If you think College Refs are bad, Iowa High School has them as well

EstronHawkKing

Well-Known Member
Tuesday night, Waterloo West faced North Scott at the U.S. Cellular Center in Cedar Rapids, the winner would go to state next week in Des Moines. The WaHawks had a two point lead with only 0.6 left in the game. A Lancer player threw a Hail Mary pass down court. #32 for North Scott (who will play for UNI next year) leaped up, caught the ball, landed on his feet, had to adjust his body and threw up a prayer of a shot that was a long distance shot and made the basket for the Lancer to win the game by one point. The WaHawk head coach after the game said with only 0.6 left that it would be physically in human to do that with only that much time left. After the game, the refs with in seconds awarded the basket (not sure if they have replay monitors in Iowa HS hoops?) and they ran off the court immediatley after the game ended. Best part, those refs are from North Scott and the person running the game clock was from North Scott and multiple people at the game and on West's bench said the clock operator started the clock late. Look at these photos and I wonder if the IHSAA will do anything about this? W West got screwed big time and why would you have refs and a clock operator for one of the teams playing even working a big game like that?!?!? Really not fair to West High.


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Wow with that picture one would hope that IHSAA would do the right thing, but we all know they are to scared to do that!!
 
This is a pretty extreme example but with youth/high school sports going the way they are, which is basically open season on baseball umps & basketball officials, pretty soon they’ll be asking for volunteers from the crowd to ump & officiate games or have to cancel them.

I’m not excusing this clock operator or the ref crew but they’re basically volunteers who get paid a little bit for giving their time and listening to spectators complain the entire time
 
Wow with that picture one would hope that IHSAA would do the right thing, but we all know they are to scared to do that!!
Of course they won't, they are gutless. The IHAAS might have a private talk with the officials. They really need a shot clock in HS hoops as well
 
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The picture proves that even if the clock operator was a fraction of a second late starting the clock it was impossible to get this shot off by the way it was described.

The NBA has timed this stuff out and I think 6 10ths of a second is a catch and shoot in one motion. No catching, coming down to the ground, turning, etc. This is like JFK stuff with how can one guy get 3 shots off with a bolt action rifle in such a short time.
 
This is a pretty extreme example but with youth/high school sports going the way they are, which is basically open season on baseball umps & basketball officials, pretty soon they’ll be asking for volunteers from the crowd to ump & officiate games or have to cancel them.

I’m not excusing this clock operator or the ref crew but they’re basically volunteers who get paid a little bit for giving their time and listening to spectators complain the entire time

While I agree with you that the clock operate should get the benefit of the doubt because they are essentially a volunteer, I can't agree with you refs all into that category as well. That said though you are absolutely correct that there is a shortage of officials that is only going to get worse. The question is how do you improve the quality of officiating, throughout the sport, when the quantity of the available pool to choose from is falling off.

I coach a varsity sport, and at the end of every season we are responsible for recommending 5 officials to officiate at the state tournament the following year. And the last few seasons, I've been reprimanded for failing to produce a list of 5 that I came across that season that I feel are worthy of such recognition. By no means am I doing it as a slap in the face to the officials I've encountered, I simply don't the quality is there to make such a recommendation. It's a major problem.
 
Of course they won't, they are gutless.

My question then would be how would that be fair to other programs (although I 100% agree that it isn't fair to Waterloo West) that have lost in similar fashion who didn't get that luxury. Furthermore, I could see a major fallout from an already depleted pool of officials in the event the outcome of the game is reversed, which could be equally detrimental to the officiating problems already faced state wide.
 
Seriously...it s HS. Raise ticket prices substantially, pay more and get better equipment.

Have real rules for fan, coach, and player suspension including criminal penalties.

Openly rate refs. Fo to monitors and bitch about delays.

Our church at the time went to electronic timing and video cameras at the Awana Grand Prix pine car racing.

Don't complain about the current crews until it's done professionally.


The kid still caught the pass and made it.

See where the defender is? He has more blame than the crew.

Who is to say she didn't flip the switch early?

The shirt is in poor taste.
 
The outcome sucks because in this case there is proof that they got it wrong. However with that said, there's a human element and it's based on their judgement. They don't have the luxury of going back and reviewing it or controlling, with precision, whether or not the clock was started at the right time. That said, North Scott made that one final play to force the issue. Had Waterloo West simply made one last play in the final second then there is no judgement call to contest or plead to overturn, and they win the game. Sports can be cruel.
 
