Iowa Program is bottoming out

[InGoodCo]

IMO, the environment that Fran is trying to succeed at Iowa is leaps and bounds more difficult than what Davis did and it's like, not even close. I also think Fran is 5x the recruiter and developer. Let's face it, Tom didn't lose his best players to a bag of money every season or players that have no business entering the draft and wouldn't have even considered doing such a thing in the 80's and 90's. I mean, could you imagine how bad Tom would have been without guys who are the equivalent of a Tyler Cook or Joe Wieskamp with eligibility left leaving his program? Now, take those 2 guys and replace them with Keegan and Kris Murray? Tom had to rely on getting guys into their 3rd or 4th season before we got any sort of pay off.

Davis is half the coach Fran is imo...but he was more likeable, came to Iowa at a time when the program was adored and in amazing shape. Fran came to Iowa as dumpster fire, turned it around and people still don't care. That's a hard cold fact that's stairing the next guy in the face.

 

[trj]

Well, I don't live in a hypothetical world. What I do know is that Fran has had some good teams and never gotten past the second game of the NCAA tourney. Maybe Fran would have taken the 87 team to a Nattie, maybe some kid hits a 30-footer from the corner and he drops out in the first round. No one knows what happens in Made Up Land.

What I do know is that not only did Dr. T have one Elite 8 appearance with Iowa, he had another one with BC, and a total of 3 Sweet 16s, one of which he pulled off as a lame duck coach before being fired. Comparing Davis' record in the real world with Fran's record in the real world and there is no comparison who has had a better career, at least as measured by Tourney success. Not even a close call.

And the floor will be named after CC some day. 70% of the fanbase was not alive when Lute was here.

My bad, man. Fran is Iowa’s all-time winningest coach and yet I am suppose to believe TD is light years ahead of Fran as a coach ? Nope. I don’t live in nostalgia and I have context. You are thinking the 11 of the 13 years of TD were better than what they were …and they weren’t.

 

[Hawkfnntn]

In Fran’s defense(no pun intended) the lack of fan engagement started before Fran even got here. Dochterman in one of the pods @Hawkfnntn listened to he talked about the steady decline of ticket revenue. It was at 4 million in 2005 and it is a little over 2 million now.

There are a generation of fans that are just gone from men’s basketball and are not coming back. Yes, Fran could have did more, but how much more I am really not sure.

I don't disagree. Alford left a mess in his wake when he got out ahead of the posse. Fran steadied the ship as well as it's been since. Yet Frans lack of endearing himself to the fans of the state is a real knock on him that he didn't try to change. Not once in 15 yrs.

I think hearing criticism towards his boys probably irked him like no other. And that woulda started back when they were in HS with Connor. So he just wasn't going to put himself out there anymore then he had to.

Some of the things he coulda done wouldn't have even really involved him. Make the players more accessible. Do another Prime Time league type of thing during the summer. Fran didn't have to be around for it infact I don't think he could. Do a Senior tour kinda thing like Mr. Davis did with BJ, Roy and Ed back when they went around the state doing a charity game against local fire departments or whatever. It's probably a tougher thing to do now with NIL and all that but 10 yrs ago it wouldn't have been.

You're right there's a generation of Iowans that grew up with a huge lack of give a shit about Iowa Hoops. Had I not been born when I was and was born in the late 90s-00s tough to say where my allegiances woulda landed. But it wouldn't have been as easy as it was.

 

[Fryowa]

If Fran had inherited a roster that included 7 guys that would get drafted in the first 3 rounds of NBA draft…he would probably have two Elite 8s. You know what Fran got instead? A complete dumpster fire.

TD’s second Elite 8 was basically on the fumes of Marble,Horton and Armstrong. Two NBA first rounders, and a bad ass known for kicking a wrestler’s ass at the Old Capital Mall. TD’s second sweet 16 was Bowlsby kicking him out the door and a 150 year old Jess Settles and everyone else rallying around it.

Tom Davis isn’t a better coach than Fran. Fran is the all-time winningest coach in Iowa history. And if I were to re-name the court, it would be after Lute or Caitlan.

Any Iowa basketball court that gets named after someone should say Chris Street Court on it. No one else should even be considered including Clark.

 

[PCHawk]

Saying you can't rate a coaches resume by excluding their first year doesn't make a lot of sense. You could make a serious argument that Davis underachieved in the tourney his first couple years. The most talented team in Iowa history needed a Gamble 3 to not get knocked out even earlier.

 

[Northside Hawk]

Saying you can't rate a coaches resume by excluding their first year doesn't make a lot of sense. You could make a serious argument that Davis underachieved in the tourney his first couple years. The most talented team in Iowa history needed a Gamble 3 to not get knocked out even earlier.

