regardless of who was coaching it is seen as 'setting him up nicely'. What happened to Gene Chizek when he went to Auburn could be defined as that. I'm sure I could think of other examples too but even if as your saying he had some young talent that 3 yrs down the road could turn into a 7 win season (that was year 3 mind you) is considered leaving him a good situation of any sort. How many of the senior kids on the 02 11 win team were HF recruits? That to me should be crutch of your argument. If your saying that first Orange bowl team that KF had was mostly HF recruits I would concede that. But that was year 4.. A whole lot had to happen before that and not many would argue that by year 4 a coaches program is their own by then

I didn't say that. Brad Banks was the reason. KF was smart enough to let the guy sometimes do his own thing. KF's biggest mistake was not making BB the QB from the start of his junior year. A magic run that year wasn't far away. I do think HF would have done quite well with that talent in 02 as well even w/o BB. The 01 team was a lot weaker w/o BB.

September 1 11:00 AM Kent State* Kinnick Stadium • Iowa City, IA ESPN+ W 51–0 56,091
September 8 11:00 AM Miami University* Kinnick Stadium • Iowa City, IA ESPN+ W 44–19 58,291
September 29 11:00 AM Penn State

Kinnick Stadium • Iowa City, IA ESPN W 24–18 69,422
October 6 11:00 AM at No. 18 Purdue Ross–Ade Stadium • West Lafayette, IN ESPN L 14–23 58,888
October 13 11:00 AM at Michigan State Spartan Stadium • East Lansing, MI ESPN2 L 28–31 73,680
October 20 11:00 AM Indiana Kinnick Stadium • Iowa City, IA ESPN+ W 42–28 68,295
October 27 2:30 PM No. 8 Michigan Kinnick Stadium • Iowa City, IA ABC L 26–32 70,397
November 3 11:00 AM at Wisconsin Camp Randall Stadium • Madison, WI (Rivalry) ESPN+ L 28–34 79,421
November 10 11:00 AM at Northwestern Ryan Field • Evanston, IL ESPN+ W 59–16 36,458
November 17 12:00 PM Minnesota Kinnick Stadium • Iowa City, IA (Battle for the Floyd of Rosedale) W 42–24 65,491
November 24 11:30 AM at Iowa State* Jack Trice Stadium • Ames, IA (Battle for the Cy-Hawk Trophy) FSN L 14–17 51,042
December 29 2:30 PM vs. Texas Tech* Alamodome • San Antonio, TX (Alamo Bowl) ESPN W 19–16 65,232

 

[Hawkfnntn]

I didn't say that. Brad Banks was the reason. KF was smart enough to let the guy sometimes do his own thing. KF's biggest mistake was not making BB the QB from the start of his junior year. A magic run that year wasn't far away. I do think HF would have done quite well with that talent in 02 as well even w/o BB. The 01 team was a lot weaker w/o BB.

September 1 11:00 AM Kent State* Kinnick Stadium • Iowa City, IA ESPN+ W 51–0 56,091
September 8 11:00 AM Miami University* Kinnick Stadium • Iowa City, IA ESPN+ W 44–19 58,291
September 29 11:00 AM Penn State

Kinnick Stadium • Iowa City, IA ESPN W 24–18 69,422
October 6 11:00 AM at No. 18 Purdue Ross–Ade Stadium • West Lafayette, IN ESPN L 14–23 58,888
October 13 11:00 AM at Michigan State Spartan Stadium • East Lansing, MI ESPN2 L 28–31 73,680
October 20 11:00 AM Indiana Kinnick Stadium • Iowa City, IA ESPN+ W 42–28 68,295
October 27 2:30 PM No. 8 Michigan Kinnick Stadium • Iowa City, IA ABC L 26–32 70,397
November 3 11:00 AM at Wisconsin Camp Randall Stadium • Madison, WI (Rivalry) ESPN+ L 28–34 79,421
November 10 11:00 AM at Northwestern Ryan Field • Evanston, IL ESPN+ W 59–16 36,458
November 17 12:00 PM Minnesota Kinnick Stadium • Iowa City, IA (Battle for the Floyd of Rosedale) W 42–24 65,491
November 24 11:30 AM at Iowa State* Jack Trice Stadium • Ames, IA (Battle for the Cy-Hawk Trophy) FSN L 14–17 51,042
December 29 2:30 PM vs. Texas Tech* Alamodome • San Antonio, TX (Alamo Bowl) ESPN W 19–16 65,232

