Is Kirk over rated?

Like the Hawkeyes, Kirk is unranked. The only reason his name ever comes up is his being overpaid, his tenure or how he handles boozing arrests.
 
Probably been a dozen threads on this topic already, basically. He's a decent but not great coach. That seems to be the sweet spot when it comes to assessing Kirk.
 
1hawkeye1 said:
The whole "overated" thing is overated.
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On another list I saw where he was also listed as underrated by coaches. So it's all in the eye of the beholder. Who cares. I would suspect and I think one coach all but insinuated it that a lot of coaches are jealous of KFs situation. I mean here's a guy that took over a program that was in rough shape. In a methodical way got them rebuilt and within 5-6 yrs started having 10 win years and 3 top 10 finishes in a row. (with an undefeated year Which is what most coaches dream about being able to do right? Well it doesn't stop there. Due to that Iowa unlike most schools allowed that good will to allow him to not be on the hot seat through 6, 7, 8 win years after that and get paid like he has and have the job security that he has. It'd be human nature for coaches to feel that way about it on the outside looking in.

KF has exactly what pretty much every coach out there wants minus the Alabama level of winning every year. So the word overrated can easily be applied to him due to his results over an extended period of time. That said so can underrated if you look at the fact with recruiting classes often ranked in the 40s he's able to have seasons that often exceed expectations more often than not. So what truly is he when you try factoring in the whole picture? I'm not sure I can quantify that or come up with just the right singular word for it.
 
When you are the longest tenured coach in all of football, you are going to get people on the overrated side. It's just the way it is. I've come to my final decision, now in the wake of what has been going on with other teams, that he is not overrated. He's been good for Iowa and runs a pretty clean program.

Ask NFL execs if he's overrated. They love Iowa players. Iowa players come in technically sound and ready to play right away. I guess that may be the most impressive thing about Ferentz. It may be his ability to coach the players to be technically sound. May also play into his fault as a college coach as he many times has difficulty trusting his players or to let them play loose. But, he gets players to the NFL on par with the blue blood programs. Would we have liked more 11-1 or 10-2 seasons or contending for a championship, YES, but he's done a pretty solid job. Just look at systemic problems other schools have had, Ohio St, Maryland, Penn St. Ferentz typically does not have systemic problems like those situations. Teams know that Iowa is not an easy out when playing Iowa.

I'm proud to say that he represents my favorite team and university. Many other universities and fans would love to have him on their side. He does it the right way.
 
Hawkfnntn said:
On another list I saw where he was also listed as underrated by coaches. So it's all in the eye of the beholder. Who cares. I would suspect and I think one coach all but insinuated it that a lot of coaches are jealous of KFs situation. I mean here's a guy that took over a program that was in rough shape. In a methodical way got them rebuilt and within 5-6 yrs started having 10 win years and 3 top 10 finishes in a row. (with an undefeated year Which is what most coaches dream about being able to do right? Well it doesn't stop there. Due to that Iowa unlike most schools allowed that good will to allow him to not be on the hot seat through 6, 7, 8 win years after that and get paid like he has and have the job security that he has. It'd be human nature for coaches to feel that way about it on the outside looking in.

KF has exactly what pretty much every coach out there wants minus the Alabama level of winning every year. So the word overrated can easily be applied to him due to his results over an extended period of time. That said so can underrated if you look at the fact with recruiting classes often ranked in the 40s he's able to have seasons that often exceed expectations more often than not. So what truly is he when you try factoring in the whole picture? I'm not sure I can quantify that or come up with just the right singular word for it.
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I also thought envy when reading. Many coaches are envious about his situation and the support he gets.
 
MelroseHawkins said:
I also thought envy when reading. Many coaches are envious about his situation and the support he gets.
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There's no doubt about it. I bet there's less then 5 or 10 coaches tops that'd honestly say they'd not want to trade 'situations' with KF. There are a few getting paid more now and some are at higher profile jobs but for those that prioritize job security along with a pretty high salary (which I would think is most of them) along with everything else that goes with it I'm sure a lot of coaches would trade gigs with KF in a heart beat.
 
