intentional/flagrant foul revisited

DuffMan said:
The body that governs the NCAA and oversees it's officials has directed it's officials to use video replay in the event of suspected elbow contact, suspected punches, to determine if a shot left the shooters hand prior to the clock hitting zero, and to determin 2 or 3 point goals. They realize that asking officials to judge intent with a high degree of accuracy solely from watching it live as it happens would likely result in incorrect calls being made. As such they direct them to use replay to increase thier chances of getting it right. Asking why the officials used the replay in that situation is akin to asking football officials why they review a play when a coach throws a challenge flag on the field. The answer in both case is "Because that's the rule".

The NCAA wanted to put a halt to players with the ball using thier elbows to create space. They implimented the graduated rule (intentional/flagarant) specifically so they could penalize a player who hits someone with his elbow with intent differently from one who does so without intent. The rule now both penalizes offensive players who strike a defending players head with swinging elbows while allowing for different punishments based on intent.

Cole did gain an unfair advantage because he used his elbows to creat space to make that shot. The defender's head has every right to occupy that space. The burden is on the offensive player to be able to make his move to the basket without dislodging the defense, something Cole did not do.

"I didn't mean to" has never been a valid excuse for commiting a foul or a violation, why would it be in this case?
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**** and I thought I was a "rule follower".
WOW. Do you actually believe the Refs are on the floor enforcing the rules in such a way as you describe?
 
DuffMan said:
Cole did gain an unfair advantage because he used his elbows to creat space to make that shot. The defender's head has every right to occupy that space. The burden is on the offensive player to be able to make his move to the basket without dislodging the defense, something Cole did not do.
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Duff please explain to me the disparity between this application of the rule, and that of a typical charging vs blocking foul. The way things are called these days, as long as the defensive player has not been stationary in the path of an offensive player driving the ball, the offensive player can initiate any type of contact imaginable (except of course contact to the head with an elbow), and the foul will always be called a block on the defender. Why doesn't the defenders body have the same right to occupy that space as the defenders head does?
 
As long as we are needlessly discussing irrelevant parts of blow out games, there was a call in the Royals-Mariners game on July 7, 2010 that I haven't gotten over. There was a bad called third strike against Scott Podsednik in the top of the 8th inning. I mean, the Royals won 7-3, but I still can't get over on what a lousy call that was.
 
BALDIES7980 said:
**** and I thought I was a "rule follower".
WOW. Do you actually believe the Refs are on the floor enforcing the rules in such a way as you describe?
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Yes. Officials have little choice but to enforce the rules as they have been written. When they don't you end up with things like Eric Greg and "my strike zone".
 
sioux34 said:
Duff please explain to me the disparity between this application of the rule, and that of a typical charging vs blocking foul. The way things are called these days, as long as the defensive player has not been stationary in the path of an offensive player driving the ball, the offensive player can initiate any type of contact imaginable (except of course contact to the head with an elbow), and the foul will always be called a block on the defender. Why doesn't the defenders body have the same right to occupy that space as the defenders head does?
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The short answer is it does. The block/charge call is easily one of the most difficult call in basketball. A defender is allowed to maintain a legal guarding position, and may move, backward, laterally, or obliquely provided that movement does not initiate contact that interrupts/disturbs the speed or rhythm of the offensive player.

Practically officials generally watch for a few things. On a non shooter we look at the head and shoulders of the ball handler. If the ball handler lowers his shoulder into the defender or uses a forearm or open hand the call is likely to go against the offensive player. If on the other hand the offensive players head and shoulders are ahead of the defensive players midline (belly button) in relation to the area of the court in which he is dribbling the foul is typically called a block. There are some grey areas here, as officials we generally ask ourselves “who initiated the contact†and call it accordingly.

One of the biggest problems in the above area is related to the “speed and rhythm of the dribbler†portion. Sometimes rather than blow a quick whistle an official will allow a play to develop to better determine what the impact the contact has on the ball handler. This “failure to get the first foul†frequently leads to a situation where the offensive player using his hand or arm to push off and create space. Now the official is in a situation where he has to decide do I call the offensive player for retaliating or do I call the foul I just let go on the defensive player.

On shots or drives to the basket the player can also be moving provided he’s in a legal guarding position. One of the more popular myths is a defenders feet have to be set in order to take a charge, that’s not the case. Some of the things we look for here are if the offensive players head and shoulders get around the defender than that will almost always result in a block (some exceptions occur when a player tries to split a double team or drive the ball somewhere there isn’t room). If the contact occurs in the chest or torso of the defender we simply ask ourselves was the defender in his area and in a legal guarding position prior to the beginning of the act of the shot (which actually occurs when the player picks up his dribble not when he leaves the floor). If the answer is yes it should be an offensive foul, provided the defensive player is displaced or otherwise placed at a disadvantage by the contact. Again we attempt to determine who initiated the contact.
 
