Iowa Program is bottoming out

[Hay Man]

They are all leaving- I'd count on it.... at least Dix, Harding and Freeman, regardless what happens at HC. If you think anyone wants to be a part of the miserable product that is Iowa basketball, it's fan support, it's NIL package and current state of affairs....we're all in for a rude awakening.

And you know what? Good. This needs to be blown up.

I couldn't agree more. It just seems inevitable that wholesale changes all around the program are going to happen after the season.

 

[NorthKCHawk]

Someone could run to a different message board and say they read on Hawkeye Nation that multiple men's BB players are transferring. Until I see something from someone in the know, I will take this for internet rumor and message board speculation. I would be pretty surprised if any of these guys would make such a decision in the middle of the season. And, until they see how the HC situation works out, and what sort of NIL money may be coming there way due to the Court decision and other factors, why would they decide to leave already? Makes no sense.

To be clear, I am sure many Iowa players will consider leaving and maybe some do. That statement is probably true of every program in the nation right now. No one is safe. To post that the decisions have been made at this time doesn't pass the smell test.

 

[STILLBUSTER]

Tom Davis isn't getting quite the respect he deserves on here. It's starting to piss me off a little. I think you can make an argument that both he and Fran have been very good coaches. Iowa has been lucky to have both of them.

Since not all of us remember Davis' career that well, let's recall he was a head coach at two other P5 schools (unlike Fran). Davis took Boston College to a Sweet 16 AND Elite 8. And that he was in the rough and tumble Big East. Big boy basketball. Then he flipped coasts and had Pac-10 Stanford at .500 for four years. Coaching Stanford basketball in the mid 80s might have been a tougher job than Northwestern football at the time. Going .500 was impressive enough to be picked for a pretty damn plum job in 1986 - the University of Iowa.

People tend to fixate on Davis inheriting amazing players. That's all true, but I don't think you can say he underachieved those first couple years. He got players to buy into a new system and believe in him and each other. Not easy. You think Roy Marble and Ed Horton were a piece of cake to coach?

People seem to point out that Fran found gems like Garza and Murray. True, but don't forget Davis had a great eye for talent and was a hell of a coach. Ryan Bowen was a 6'9" tennis player from Fort Madison who other Big Ten schools weren't interested in. Davis saw the quickness and drive and dude goes onto a long NBA career. Or seeing Kent McCauseland's potential and putting him in position to lead the country in 3 point %.

What about seeing something in intramural player Darryl Moore and turning him into a Big Ten starter as a 6'2" forward. Or changing the offense right before the season started (can't recall if someone was academically ineligible?) so that 6'5" James Winters could be an effective center.

Davis' teams often were better than the sum of their parts. Maybe no better example than the team that lost Kingsbury in the offseason and Settles in November. Davis built what was left around Woolridge and led them to their best Big Ten finish over the last 45 years (to a cheating Minnesota, who vacated the title) and put a scare in #1 seed and national champ Kentucky in the second round.

Yeah, Davis' recruiting was hit or miss at times.

But we are talking about a guy considered the father of the modern full court press. Other coaches consider him a pioneer and innovator. He NEVER lost a first round NCAA game - 11-0 all time. Overall, he was 18-11 in the NCAA tournament, with two Elite 8 trips, and three Sweet 16 trips.

That's a pretty damn good legacy.

MIKE ... DROP!
Anyone trying to offer a debate between Fran and TD was born after 1990.

 

[ajdwhs87]

If Fran had inherited a roster that included 7 guys that would get drafted in the first 3 rounds of NBA draft…he would probably have two Elite 8s. You know what Fran got instead? A complete dumpster fire.

TD’s second Elite 8 was basically on the fumes of Marble,Horton and Armstrong. Two NBA first rounders, and a bad ass known for kicking a wrestler’s ass at the Old Capital Mall. TD’s second sweet 16 was Bowlsby kicking him out the door and a 150 year old Jess Settles and everyone else rallying around it.

Tom Davis isn’t a better coach than Fran. Fran is the all-time winningest coach in Iowa history. And if I were to re-name the court, it would be after Lute or Caitlan.

Sticking around longer and also having BTT and 20 games season just adds up. Davis is just the better coach. Fran's teams up and down play, sub issues and lack of "D" and not going as far as you might think and losing to more teams than they should have. Fran is good and rated about right. Still just a bit behind Davis. Maybe a little better win%, going a bit deeper at times, and perhaps a few single digit loss seasons since the only one was Covid(that 9 would have turned to 10) I would give Fran the nod.