Heck, UTEP had Iowa on the ropes in the second round. They were down seven with five minutes to go before that famous depth finally wore UTEP down. That game wasn't in the bank until Sir Jamalot sealed it with one of his famous dunks.

 

[STILLBUSTER]

He did take Siena to the Sweet 16, they year before he came to Iowa, I think.

Lick did the same at Butler.
Either that's a poor evaluator or it's just an Iowa thing.

 

[thedukeofearl]

This is Fry performing mischief! He has programed the system to change Mr. Davis (if you write it the normal way) to Mr. Davis. He is a clever one that Fry.

Fry is a Clever Guy

 

[Gander Hawk]

Damn, won't let me call him Mr. Davis, replaces it with Mr. Davis

Doctor should be reserved for people who can write prescriptions IMHO

 

[Hawkfnntn]

Any Iowa basketball court that gets named after someone should say Chris Street Court on it. No one else should even be considered including Clark.

I wouldn't argue against Chris Streets name being put on it. In fact I'd say if they are going to do that hurry the hell up and do it while his parents are still with us and attending games like they do. Don't wait till they are gone.

Yet as time goes on and Clark just keeps doing what all she ends up doing down the road I wouldn't argue against her name being put on it either. I'm glad it's not a decision I'd have to make cause it's either or for me. Name the arena after one of em and the floor after the other. Or the locker rooms. I'm just spit balling but the only thing they can do wrong is let too much time go by and do nothing.

 

[oroko]

What I think people always miss in arguments about now and whatever nostalgia coach gets brought up is that interest is essentially gone compared to prior eras.

 

[NorthKCHawk]

Any Iowa basketball court that gets named after someone should say Chris Street Court on it. No one else should even be considered including Clark.

Why? Not Why Chris Street. Why should the greatest women's basketball player in the history of college basketball at least get 5 minutes of consideration for the naming of the court? I would love for Street to be honored, but I think what CC did for Iowa Women's Basketball and women's sports in general is absolutely immessurable.

 

[NorthKCHawk]

My bad, man. Fran is Iowa’s all-time winningest coach and yet I am suppose to believe TD is light years ahead of Fran as a coach ? Nope. I don’t live in nostalgia and I have context. You are thinking the 11 of the 13 years of TD were better than what they were …and they weren’t.

Its not nostalgia, its facts. I agree with a lot of what you say about Fran's skills and abilities as a coach. I think he is a great coach. But, this is a results oriented business and the results clearly show that Davis was a more successful coach. Objectively.

Look, there are many ways you can define the success of a coach. Overall record is important (BTW, Fran has two more years at Iowa, so not too shocking he has the all time win total), conference finishes, etc. But, I think most of the sports world ultimately judges a MBB coach by his NCAA tournament record. You cannot put these two coaches side by side on their tourney resume and conclude anything other than Davis was a more successful coach. Focusing solely on one season where Davis inherited a great team is just a way to distract from the total resume. What did Davis do that discounts him getting credit when he made it to the other Elite 8, or the three Sweet 16s, or the 7 first round wins? On the flipside, I guess Fran the Amazing is just the unluckiest tourney coach ever? Come on. These gents both had long careers and their tournament resumes speak for themselves. Gloss over the facts to make your point if you must, but the facts are what they are.

 

[Fryowa]

Why? Not Why Chris Street. Why should the greatest women's basketball player in the history of college basketball at least get 5 minutes of consideration for the naming of the court? I would love for Street to be honored, but I think what CC did for Iowa Women's Basketball and women's sports in general is absolutely immessurable.

Because in my opinion Chris Street should be the only name considered. Which by default means no one else should. No one else includes Clark.

It's my opinion. Not trying to change anyone's mind.

 

[wwhawk]

I don't think Chris Street's memory would be tarnished at all by naming the floor "Clark/Street Court."
Or flip the order, but both are very deserving.

My guess, is being the strong Christian and kind-hearted person he was, Chris and his family might even prefer that both of them be honored. (& yes, Yes, YES, let's do it while the Streets are still with us!)

Since both the men's and women's team will continue to play on the same court, it seems fitting to have both the most memorable male and most talented female hoopster honored.

Many, if not most, of the all conference awards are named for multiple athletes. For example, the Big Ten's Rodgers-Dwight Return Specialist of the Year award honors Iowa's Tim Dwight and Nebraska's Johnny Rodgers.

And last, and most certainly least of the reasons why to honor both, (with a wide smile on my face):
Is Miller less filling, or does it taste great? The ad now goes "It's both!"

 

[SwirlinLingerie]

Tom Davis isn't getting quite the respect he deserves on here. It's starting to piss me off a little. I think you can make an argument that both he and Fran have been very good coaches. Iowa has been lucky to have both of them.