Hawkfnntn said:
There's no doubt about it. I bet there's less then 5 or 10 coaches tops that'd honestly say they'd not want to trade 'situations' with KF. There are a few getting paid more now and some are at higher profile jobs but for those that prioritize job security along with a pretty high salary (which I would think is most of them) along with everything else that goes with it I'm sure a lot of coaches would trade gigs with KF in a heart beat.
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Look at how many coaches Illinois has had over the years, Nebraska, and others. Iowa has had two since like 1979. That is UNHEARD of! I wish the BIG network or ESECPN would do a segment on that once. Two coaches in 39 years. UNREAL!
 
Hawkfnntn said:
On another list I saw where he was also listed as underrated by coaches. So it's all in the eye of the beholder. Who cares. I would suspect and I think one coach all but insinuated it that a lot of coaches are jealous of KFs situation. I mean here's a guy that took over a program that was in rough shape. In a methodical way got them rebuilt and within 5-6 yrs started having 10 win years and 3 top 10 finishes in a row. (with an undefeated year Which is what most coaches dream about being able to do right? Well it doesn't stop there. Due to that Iowa unlike most schools allowed that good will to allow him to not be on the hot seat through 6, 7, 8 win years after that and get paid like he has and have the job security that he has. It'd be human nature for coaches to feel that way about it on the outside looking in.

KF has exactly what pretty much every coach out there wants minus the Alabama level of winning every year. So the word overrated can easily be applied to him due to his results over an extended period of time. That said so can underrated if you look at the fact with recruiting classes often ranked in the 40s he's able to have seasons that often exceed expectations more often than not. So what truly is he when you try factoring in the whole picture? I'm not sure I can quantify that or come up with just the right singular word for it.
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We've been over this a number of times. He did not take over a program in rough shape. Fry ended his career with 2 outstanding recruiting classes. Were they young? Yes. KF also had K Hill with all that plus and minus.

Kirk was a mediocre coach with very little HC experience. None at D1. He had poor results at Maine and I think if remembering correctly, he did more poorly overall than his predecessor and his replacement. The guy was green. Green as hell. He had no OC or DC experience. He had 3 years. Correct me if I'm wrong but he won about 1/3 of his games at Maine in 3 years.

KF at times seems more preoccupied with his contract than performance, especially when he first came. It has oft been a distraction.

KF overall has done OK at Iowa with an impressive record of top ten finishes. It does get tarnished by some bad losses and bad years. He has oft failed to capitalize on success when it seemed to be there for the taking.

KF at times disses Iowa as a state.

KF stubbornness seems to get in his way sometimes.

KF recruiting policy seems to be a limiting factor by limiting offers. Some guys just don't work out.

I'm not aware of other coaches that are faced with as many years of lack of depth for a successful coach. This is particularly apparent on the O line.

KF policies seems to not get younger players much experience until thrust into real important game situations.
This is especially true at QB.

KF seems to have some constant controversy at playing the best players. This year and last year it may be punting.

KF has give we fans measures of success never experienced in a long long time if ever.

KF would never have been hired by many solid programs when he was hired.

KF has beaten teams he shouldn't have. KF has lost to good team he shouldn't have playing Ferentz ball.

At times, KF teams look better than any Iowa team I have ever seen. The next game, I'd rather have Bob C as coach again.

I think KF has quietly upgraded Iowa talent. This may be masked this year by inexperience. The speed on the line and edges (except receiver) on both sides of the ball has been pretty darned good.

KF may have Iowa positioned for their best football ever as soon as this year or at least soon. This year may also be a disaster.

KF has some of the best prepared teams ever and sometimes looks like they didn't give the opponent one thought.

How do you grade out such a coach.

My grade in description. A coach constantly on the verge of greatness but on the verge of outright incompetence.

Last year was typical. Back to Back OSU and Wisconsin. One of the best O displays ever. One of the worst ever. And frankly either results, even reversed, even both being the same wouldn't be a surprise.
 
MelroseHawkins said:
Look at how many coaches Illinois has had over the years, Nebraska, and others. Iowa has had two since like 1979. That is UNHEARD of! I wish the BIG network or ESECPN would do a segment on that once. Two coaches in 39 years. UNREAL!
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Had Ron Turner or Zook been able to stay the results would probably look a lot like Iowa. If Mac stayed at IL, he would probably be Hall of fame. The guy in the 80s wasn't afraid to cheat openly which is one thing Iowa hasn't had to deal with. Beckman would have killed any program and he did.