 

[Fryowa]

They are all leaving- I'd count on it.... at least Dix, Harding and Freeman, regardless what happens at HC. If you think anyone wants to be a part of the miserable product that is Iowa basketball, it's fan support, it's NIL package and current state of affairs....we're all in for a rude awakening.

And you know what? Good. This needs to be blown up.

Anyone here seen the movie, Necessary Roughness? I'm here for it.

 

[Hawkfnntn]

Tom Davis isn't getting quite the respect he deserves on here. It's starting to piss me off a little. I think you can make an argument that both he and Fran have been very good coaches. Iowa has been lucky to have both of them.

Since not all of us remember Davis' career that well, let's recall he was a head coach at two other P5 schools (unlike Fran). Davis took Boston College to a Sweet 16 AND Elite 8. And that he was in the rough and tumble Big East. Big boy basketball. Then he flipped coasts and had Pac-10 Stanford at .500 for four years. Coaching Stanford basketball in the mid 80s might have been a tougher job than Northwestern football at the time. Going .500 was impressive enough to be picked for a pretty damn plum job in 1986 - the University of Iowa.

People tend to fixate on Davis inheriting amazing players. That's all true, but I don't think you can say he underachieved those first couple years. He got players to buy into a new system and believe in him and each other. Not easy. You think Roy Marble and Ed Horton were a piece of cake to coach?

People seem to point out that Fran found gems like Garza and Murray. True, but don't forget Davis had a great eye for talent and was a hell of a coach. Ryan Bowen was a 6'9" tennis player from Fort Madison who other Big Ten schools weren't interested in. Davis saw the quickness and drive and dude goes onto a long NBA career. Or seeing Kent McCauseland's potential and putting him in position to lead the country in 3 point %.

What about seeing something in intramural player Darryl Moore and turning him into a Big Ten starter as a 6'2" forward. Or changing the offense right before the season started (can't recall if someone was academically ineligible?) so that 6'5" James Winters could be an effective center.

Davis' teams often were better than the sum of their parts. Maybe no better example than the team that lost Kingsbury in the offseason and Settles in November. Davis built what was left around Woolridge and led them to their best Big Ten finish over the last 45 years (to a cheating Minnesota, who vacated the title) and put a scare in #1 seed and national champ Kentucky in the second round.

Yeah, Davis' recruiting was hit or miss at times.

But we are talking about a guy considered the father of the modern full court press. Other coaches consider him a pioneer and innovator. He NEVER lost a first round NCAA game - 11-0 all time. Overall, he was 18-11 in the NCAA tournament, with two Elite 8 trips, and three Sweet 16 trips.

That's a pretty damn good legacy.

And the guy never left town... He wasn't from Iowa. Yet after Iowa (Bowlsby) ever so unceremoniously told him he was done coaching. He decided to stay and retire in Iowa City pretty much. That says so much about the guy to me and how he loved the people here. I thought it was awesome that he went to Drake and how all that played out for Keno to do what he did. (too bad he couldn't parlay that into a better career he probably shouldn't have left Drake that fast)

For a guy that likes to golf he coulda went about anywhere south so he coulda done even more of that. He's gotta be north of 85 now I would bet so he probably isn't doing as much of it now but for yrs I know he had been. The guy just endeared himself to Iowa. The exact opposite of what Fran has done. Not that he's expected to do what Davis did but they are so different on those levels.

I'd say there's a zero percent chance the McCafferys stay in Iowa. Hell I wouldn't be surprised if they have their house for sale now. Only thing tying them to Iowa will be Caitlin and her family who I think still live in WDM. Depending on how her and Conners relationship continues.

I could possibly be wrong about the Clarks for all I know they may have relocated to Indy too. I just hadn't heard any such thing.

 

[Zstatman]

They are all leaving- I'd count on it.... at least Dix, Harding and Freeman, regardless what happens at HC. If you think anyone wants to be a part of the miserable product that is Iowa basketball, it's fan support, it's NIL package and current state of affairs....we're all in for a rude awakening.

And you know what? Good. This needs to be blown up.

Does Beth need to go as well?

I keep thinking of the Miami coach when he announced he was leaving immediately right there during the season. He said two years earlier they had gone to the Final Four and after that 8 of his players entered the portal, it took something out of him. We got a recruit out of him quitting.

I guess we shouldn't be surprised by anything that happens.