Tuesday night, Waterloo West faced North Scott at the U.S. Cellular Center in Cedar Rapids, the winner would go to state next week in Des Moines. The WaHawks had a two point lead with only 0.6 left in the game. A Lancer player threw a Hail Mary pass down court. #32 for North Scott (who will play for UNI next year) leaped up, caught the ball, landed on his feet, had to adjust his body and threw up a prayer of a shot that was a long distance shot and made the basket for the Lancer to win the game by one point. The WaHawk head coach after the game said with only 0.6 left that it would be physically in human to do that with only that much time left. After the game, the refs with in seconds awarded the basket (not sure if they have replay monitors in Iowa HS hoops?) and they ran off the court immediatley after the game ended. Best part, those refs are from North Scott and the person running the game clock was from North Scott and multiple people at the game and on West's bench said the clock operator started the clock late. Look at these photos and I wonder if the IHSAA will do anything about this? W West got screwed big time and why would you have refs and a clock operator for one of the teams playing even working a big game like that?!?!? Really not fair to West High.


89091638_10222036369916772_4631248997460213760_o.jpg
89070790_10219771995987148_899971445818392576_n.jpg
I don't disagree that the wrong call was made, but just a few thoughts.

1) Those refs should probably not be working that game, but there are a number of factors that come into play. Here's how officials are assigned to post season (in Iowa)...

As you officiate throughout the year, coaches make recommendations for officials they feel should work post season games. Officials do not see these recommendations and they have no part in being selected, i.e. they don't ask. When post season rolls around, refs get informed that they get such and such games. Hometown of officials is not considered, if it was, the shortage would be much worse than it already is. But here's thje caveat....

At the beginning (or anytime really), officials are allowed to submit via the third party website (usually refview.com or Arbiter) a list of schools that they won't work for. One of my coworkers is a really, really good official who does Iowa HS and NCAA Div-3, and gets state tournament games every year. He has his hometown school and two of their biggest rivals on his do not schedule list. He just refuses to do them. It's not because he couldn't be impartial, but because he knows how it looks. Myself, I work regular season games for my hometown team (I still live there and actually played for them back in the day), but I stipulate that I do not work varsity plates, and I would never in a billion years work a playoff game for them.

I say all this because preventing homer perception is really a personal responsibility of the individual official. Could you imagine the headache it would be to try and police it at the IAHSAA level? holy shit dude. What if the guy didn't live in a certain town but went to school there? Or vice versa? It's just way too much when you consider all of the sports and the very limited staff the IAHSAA has. Basically he should have recused himself from that game for the exact reason that happened here.

2)
After the game, the refs with in seconds awarded the basket (not sure if they have replay monitors in Iowa HS hoops?) and they ran off the court immediatley after the game ended.
This is expected and in every officiating handbook from HS on up through pro sports. Officials are always directed to get off the court/field/diamond IMMEDIATELY after the game. Absolutely nothing good comes from sticking around---at all. You don't talk to or thank coaches, you don't talk to or thank players, and no fucking way do you address fans. In the baseball handbook it even goes so far to list as part of pregame that you should identify and know where the exits are before you start so you can get the F to your car as soon as the third out is called. Next time you're at a college or pro sporting event live, no matter what sport, watch the officials after time expires. They are off the playing area within ten seconds. Every time.

And HS sports in Iowa don't have video replay. Even if a school did it's not allowed and there are no provisions for it in the rules.

3) Unfortunately, the officials were at the mercy of the clock operator. They can't reverse it because their indication that the game ended is the horn sounding. They can't be watching the clock, especially at the end of a game like that where they have to be watching feet, procedurals, etc. They made the correct call that they were supposed to. It was the clock operator's F up.

4) I'll get on my soapbox...

As an official, I definitely think clock operators should be paid "officials" even if it's at a lower level. Similar to like how a VB line judge doesn't have to be certified at the level of a normal official, but they have to have some sort of knowledge and testing. Getting a 4th grade math teacher as she's walking out the door to go home and giving her 5 minutes of training because she's the only one available doesn't cut the mustard. However on the flipside, there's such a profound shortage of officials who get paid $130 a night, how do you think they're going to find enough people to run a clock for $20 or whatever?

5) Lastly, the IAHSAA will do nothing, and really, they shouldn't. Their (and other states' policies) are that they stick with officials' calls. They've admitted misses plenty of times, but they don't reverse anything. When you really think about it, if they reversed a call, imagine the shit storm of coaches and parents raining down on them every time there was some blown call at the end of a game in Iowa. It would be fucking madness because the flood gates would fly open. There are tens of thousands of athletic contests in Iowa, and there's controversy in just about every one of them. People have this idea that the IAHSAA is some big huge entity with tons of people and lots of money. In truth there's a tiny handful of people in Boone all making "regular" wages and trying to coordinate the entire state. Good luck with that.

Bottom line...the clock operator fucked it up, the refs had no power within the rules to overturn it, and those refs (if they were from that town) should have recused themselves.
 