I myself often wondered about that what if as well. What we don't know is at what point would it have been prudent to best make that move? I don't think BB was ready day 1 he was a transfer and hadn't been there too long. I don't think he was their for spring ball prior to that year. It was McCanns senior year obviously so he had a great grasp of the offense and all that even with his limitations as a player he did ok at times. So I could see starting him at first and having a slow hook. But hindsight is always what it is.. We weren't at practices in those days to really know..
02 was the perfect storm of weapons for BB too. With his cousin CJ Jones, Mo Brown, Ramon Ochoa and Dallas Clark along with Freddy Russell running the ball. The Oline being lead by Gallery... That was the start of Iowa being the bullies of the BIG on both sides of the ball for sure was 02 to me

 

[Hawkfnntn]

Minimizing Hayden's accomplishments has become a hip thing to do, much like saying the Beatles were just a boy band. Without Hayden there would be no Kirk (at least not in his current form).

Both were great hires for IOWA. Hayden sagged a bit in the end do to age and cancer. (though 3 consecutive bowls prior to his last season in '98 isn't exactly "failing") Kirk has sagged at times due to his lack of imagination and stubbornness.

Each had advantages and disadvantages in their tenures.

Hope your not misconstruing what I wrote as minimizing HFs accomplishments. Just calling a spade a spade. I loved everything about him. I just can't see an argument for saying that Iowa was in a great or good position as a program at the time he retired. If it was KF wouldn't have been the next coach. They could have gotten a higher profile/bigger better named coach than KF. HawkGold mentioned KFs resume up to that point not being a whole lot to brag about which I agreed with. One can say Fry was great overall but yet the program was in rough shape when he left at the same time can't I?

 

[HawkGold]

Hope your not misconstruing what I wrote as minimizing HFs accomplishments. Just calling a spade a spade. I loved everything about him. I just can't see an argument for saying that Iowa was in a great or good position as a program at the time he retired. If it was KF wouldn't have been the next coach. They could have gotten a higher profile/bigger better named coach than KF. HawkGold mentioned KFs resume up to that point not being a whole lot to brag about which I agreed with. One can say Fry was great overall but yet the program was in rough shape when he left at the same time can't I?

It was in response to your comment about Iowa being in bad shape or something like that. It wasn't.

 

[hawkdrummer1]

Hope your not misconstruing what I wrote as minimizing HFs accomplishments. Just calling a spade a spade. I loved everything about him. I just can't see an argument for saying that Iowa was in a great or good position as a program at the time he retired. If it was KF wouldn't have been the next coach. They could have gotten a higher profile/bigger better named coach than KF. HawkGold mentioned KFs resume up to that point not being a whole lot to brag about which I agreed with. One can say Fry was great overall but yet the program was in rough shape when he left at the same time can't I?

I hear ya, but the "rough shape" thing is a bit overblown IMHO. If you were there when he took over in 1979, you might have a little different perspective on what "rough shape" looks like. 1998 was a bad year, but just one year.

When Hayden retired, Iowa had a National name, improved facilities and plenty of success to brag about. When he took the job, Iowa football was a joke..and not a very good one. He wasn't on his game in 1998, for obvious reasons, and the loss of many great asst coaches took it's toll. So he didn't finish strong, no doubt. I watched him walk off the field at the Humpty Dome...he looked beaten.

As for "big names", we could have had Bobby Stoops if "the committee" didn't get constipated. Look at many of the coaches who are in the TOP 25 now, they weren't "big names" before their current job. They came up from smaller conferences or as assistants. So finding a guy like that (which would fit Ferentz) is an equally successful strategy.