Since not all of us remember Davis' career that well, let's recall he was a head coach at two other P5 schools (unlike Fran). Davis took Boston College to a Sweet 16 AND Elite 8. And that he was in the rough and tumble Big East. Big boy basketball. Then he flipped coasts and had Pac-10 Stanford at .500 for four years. Coaching Stanford basketball in the mid 80s might have been a tougher job than Northwestern football at the time. Going .500 was impressive enough to be picked for a pretty damn plum job in 1986 - the University of Iowa.

People tend to fixate on Davis inheriting amazing players. That's all true, but I don't think you can say he underachieved those first couple years. He got players to buy into a new system and believe in him and each other. Not easy. You think Roy Marble and Ed Horton were a piece of cake to coach?

People seem to point out that Fran found gems like Garza and Murray. True, but don't forget Davis had a great eye for talent and was a hell of a coach. Ryan Bowen was a 6'9" tennis player from Fort Madison who other Big Ten schools weren't interested in. Davis saw the quickness and drive and dude goes onto a long NBA career. Or seeing Kent McCauseland's potential and putting him in position to lead the country in 3 point %.

What about seeing something in intramural player Darryl Moore and turning him into a Big Ten starter as a 6'2" forward. Or changing the offense right before the season started (can't recall if someone was academically ineligible?) so that 6'5" James Winters could be an effective center.

Davis' teams often were better than the sum of their parts. Maybe no better example than the team that lost Kingsbury in the offseason and Settles in November. Davis built what was left around Woolridge and led them to their best Big Ten finish over the last 45 years (to a cheating Minnesota, who vacated the title) and put a scare in #1 seed and national champ Kentucky in the second round.

Yeah, Davis' recruiting was hit or miss at times.

But we are talking about a guy considered the father of the modern full court press. Other coaches consider him a pioneer and innovator. He NEVER lost a first round NCAA game - 11-0 all time. Overall, he was 18-11 in the NCAA tournament, with two Elite 8 trips, and three Sweet 16 trips.

That's a pretty damn good legacy.

 

[NorthKCHawk]

Tom Davis isn't getting quite the respect he deserves on here. It's starting to piss me off a little. I think you can make an argument that both he and Fran have been very good coaches. Iowa has been lucky to have both of them.

Since not all of us remember Davis' career that well, let's recall he was a head coach at two other P5 schools (unlike Fran). Davis took Boston College to a Sweet 16 AND Elite 8. And that he was in the rough and tumble Big East. Big boy basketball. Then he flipped coasts and had Pac-10 Stanford at .500 for four years. Coaching Stanford basketball in the mid 80s might have been a tougher job than Northwestern football at the time. Going .500 was impressive enough to be picked for a pretty damn plum job in 1985 - the University of Iowa.

People tend to fixate on Davis inheriting amazing players. That's all true, but I don't think you can say he underachieved those first couple years. He got players to buy into a new system and believe in him and each other. Not easy. You think Roy Marble and Ed Horton were a piece of cake to coach?

People seem to point out that Fran found gems like Garza and Murray. True, but don't forget Davis had a great eye for talent and was a hell of a coach. Ryan Bowen was a 6'9" tennis player from Fort Madison who other Big Ten schools weren't interested in. Davis saw the quickness and drive and dude goes onto a long NBA career. Or seeing Kent McCauseland's potential and putting him in position to lead the country in 3 point %.

What about seeing something in intramural player Darryl Moore and turning him into a Big Ten starter as a 6'2" forward. Or changing the offense right before the season started (can't recall if someone was academically ineligible?) so that 6'5" James Winters could be an effective center.

Davis' teams often were better than the sum of their parts. Maybe no better example than the team that lost Kingsbury in the offseason and Settles in November. Davis built what was left around Woolridge and led them to their best Big Ten finish over the last 45 years (to a cheating Minnesota, who vacated the title) and put a scare in #1 seed and national champ Kentucky in the second round.

Yeah, Davis' recruiting was hit or miss at times.

But we are talking about a guy considered the father of the modern full court press. Other coaches consider him a pioneer and innovator. He NEVER lost a first round NCAA game - 11-0 all time. Overall, he was 18-11 in the NCAA tournament, with two Elite 8 trips, and three Sweet 16 trips.

That's a pretty damn good legacy.

Stop making so much sense with all of these factual citations. Some feel Davis is overrated and Fran is better and no amount of truth and logic will dissuade them. Personally, I agree with you that Iowa has been lucky to have them both.

 

[Hay Man]

I really enjoyed the way Davis coached and it was a really entertaining product on the court.

Fran's teams are a bit harder to watch play even though they usually score a lot.

Davis's teams had more successes in the Big Dance.

Fran is better at developing players and spotting the hidden gems.

Davis was given a lot better team when he got here compared to Fran.

I personally like Davis better, but by no means do I think one guy is a better coach than the other.

All we can hope for is something similar or better whenever Beth has to hire another coach... we don't need another Alford or Lickliter