What happened to Turner and Zook is that assistants became hot commodities. KF being able to keep asst's has been helpful...I think.
 
MelroseHawkins said:
Did you know that Zook is with the Packers? I had no idea until I was watching the preseason game the other night.
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My kid is a Packers fan, so yes I did. He didn't start out well, but he seems solid. The dude likes to talk that's for sure. He's actually pretty approachable in person. My take is that he's a great HC as long as he has assistants that can keep order in dotting i's and crossing t's. My guess is he like's Iowa players.
 
HawkGold said:
We've been over this a number of times. He did not take over a program in rough shape. Fry ended his career with 2 outstanding recruiting classes. Were they young? Yes. KF also had K Hill with all that plus and minus.

Kirk was a mediocre coach with very little HC experience. None at D1. He had poor results at Maine and I think if remembering correctly, he did more poorly overall than his predecessor and his replacement. The guy was green. Green as hell. He had no OC or DC experience. He had 3 years. Correct me if I'm wrong but he won about 1/3 of his games at Maine in 3 years.

KF at times seems more preoccupied with his contract than performance, especially when he first came. It has oft been a distraction.

KF overall has done OK at Iowa with an impressive record of top ten finishes. It does get tarnished by some bad losses and bad years. He has oft failed to capitalize on success when it seemed to be there for the taking.

KF at times disses Iowa as a state.

KF stubbornness seems to get in his way sometimes.

KF recruiting policy seems to be a limiting factor by limiting offers. Some guys just don't work out.

I'm not aware of other coaches that are faced with as many years of lack of depth for a successful coach. This is particularly apparent on the O line.

KF policies seems to not get younger players much experience until thrust into real important game situations.
This is especially true at QB.

KF seems to have some constant controversy at playing the best players. This year and last year it may be punting.

KF has give we fans measures of success never experienced in a long long time if ever.

KF would never have been hired by many solid programs when he was hired.

KF has beaten teams he shouldn't have. KF has lost to good team he shouldn't have playing Ferentz ball.

At times, KF teams look better than any Iowa team I have ever seen. The next game, I'd rather have Bob C as coach again.

I think KF has quietly upgraded Iowa talent. This may be masked this year by inexperience. The speed on the line and edges (except receiver) on both sides of the ball has been pretty darned good.

KF may have Iowa positioned for their best football ever as soon as this year or at least soon. This year may also be a disaster.

KF has some of the best prepared teams ever and sometimes looks like they didn't give the opponent one thought.

How do you grade out such a coach.

My grade in description. A coach constantly on the verge of greatness but on the verge of outright incompetence.

Last year was typical. Back to Back OSU and Wisconsin. One of the best O displays ever. One of the worst ever. And frankly either results, even reversed, even both being the same wouldn't be a surprise.
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You have a lot to chew on with your take here. I'll just start with your first one. Do you think Fry or any other coach could have done better than the 4 wins that KF had in his first 2 years? Young or not, devoid of talent or not, the program wasn't in a great spot and others knew it. Why do you think Iowa hired KF? Because your absolutely right about his resume prior to getting there. Nobody else was banging down KFs door to give him a high profile HC gig at that time. Stoops I can't remember how highly thought of he was at the time but he was certainly a more known commodity at the time as an up and coming assistant. But beyond him and KF I can't think of who else was on the short list but I don't think they were note worthy and that's because Iowa at the time wasn't in a great spot. At the time no football facility was on the radar, the upgrades to the stadium weren't going. It just wasn't even close to where he's gotten it to.
If KF retires today their would be agents floating the names of all sorts of coaches out there for it. That sure wasn't the case back then and that's due to what the state of the program was in. Here we are with KF at just about the same point of his tenure as Fry was then and yet the program is in a vastly different state it's not even close...
 
I saw Mike Belotti talking about a coach and what keeps him at a particular school for a long time. One of the comments was that you have to beat your big rivals, especially in-state ones, more than they beat you. Well, I'd say Kirk is doing well recently. He's 6-0 in his last six games against Iowa State and Nebraska.