But rough shape? Naw. Programs in rough shape don't go to bowl games 3 out of 4 years (when there were only 20 bowl games). In need of an infusion of new energy...Yes. But the foundation was plenty strong and Iowa was now seen as a winner...not a loser.

 

[Hawkfnntn]

I hear ya, but the "rough shape" thing is a bit overblown IMHO. If you were there when he took over in 1979, you might have a little different perspective on what "rough shape" looks like. 1998 was a bad year, but just one year.

When Hayden retired, Iowa had a National name, improved facilities and plenty of success to brag about. When he took the job, Iowa football was a joke..and not a very good one. He wasn't on his game in 1998, for obvious reasons, and the loss of many great asst coaches took it's toll. So he didn't finish strong, no doubt. I watched him walk off the field at the Humpty Dome...he looked beaten.

As for "big names", we could have had Bobby Stoops if "the committee" didn't get constipated. Look at many of the coaches who are in the TOP 25 now, they weren't "big names" before their current job. They came up from smaller conferences or as assistants. So finding a guy like that (which would fit Ferentz) is an equally successful strategy.

But rough shape? Naw. Programs in rough shape don't go to bowl games 3 out of 4 years (when there were only 20 bowl games). In need of an infusion of new energy...Yes. But the foundation was plenty strong and Iowa was now seen as a winner...not a loser.

Well if your going to compare the two situations each took over then absolutely your right. No debate there. But that's not what I was doing. I was just on it's face value saying Hayden left the cupboard pretty empty for the next couple yrs and it looked like that was how it was going to be ahead of time. Prior to KF coaching a game nobody had delusions of grandjur that he'd get Iowa to a bowl game right away. Scott Frost has way higher (how realistic those are remains to be seen)expectations then what KF had at the time.

Bob Stoops wasn't 'Big game' Bob Stoops at the time. I mean he was looked at as the 'next big thing' kinda like Frost is now. But as is the case with Frost there was no guarantee of his being able to set the world on fire like he kinda ended up doing down there. But heck he hadn't been a HC yet like Frost has for a couple years now. We may have looked at Stoops as a no doubt about it great hire (and he would have been) but the rest of college football probably wouldn't have till after the fact.

Counting Frys last yr Iowa went 3 yrs in a row not going to bowls counting KFs first two seasons and they weren't even close...

Was program better than it was when Fry took over? Oh hell yes no doubt about it. I'm not saying Iowa was like totally downtrodden like that when KF took over. But it wasn't like it was on auto pilot and all KF had to do was show up to get Iowa to the 3 strait top 10 finishes they had. Iowa still had the recruiting geographical disadvantages they've always had. It took till year 4 for that to get started. At the end of year 3 things ended on a high note and some were pretty fired up for what the next yr might have in store but even still nobody saw what ended up happening coming in 02 ahead of time..

 

[Unknownbadger]

From an admitted outsider, but one that follows and like Iowa football, how can KF be overrated? There's not a whole lot to draw a recruit to Cedar Rapids, and I like the city. There isn't a whole lot of P5 talent in the state although I think a lot of a number of HS programs. And even in the Fry era, it wasn't an "elite" program. He doesn't have any advantages but he does win. Does he deserve the money he's making? Could anybody else do a better job than he's done? Maybe, but would anybody bet on it? Not me, and I think most knowledgeable analysts would say the same. So is he worth it? How much is making thousands of fans fill the stadium every year worth?

 

[HawkGold]

Well if your going to compare the two situations each took over then absolutely your right. No debate there. But that's not what I was doing. I was just on it's face value saying Hayden left the cupboard pretty empty for the next couple yrs and it looked like that was how it was going to be ahead of time. Prior to KF coaching a game nobody had delusions of grandjur that he'd get Iowa to a bowl game right away. Scott Frost has way higher (how realistic those are remains to be seen)expectations then what KF had at the time.

Bob Stoops wasn't 'Big game' Bob Stoops at the time. I mean he was looked at as the 'next big thing' kinda like Frost is now. But as is the case with Frost there was no guarantee of his being able to set the world on fire like he kinda ended up doing down there. But heck he hadn't been a HC yet like Frost has for a couple years now. We may have looked at Stoops as a no doubt about it great hire (and he would have been) but the rest of college football probably wouldn't have till after the fact.