 

[trj]

Sticking around longer and also having BTT and 20 games season just adds up. Davis is just the better coach. Fran's teams up and down play, sub issues and lack of "D" and not going as far as you might think and losing to more teams than they should have. Fran is good and rated about right. Still just a bit behind Davis. Maybe a little better win%, going a bit deeper at times, and perhaps a few single digit loss seasons since the only one was Covid(that 9 would have turned to 10) I would give Fran the nod.

Tom Davis was here 13 years and Fran has been here 15 years so it looks pretty equivalent to me. With the exception of one year, it is not like Fran has been crushing in the the BTT.

 

[Hawkfnntn]

They are all leaving- I'd count on it.... at least Dix, Harding and Freeman, regardless what happens at HC. If you think anyone wants to be a part of the miserable product that is Iowa basketball, it's fan support, it's NIL package and current state of affairs....we're all in for a rude awakening.

And you know what? Good. This needs to be blown up.

Yup it just seems so obvious that anyone that's surprised by it when it happens should turn in their fan card.

Freeman needs to see what he's worth on the open market and go cash the biggest check he can. Cause here's another rude awakening for him. He's not an NBA player. I don't see that in his future his game is too limited. I kinda think we've seen his ceiling. He's a solid college player and he's gonna have value NIL wise to many programs. But it'll surprise me if he's ever on an NBA floor. So he needs to be making money now.

 

[trj]

Its not nostalgia, its facts. I agree with a lot of what you say about Fran's skills and abilities as a coach. I think he is a great coach. But, this is a results oriented business and the results clearly show that Davis was a more successful coach. Objectively.

Look, there are many ways you can define the success of a coach. Overall record is important (BTW, Fran has two more years at Iowa, so not too shocking he has the all time win total), conference finishes, etc. But, I think most of the sports world ultimately judges a MBB coach by his NCAA tournament record. You cannot put these two coaches side by side on their tourney resume and conclude anything other than Davis was a more successful coach. Focusing solely on one season where Davis inherited a great team is just a way to distract from the total resume. What did Davis do that discounts him getting credit when he made it to the other Elite 8, or the three Sweet 16s, or the 7 first round wins? On the flipside, I guess Fran the Amazing is just the unluckiest tourney coach ever? Come on. These gents both had long careers and their tournament resumes speak for themselves. Gloss over the facts to make your point if you must, but the facts are what they are.

If you want to make the argument that Fran and Tom Davis are on the same level and this is just Iowa basketball the last 40+ years, then you will not get any push back from me. When people try and say one is vastly superior than the other, you lose me.

Tom Davis won 6 of his opening round tournament games as the Iowa coach, and Fran has won 4. I guess with that logic, being an 8 seed getting trucked by Duke or Kentucky is better than Fran being an 8 seed being smashed by Villanova.

 

[SwirlinLingerie]

If you want to make the argument that Fran and Tom Davis are on the same level and this is just Iowa basketball the last 40+ years, then you will not get any push back from me. When people try and say one is vastly superior than the other, you lose me.

Tom Davis won 6 of his opening round tournament games as the Iowa coach, and Fran has won 4. I guess with that logic, being an 8 seed getting trucked by Duke or Kentucky is better than Fran being an 8 seed being smashed by Villanova.

Fran is 4-3 in the opening round of NCAA tournament games at Iowa. Davis was 9-0 in the first round at Iowa.

 

[thedukeofearl]

I don't think Chris Street's memory would be tarnished at all by naming the floor "Clark/Street Court."
Or flip the order, but both are very deserving.

My guess, is being the strong Christian and kind-hearted person he was, Chris and his family might even prefer that both of them be honored. (& yes, Yes, YES, let's do it while the Streets are still with us!)

Since both the men's and women's team will continue to play on the same court, it seems fitting to have both the most memorable male and most talented female hoopster honored.

Many, if not most, of the all conference awards are named for multiple athletes. For example, the Big Ten's Rodgers-Dwight Return Specialist of the Year award honors Iowa's Tim Dwight and Nebraska's Johnny Rodgers.

And last, and most certainly least of the reasons why to honor both, (with a wide smile on my face):
Is Miller less filling, or does it taste great? The ad now goes "It's both!"

Clark Street Arena would be quite nice

 

[thedukeofearl]

If you want to make the argument that Fran and Tom Davis are on the same level and this is just Iowa basketball the last 40+ years, then you will not get any push back from me. When people try and say one is vastly superior than the other, you lose me.