DuffMan said:
Yes. Officials have little choice but to enforce the rules as they have been written. When they don't you end up with things like Eric Greg and "my strike zone".
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OK then ,I'm sorry to have bothered you, I'll let you play in your own little world cuz' there is no fixing what you've got. But thanks for making me feel better about how I view things.
 
duff, despite the tome you posted on the subject, you and I both know that is not how charging/blocking gets called. In most cases, if the defender is not set in stone, it will be a block. The only exception we generally see is if the ball handler uses an arm to push off and make space.
 
Another exception Sioux is if the ref just made a "bad" charging/blocking call on the other end of the floor.;)
 
DuffMan said:
The body that governs the NCAA and oversees it's officials has directed it's officials to use video replay in the event of suspected elbow contact, suspected punches, to determine if a shot left the shooters hand prior to the clock hitting zero, and to determin 2 or 3 point goals. They realize that asking officials to judge intent with a high degree of accuracy solely from watching it live as it happens would likely result in incorrect calls being made. As such they direct them to use replay to increase thier chances of getting it right. Asking why the officials used the replay in that situation is akin to asking football officials why they review a play when a coach throws a challenge flag on the field. The answer in both case is "Because that's the rule".

The NCAA wanted to put a halt to players with the ball using thier elbows to create space. They implimented the graduated rule (intentional/flagarant) specifically so they could penalize a player who hits someone with his elbow with intent differently from one who does so without intent. The rule now both penalizes offensive players who strike a defending players head with swinging elbows while allowing for different punishments based on intent.

Cole did gain an unfair advantage because he used his elbows to creat space to make that shot. The defender's head has every right to occupy that space. The burden is on the offensive player to be able to make his move to the basket without dislodging the defense, something Cole did not do.

"I didn't mean to" has never been a valid excuse for commiting a foul or a violation, why would it be in this case?
Click to expand...

There is also a rule saying that the offensive player has the right to vertical space, so when Cole was stepping through and had position established with his feet and stood upright with the ball up at his head he was in a space that was rightfully his. If the defender is pressuring the offensive player too much and is in his vertical space it is not the offensive players fault that his elbow hits the defender in the face.

I can see a lot more acting jobs because of this rule. Defenders are going to be putting their heads and faces in the way of the offensive player and falling to ground like they just got shot.
 
sioux34 said:
duff, despite the tome you posted on the subject, you and I both know that is not how charging/blocking gets called. In most cases, if the defender is not set in stone, it will be a block. The only exception we generally see is if the ball handler uses an arm to push off and make space.
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I can tell you that's EXACTLY how we try to call it in every HS game I've been a part of. We discuss it frequently during our pre-game, we discuss it pre-season, and it's always part of the HS and NCAA off season rules meeting and discussion.
 
tdhawkeye said:
There is also a rule saying that the offensive player has the right to vertical space, so when Cole was stepping through and had position established with his feet and stood upright with the ball up at his head he was in a space that was rightfully his. If the defender is pressuring the offensive player too much and is in his vertical space it is not the offensive players fault that his elbow hits the defender in the face.

I can see a lot more acting jobs because of this rule. Defenders are going to be putting their heads and faces in the way of the offensive player and falling to ground like they just got shot.
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This makes no sense. If Cole had stayed within his verticle space then contact would not have been made, it's not like the defender was moving into him. It's physically impossible for two things to occupy the same space at the same time.
 
DuffMan said:
I can tell you that's EXACTLY how we try to call it in every HS game I've been a part of. We discuss it frequently during our pre-game, we discuss it pre-season, and it's always part of the HS and NCAA off season rules meeting and discussion.
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NOW I understand why I have witnessed so much ridiculous officiating over the years in HS sports.
 
DuffMan said:
Please enlighten the rest of us.
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Frankly Duff you don't want me to go there and neither do I. I will only get really PO'd and you will at the very minimum be embarassed to have any connection in the least to Iowa HS Athletic officiating.
 
Obviously you have your issues, but I'll say this. High school basketball officials are collectively the best bunch of people I have ever worked with. The vast majority of us do this in our spare time, and few I know do it for the money. We do it because we love the game, and like being involved in kids lives.

Officials are business owners, and doctors, and lawyers, and construction workers. I know several who routinely take 2 hours of vaccation from $30+ an hour jobs to drive 100 miles to BFE just to make 90 bucks working a varsity double header.