Counting Frys last yr Iowa went 3 yrs in a row not going to bowls counting KFs first two seasons and they weren't even close...

Was program better than it was when Fry took over? Oh hell yes no doubt about it. I'm not saying Iowa was like totally downtrodden like that when KF took over. But it wasn't like it was on auto pilot and all KF had to do was show up to get Iowa to the 3 strait top 10 finishes they had. Iowa still had the recruiting geographical disadvantages they've always had. It took till year 4 for that to get started. At the end of year 3 things ended on a high note and some were pretty fired up for what the next yr might have in store but even still nobody saw what ended up happening coming in 02 ahead of time..

At the same time the fact that he really didn't know what he was doing played into it. His Maine record wasn't very good at all. Regardless, we've had some really fun years.

 

[hawkdrummer1]

From an admitted outsider, but one that follows and like Iowa football, how can KF be overrated? There's not a whole lot to draw a recruit to Cedar Rapids, and I like the city. There isn't a whole lot of P5 talent in the state although I think a lot of a number of HS programs. And even in the Fry era, it wasn't an "elite" program. He doesn't have any advantages but he does win. Does he deserve the money he's making? Could anybody else do a better job than he's done? Maybe, but would anybody bet on it? Not me, and I think most knowledgeable analysts would say the same. So is he worth it? How much is making thousands of fans fill the stadium every year worth?

You don't draw a recruit to CR, you draw them to the college campus in Iowa City...big difference. (but I get what you mean). Winning at IOWA isn't easy. KFz has found a formula that works (with its flaws and all) and has been able to sustain it. What's interesting is, he and Hayden both did it...but with quite different styles.

 

[Unknownbadger]

You don't draw a recruit to CR, you draw them to the college campus in Iowa City...big difference. (but I get what you mean). Winning at IOWA isn't easy. KFz has found a formula that works (with its flaws and all) and has been able to sustain it. What's interesting is, he and Hayden both did it...but with quite different styles.

Yeah, I know that. I don't know why I posted CR. IC is a nice town but it would be difficult for it to hold a candle to Madison for anyone flying in. Madison with it's lakes and what they have to offer is a very pretty city. Wisconsin HS's don't stress athletics (that's a general statement) but there is raw talent in the state. That benefits developmental programs such as Wisconsin and Iowa. Multiple ex-WO's will get plenty of play in 2018. And new success with its publicity over time will bring others from outside the state. Wisconsin is starting to feel that, but fans know that it can be fleeting.

Iowa needs to take the next step but I'm not sure it has enough to take that step. Hope so, because I hate it when some are limited by the hand they're dealt.

 

[Xerxes]

You have a lot to chew on with your take here. I'll just start with your first one. Do you think Fry or any other coach could have done better than the 4 wins that KF had in his first 2 years? Young or not, devoid of talent or not, the program wasn't in a great spot and others knew it. Why do you think Iowa hired KF? Because your absolutely right about his resume prior to getting there. Nobody else was banging down KFs door to give him a high profile HC gig at that time. Stoops I can't remember how highly thought of he was at the time but he was certainly a more known commodity at the time as an up and coming assistant. But beyond him and KF I can't think of who else was on the short list but I don't think they were note worthy and that's because Iowa at the time wasn't in a great spot. At the time no football facility was on the radar, the upgrades to the stadium weren't going. It just wasn't even close to where he's gotten it to.
If KF retires today their would be agents floating the names of all sorts of coaches out there for it. That sure wasn't the case back then and that's due to what the state of the program was in. Here we are with KF at just about the same point of his tenure as Fry was then and yet the program is in a vastly different state it's not even close...

The short answer is no.

I love HF but IMO he did leave the program in bad shape. 1997 & 1998 were not good seasons. And KF's first 2 seasons were the worst in my lifetime. Those were not talented teams that underachieved. They were teams largely void of talent and took crazy beatings weekly.