On a side note...the 2014 Iowa - Nebraska game was on BTN the other night. My god, I forgot we had 4 turnovers in the first half, two in the red zone by Rudock. That may be one of the worst losses in Iowa history...what a gift. I know it panned out in 2015 when CJ took over, but I would have pulled Rudock for Beathard in the first half. I know he improved his mechanics at Michigan his senior year...but the step and wind up on his throwing motion was slower than I remember. My god it took forever for the ball to get there...and he missed guys all over the place in that game.
 
I still want want 9-10 wns. But this surprised me.


The Ferentz led Hawkeyes have five AP top-10 finishes since 2000, which is more than Michigan, Nebraska, Tennessee, Florida State, Washington, Stanford, Notre Dame, Miami, Clemson, and W. Virginia. That's as many as Wisconsin and Penn State.
 
HawkGold said:
We've been over this a number of times. He did not take over a program in rough shape. Fry ended his career with 2 outstanding recruiting classes. Were they young? Yes. KF also had K Hill with all that plus and minus.
.
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Minimizing Hayden's accomplishments has become a hip thing to do, much like saying the Beatles were just a boy band. Without Hayden there would be no Kirk (at least not in his current form).

Both were great hires for IOWA. Hayden sagged a bit in the end do to age and cancer. (though 3 consecutive bowls prior to his last season in '98 isn't exactly "failing") Kirk has sagged at times due to his lack of imagination and stubbornness.

Each had advantages and disadvantages in their tenures.
 
Hawkfnntn said:
You have a lot to chew on with your take here. I'll just start with your first one. Do you think Fry or any other coach could have done better than the 4 wins that KF had in his first 2 years? Young or not, devoid of talent or not, the program wasn't in a great spot and others knew it. Why do you think Iowa hired KF? Because your absolutely right about his resume prior to getting there. Nobody else was banging down KFs door to give him a high profile HC gig at that time. Stoops I can't remember how highly thought of he was at the time but he was certainly a more known commodity at the time as an up and coming assistant. But beyond him and KF I can't think of who else was on the short list but I don't think they were note worthy and that's because Iowa at the time wasn't in a great spot. At the time no football facility was on the radar, the upgrades to the stadium weren't going. It just wasn't even close to where he's gotten it to.
If KF retires today their would be agents floating the names of all sorts of coaches out there for it. That sure wasn't the case back then and that's due to what the state of the program was in. Here we are with KF at just about the same point of his tenure as Fry was then and yet the program is in a vastly different state it's not even close...
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HF didn't have a chance to use that talent coming in. But he did set KF up nicely. I"m not anti KF, but I certainly don't know how to grade him out. Would he have won 4 or more? Who knows.I do think the 01 team was on the verge of playing on the national team, but that would have been with Banks as QB who wouldn't have been there w/o KF (who never did it again..go figure). The whole coaching world has changed since HF retired so it's hard to tell, but if my memory is correct, Iowa wanted an Iowa guy.

Who knows how Stoops would have been. I do think he would have been more of a gamer. Results? Who knows.
 
WinOneThisCentury said:
I saw Mike Belotti talking about a coach and what keeps him at a particular school for a long time. One of the comments was that you have to beat your big rivals, especially in-state ones, more than they beat you. Well, I'd say Kirk is doing well recently. He's 6-0 in his last six games against Iowa State and Nebraska.

On a side note...the 2014 Iowa - Nebraska game was on BTN the other night. My god, I forgot we had 4 turnovers in the first half, two in the red zone by Rudock. That may be one of the worst losses in Iowa history...what a gift. I know it panned out in 2015 when CJ took over, but I would have pulled Rudock for Beathard in the first half. I know he improved his mechanics at Michigan his senior year...but the step and wind up on his throwing motion was slower than I remember. My god it took forever for the ball to get there...and he missed guys all over the place in that game.
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I saw that on the other night too. That has to be right up there as a game that got away from us. Up 24-7 I think at one point and if it weren't for turnovers it shoulda been 30 or more to 7. It was just beyond sloppy. He missed on a wide open Powell on a deep ball where he'd have danced in the end zone. Such a frustrating game.
 
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