It's a job few are capable of doing, and it's a job few are willing to do. Again as bad as you think the officials are in your local high school gym understand two things. 1) They dedicate countless hours of their spare time working hard to become the best officials they can be, and 2) They are best officials availible in your area.

/rant
 
DuffMan said:
Obviously you have your issues, but I'll say this. High school basketball officials are collectively the best bunch of people I have ever worked with. The vast majority of us do this in our spare time, and few I know do it for the money. We do it because we love the game, and like being involved in kids lives.

Officials are business owners, and doctors, and lawyers, and construction workers. I know several who routinely take 2 hours of vaccation from $30+ an hour jobs to drive 100 miles to BFE just to make 90 bucks working a varsity double header.

It's a job few are capable of doing, and it's a job few are willing to do. Again as bad as you think the officials are in your local high school gym understand two things. 1) They dedicate countless hours of their spare time working hard to become the best officials they can be, and 2) They are best officials availible in your area.

/rant
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I respect what you do. Gosh, that was hard. I would never do it. I will never forget being a ref at a kids game when I was in high school. I had never been a ref before and this was like a tournament for 4th graders or something. After the game a parent came out of the stands and told me that it was the worst officiated game he had ever seen. My old man heard it and I thought he was going to take his head off. But for the majority of this thread we are talking about those who do it for a living.
 
tdhawkeye said:
There is also a rule saying that the offensive player has the right to vertical space, so when Cole was stepping through and had position established with his feet and stood upright with the ball up at his head he was in a space that was rightfully his. If the defender is pressuring the offensive player too much and is in his vertical space it is not the offensive players fault that his elbow hits the defender in the face.

I can see a lot more acting jobs because of this rule. Defenders are going to be putting their heads and faces in the way of the offensive player and falling to ground like they just got shot.
Click to expand...

DuffMan said:
This makes no sense. If Cole had stayed within his verticle space then contact would not have been made, it's not like the defender was moving into him. It's physically impossible for two things to occupy the same space at the same time.
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Duff, I truly appreciate your attempts to explain this and I understand that referees have to call by the rulebook and this is an area of focus now. As I posted in a previous thread, the powers that be in world soccer have had referees focusing on above the shoulder contact for the past year as well.

I do think tdhawk has a valid point and that referees are going to need to be aware that coaches and players at the highest levels are going to be aware of this new focus or interpretation. It is difficult enough for a big man to collect the ball, turn to shoot, firmly put his hands and arms up to prepare for the shot without having the ball stripped or grabbed, and to take an allowed step towards the basket, with having a defender collapse on him from the blind side.

From watching the many replays of Cole's foul, it appears the defender was equally as responsible for initiating the contact. And as I have said, he sold the contact well and made sure the referees were aware of it.
 
I understand your point Tweeter, but I don't see too many people standing in line to take an eblow to the face from Jarryd Cole just to get two free throws and the ball.
 
DuffMan said:
Obviously you have your issues, but I'll say this. High school basketball officials are collectively the best bunch of people I have ever worked with. The vast majority of us do this in our spare time, and few I know do it for the money. We do it because we love the game, and like being involved in kids lives.

Officials are business owners, and doctors, and lawyers, and construction workers. I know several who routinely take 2 hours of vaccation from $30+ an hour jobs to drive 100 miles to BFE just to make 90 bucks working a varsity double header.

It's a job few are capable of doing, and it's a job few are willing to do. Again as bad as you think the officials are in your local high school gym understand two things. 1) They dedicate countless hours of their spare time working hard to become the best officials they can be, and 2) They are best officials availible in your area.

/rant
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Duff, that was a real inspiring rant. But your not a war hero because you officiate. I've officiated before ,its not that hard to do other than dealing with people.
The key is to do your best and not be afraid to admit when your wrong,it happens so get it fixed and keep going.Thats really all people are asking for is to do your best to get it right.
You don't know me so I'm not sure why you think you know I have issues. I have witness things on the most basic levels that are frankly not acceptable at any level of officiating.If you haven't walked in my shoes don't judge.
My judgement of you comes directly from your posts that show you have a real problem with not being right. Always cite a rule book to show your right.I've experienced that attitude a 100 times before from officials and its usually a bad indicator of a power tripper. And yea I have issues with power trippers because they don't have respect for others and the power of the position they are given. Its their crutch to be right even if they are wrong. That is a sign of a weak person in my mind and its not what the job is about.
Don't preach to me about time and effort. Those kids work way harder than you do and so do the coaches. I've put way more hours and way more money than you coaching and running kids all across America to live their dreams.It was my choice and I loved it but I don't expect society to revere me for it.
 
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