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@HawkGold Seriously...it s HS. Raise ticket prices substantially, pay more and get better equipment. Sorry, but budgets aren't there for that. Our assignor had to fight tooth and nail to get $5 extra bucks last year and even then less than half the schools agreed.

Have real rules for fan, coach, and player suspension including criminal penalties. This went to the Iowa legislature this year and failed.

Openly rate refs. Fo to monitors and bitch about delays. Most schools can't afford monitors or cameras, nor pay to train people to use them, nor train officials to use them. You think there are F-ups now, wait till you inject a bunch of technology. And as far as openly rating refs, not even college officials are "openly" rated. And who's going to do the ratings? Coaches, 50% of whom just by default think you suck because their team lost? Good luck getting even one single official to work in Iowa. And what happens when the dork student running the camera misses something or forgets to record? College replays take forever even with highly trained officials and camera crews. Imagine trying to do that in a HS gym where every second going by the crowd is getting more and more pissed, as emotional as IA high school basketball fans and parents get. No way.

Our church at the time went to electronic timing and video cameras at the Awana Grand Prix pine car racing.

Don't complain about the current crews until it's done professionally. THIS


The kid still caught the pass and made it.

See where the defender is? He has more blame than the crew.

Who is to say she didn't flip the switch early?

The shirt is in poor taste. That's a bad, baaaaaaad look and the AD who put the lady at the table should know better.
 
I agree with the coach that the game ended the wrong way, but that coach should know that it wasn't the official's fault. To overturn something there has to be concrete evidence that they saw. You can't just say, "Well Bob, I think .6 seconds is impossible, but .8 seconds might be, so we're gonna reverse the call." Where's your range of possible/impossible times in the rule book?

How about this...what if there was 1.1 seconds on the clock? Is that possible? It's only .5 seconds longer than the actual situation we're dealing with, who's to determine if .6 seconds can't be done, but a half second more can be done?

The officials did what they were supposed to by the book.

The clock operator fucked it up. Her fault and hers alone. This coach is trying to put it on homer refs and it ain't the problem (although I admit it looks shitty).
 
For a minute please listen to what I am saying......lt appears the majority of posters have experiences with high school sports in one way or another. My comment is that the success of any high school sports depends on the volunteers. If you are in here, help our youth and give back. It is up to the previous generations of athletes to influence the development of the next. Whether you can help as a coach, an official, a camp volunteer, middle school etc...we are the ones that improve the game for the future. The quality of sports will diminish with this being 2020 , there are distractions that many of us did not grow up with. Get involved folks............
 
While I agree with you that the clock operate should get the benefit of the doubt because they are essentially a volunteer, I can't agree with you refs all into that category as well. That said though you are absolutely correct that there is a shortage of officials that is only going to get worse. The question is how do you improve the quality of officiating, throughout the sport, when the quantity of the available pool to choose from is falling off.

I coach a varsity sport, and at the end of every season we are responsible for recommending 5 officials to officiate at the state tournament the following year. And the last few seasons, I've been reprimanded for failing to produce a list of 5 that I came across that season that I feel are worthy of such recognition. By no means am I doing it as a slap in the face to the officials I've encountered, I simply don't the quality is there to make such a recommendation. It's a major problem.
The problem with the shortage is that everything that would fix it will degrade quality, and what you guys as coaches (I was one too) want is higher quality. Coaches want to have the cake and eat it too. Money and training is off the table because of budgets.

I have coached a varsity sport as well (baseball) and believe me when I say that the shortage and lack of quality is real. I see it all the time.

I also think that having seen both sides, officiating is more mentally taxing (to do well), whereas coaching at the same level takes a much bigger time commitment and there can be enormous pressures that we as officials don’t feel. There are certainly shitty coaches as you well know, I truly think they are equally hard to do at a high level.

In order to get a varsity-level coaching certificate you should have to officiate at least one full season of that sport. It would give coaches both a better understanding of rules and procedures, as well as an understanding of what officials deal with.

Obviously this will never happen, but in a perfect world I think it should.
 
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For a minute please listen to what I am saying......lt appears the majority of posters have experiences with high school sports in one way or another. My comment is that the success of any high school sports depends on the volunteers. If you are in here, help our youth and give back. It is up to the previous generations of athletes to influence the development of the next. Whether you can help as a coach, an official, a camp volunteer, middle school etc...we are the ones that improve the game for the future. The quality of sports will diminish with this being 2020 , there are distractions that many of us did not grow up with. Get involved folks............
This x 1,000

If anyone here has the balls to step up I can get you set up with enough gear (baseball at least) to work an entire season until you can afford to buy your own. If you’re a basketball or football guy I guarantee you you’ll find the same offer from a local official as well. It’s one of the biggest eye-openers I ever had.
 

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