Tom Davis won 6 of his opening round tournament games as the Iowa coach, and Fran has won 4. I guess with that logic, being an 8 seed getting trucked by Duke or Kentucky is better than Fran being an 8 seed being smashed by Villanova.

 

[NorthKCHawk]

Fran is 4-3 in the opening round of NCAA tournament games at Iowa. Davis was 9-0 in the first round at Iowa.

More facts and logic that clearly make the point? One guy has been at Iowa two years more and has a demonstrably lesser appearance and percentage tournament first round record, and that is setting aside two Sweet 16s and an Elite 8 on top of that, but I guess sometimes facts don't tell the whole story. Oh wait, they kinda do.

 

[NorthKCHawk]

Does Beth need to go as well?

Um, come on Z. That is not a serious question to pose right now. She has had the permanent gig for less than a year and played no role in causing any issues with MBB. She inherited a program stuck in a rut and she is making efforts to fix it. She deserves a chance to do her job longer than a few months and by all accounts she has been doing very well so far. If in a couple years things aren't any better we can start to look at leadership, but for now, she deserves a fair runway.

 

[InGoodCo]

Does Beth need to go as well?

I keep thinking of the Miami coach when he announced he was leaving immediately right there during the season. He said two years earlier they had gone to the Final Four and after that 8 of his players entered the portal, it took something out of him. We got a recruit out of him quitting.

I guess we shouldn't be surprised by anything that happens.

Nah, she's letting it play out and I think she's more than up to make that move. She fired Kirk Farentz kid, Fran should be easy comparatively and will likely be as widely approved as the BF move.

 

[Hay Man]

What is the most important thing that would help the program?

1. More NIL
2. New arena
3. Renovated Carver
4. New head coach

 

[trj]

MIKE ... DROP!
Anyone trying to offer a debate between Fran and TD was born after 1990.

It is not a mic drop and it is not even close.

And as much as I would love to be born after 1990, I was born waaay before it.

Darryl Moore

Fran would have been crucified for bringing on a 6’2 guy, slaying it in intramurals, to be a power forward. This year is a perfect example. Moore would be the best rebounder/defender on this year’s team and people still would shit on Fran for having him on the roster.

Jbo=McCauasland
Aaron White = Ryen Bowen

If you want to nitpick and pick out the subtle difference, then go for it. IMO, those 4 guys have a similar stories.

The Press

Yes, Gary Williams used that press to win a national title in 2002 at Maryland. All-time favorite memory was the 30 point comeback at Kansas in ‘96 and the press played a big part in that. What gets lost in these debates is that the Tom Davis press was just as frustrating to watch as a Fran team playing perimeter defense.

The same universal question always popped up with both guys: “Why are you doing this when you don’t have the guys to do it?”

For everytime Acie Earl blocked a shot at the back end of that press, there were 10 times where he got posterized and dunked on. If I wanted to be an asshole I would just post the Sports Illustrated pic of Troy Skinner trying to lay out for a charge call, and Rumeal Robinson just jumping over him with his nuts in his face. That was 89-90, and we(some Iowa fans) were looking at each other wondering if this magical press was going to continue to work.

 

[Hawkfnntn]

Nah, she's letting it play out and I think she's more than up to make that move. She fired Kirk Farentz kid, Fran should be easy comparatively and will likely be as widely approved as the BF move.

If for some reason Fran is still coaching this team next yr then I'll revisit this. But if she makes sure one way or the other that Fran is gone then yeah I'm all in with her still. She has to be hiring a new HC for next yr and then the judgments can begin from there. But as of now no she's done a fantastic job across the board that is Iowa sports.

How fair would it be to hold her accountable for the Iowa mens program situation and then not give her credit for the womens? For as long as she's been AD there's not been a seat not sold at the womens games. I don't think people realize just how nuts that is nation wide.

Does she get all the credit for that? Obviously not. Hardly any frankly but she hasn't messed it up either. Something I'm not so sure any of us woulda put past Barta in doing.

So I'm team Beth for now but she's got work to do. These next couple yrs will be her legacy cause she's gonna have to replace Fran and KF and if say one of those hires bomb let alone both... Then her seat will begin to get warmer. But not till then

 

[trj]

Fran is 4-3 in the opening round of NCAA tournament games at Iowa. Davis was 9-0 in the first round at Iowa.

6 of TD’s 13 years he was bounced after the round of 32. Better than Fran? Yes. But how much better has it been in the last 40+ years?