One of the reason's the 2001 and 2002 OLs were so good is because they were all playing in 1999 and 2000 as undersized converted TEs who took such beatings they developed a mean streak to the likes we haven't seen since. They were also coached by Philbin who was one of the best assistants is the KF era. Point is, programs in good or even decent shape, don't start undersized converted TEs on the OL as FR & SOs.

 

[Northside Hawk]

I don't get the HF v KF mentality. We've had great times with both. I hated HF's Prevent Defense which prevented a few wins in my opinion. I personally thought Vlasic was the better QB (what a great situation to have that argument)

I was at one of Fry's last wins on the road. He came over and warmly and humbly thanked the crowd. It was late in a not so good year. He was emotional about it. That was great moment. It was cold and wet. Maybe my favorite moment as a Hawk fan among many.

Vlasic definitely had the better arm. But Long could throw those deep outs and sideline routes with Ken Stabler type presiscion.

 

[trj]

The short answer is no.

I love HF but IMO he did leave the program in bad shape. 1997 & 1998 were not good seasons. And KF's first 2 seasons were the worst in my lifetime. Those were not talented teams that underachieved. They were teams largely void of talent and took crazy beatings weekly.

One of the reason's the 2001 and 2002 OLs were so good is because they were all playing in 1999 and 2000 as undersized converted TEs who took such beatings they developed a mean streak to the likes we haven't seen since. They were also coached by Philbin who was one of the best assistants is the KF era. Point is, programs in good or even decent shape, don't start undersized converted TEs on the OL as FR & SOs.

Imo, it is much more difficult to change the culture than it is to replenish the cupboards. Hayden had to change the culture of the Iowa program. Yes, he didn't leave the program in great shape, but the foundation was there for KF to build upon. I will reiterate what Drummer stated in an earlier post, without Hayden there is no Kirk.

 

[Northside Hawk]

Imo, it is much more difficult to change the culture than it is to replenish the cupboards. Hayden had to change the culture of the Iowa program. Yes, he didn't leave the program in great shape, but the foundation was there for KF to build upon. I will reiterate what Drummer stated in an earlier post, without Hayden there is no Kirk.

Hayden did have to change the culture, the mentality, that's a definite. The players were used to losing and used to accepting it. But there was raw physical talent left over from the end of the Bob Commings era. And it came to fruition in 1981, especially on defense and the kicking game. The juniors and seniors on that team were all Commings recruits.

Kirk, on the other hand, not only was physically outmatched his first 1.5 years, he had to scramble just to find the proper positions for the players, like Xerxes said. Two things worked against recruiting at the end of the Fry era, especially at the skill positions. One was Hayden's impending retirement and the other was that recruits weren't going to sit for three years waiting for Tim Dwight, Tavian Banks, Sedrick Shaw, and Matt Sherman to clear the decks. It would have been easy for other team's in the conference to point out that Hayden was hanging it up soon and that Bowlsby wasn't going to promote an assistant from his staff. Ironically, the coach who got the gig was a former Fry assistant anyway.

The culture that Hayden created was still largely intact when Kirk came in but I would argue that Hayden inherited better raw talent than Kirk did.

 

[SmokeTownHawk]

The short answer is no.

I love HF but IMO he did leave the program in bad shape. 1997 & 1998 were not good seasons. And KF's first 2 seasons were the worst in my lifetime. Those were not talented teams that underachieved. They were teams largely void of talent and took crazy beatings weekly.

One of the reason's the 2001 and 2002 OLs were so good is because they were all playing in 1999 and 2000 as undersized converted TEs who took such beatings they developed a mean streak to the likes we haven't seen since. They were also coached by Philbin who was one of the best assistants is the KF era. Point is, programs in good or even decent shape, don't start undersized converted TEs on the OL as FR & SOs.

In his last few years I just remember hearing about how other teams were using Hayden's age against him during recruiting. And listening to one of his last games at Minny and how it appeared the players were just giving up. And unlike how certain schools have done it there was no clear successor among the assistant coaches to take over when he did hang it up for good.