I have an issue with the all-star game.

The argument about getting deserving all stars, based on stats and their importance to their respective teams, is not lost among most people. However, the ASG rosters are simply a popularity vote. Were their deserving players not selected, absolutely.

But until the system for selecting the players is not based on Yankees/Red Sox fans voting thousands of more times then Royals, Marlins, etc. fans, this will never be resolved. I don't claim to have a perfect solution, but baseball's history is solely based on numbers. If there are 4 players to be considered for whatever position, compare ave, hr, rbi, ops, era, k's, and let the best man in.

Subjectivity is hurting this game, as proved by the lowest tv ratings for the ASG ever (7.5, down 16% from last year). 'The decision' got higher ratings than this game and that's a shame.
 
Hawkize1 said:
What other stat do you consider when looking at a teams hitting prowess?
Because MLB stats under hitting brings AVG in first.

When players are at the plate what's the first stat you see? average? then RBI's?

Tell Ted Williams (if he wasn't dead) that his .406 doesn't mean anything, because that stat is over-rated.

And tell anyone who's ever been close to hitting .400 in a season, that average is over-rated.

Good luck with that!


Butler or Dejesus probably Butler.
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You don't, you look at on-base percentage, or slugging, or OPS.
 
To piggyback on what HawksnSox said, that is the real problem with this game. The league (and Fox) are going to try us that "this one counts" and that the game means something, but at the same time lets fans fill out the rosters. If the game counts, and is actually supposed to be meaningful, stop letting guys like Omar Infante and Jason Heyward on the team. If "this one counts" and home field for the World Series is on the line, then take the fans (read:biased) vote out of the equation. If rosters were made up purely on merit, Derek Jeter would suddenly find three days off in the middle of the season that he never had before.

Or...keep the fan vote and admit what everyone knows to be true - that the ASG is nothing more than an exhibition. Give home field to the team with the best regular-season record, like every other pro league in the country does. The league all ready does that with the playoffs, I don't see how expanding that to the World Series would be difficult.

I know that they're trying to make it relavent and exciting, but it's not working now, and hasn't worked since they've tried it.
 
GravyJones said:
Something, OK everything, tells me you don't know a whole lot about baseball.

Plenty of ASGs are played with players who never make an appearance. It's not often that a player of A-Rod's stature is left out, but it's hardly unprecedented. Had Ortiz not been thrown out at 2nd, I'd bet a pretty penny A-Rod would have been put in his place to run.

Butler over Ortiz is a silly argument. Ortiz is having a much better year offensively and was brought as a DH. What 1B should he replace? Konerko is also having a much better year than Butler, and Wigginton pretty much had to be there since the entire Orioles team is terrible yet the rules state they need a representative. Had he been chosen along with another Oriole, your point is somewhat valid. Which outfielder would DeJesus replace considering all of those selected are having better seasons?

While baseball doesn't have a salary cap, they do have a luxury tax and revenue sharing. For example, your Royals probably get $30-40 MILLION per season given to them because they are a small market team. The Royals biggest problem is that Dayton Moore has proven to be a terrible General Manager.
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Gravy one point I will give you here is that, I don't know alot about the contracts these players signed and their relationship to upper management, but to tell me I don't know anything about baseball the game is completely absurd. I have played this game at a high level through college, I've umpired at the HS level, and I still play baseball in a DM woodbat league for players 35 and over. If there is one thing I know!
It's the game of baseball. It's my sport of choice. (to play).

My point behind this probably not stated the best is that: My Royals cannot compete with the Yankees, Dodgers, and Red Sox of the world for good free agents, and make trades during the season for star players that will help them make a run toward a post season bid. The Royals only seem to feed their good players to these high profile teams. I'm frustrated that the smaller market teams seem to feed their better players to larger market teams. I guess if your a fan of theYankees, Red Sox, Dodgers and such that's the way you like it. I don't! I'd like to see the Mariners, Royals, Orioles, etc. get their turn to be good again. I will state right now for the record that "if the Yankees are in the wold series again, I will not watch a single pitch" Mark it down.
 
It's great the NL won the ASG. Now St. Louis will have home field advantage when they beat the Yankees for the WS title.
 
Maybe if you weren't sitting 10.5 games back in a very weak AL Central then maybe your players would actually make the team?

Adding salary caps is ridiculous. Free agency is the issue. Teams like KC could have one of the best farm systems in the world but never get out of the cellar because those players are going to get signed by opposing teams.

Teams should draft players and keep players until their services are no longer needed. Players either sign the contracts that are presented to them or they get cut. If they get cut, they can not sign with another team for 1 or 2 yrs - kind of a non-compete agreement for athletes. Minimum standards are set (think minimum wage) and you create an extensive bonus structure for all major statistical categories.

An example would be HRs. You hit 1-5 HRs earns you $50,000; 6-10 earns you $100,000; 11-15 earns you $200,000; 16-20 earns you $250,000; 21-30 earns you $400,000; 31 to 40 gets you $750,000 and 41 + gets you $1 million bonus.

Players are paid to play. If they don't perform, they get their base salary and run the risk of getting cut the next year and not playing in the league for up to 2 yrs.
 
GravyJones said:
Something, OK everything, tells me you don't know a whole lot about baseball.

Plenty of ASGs are played with players who never make an appearance. It's not often that a player of A-Rod's stature is left out, but it's hardly unprecedented. Had Ortiz not been thrown out at 2nd, I'd bet a pretty penny A-Rod would have been put in his place to run.

Butler over Ortiz is a silly argument. Ortiz is having a much better year offensively and was brought as a DH. What 1B should he replace? Konerko is also having a much better year than Butler, and Wigginton pretty much had to be there since the entire Orioles team is terrible yet the rules state they need a representative. Had he been chosen along with another Oriole, your point is somewhat valid. Which outfielder would DeJesus replace considering all of those selected are having better seasons?

While baseball doesn't have a salary cap, they do have a luxury tax and revenue sharing. For example, your Royals probably get $30-40 MILLION per season given to them because they are a small market team. The Royals biggest problem is that Dayton Moore has proven to be a terrible General Manager.
Click to expand...

I have the stats this year for both.
G AB R H TB 2B 3B HR RBI BB IBB SO AVG OBP SLG OPS

Butler 87 329 44 106 159 26 0 9 46 37 4 41 .322 .389 .483 .873

Ortiz 74 251 46 66 141 21 0 18 57 50 8 74 .263 .384 .562 .945


You can't tell me that David Ortiz's 18 homeruns when 1/2 games are played with a short right field porch in Fenway is that impressive?
Butler has a much higher avg, has hit more 2Bs struck out way less in more AB and games, has a better OBP C'mon the proof is in the stats. David Ortiz did not deserve to go to the All Star game over Butler. Besides Butler is an all around player not just a DH! Look at Boston's roster under DH!
Look, the game is history, it cannot be changed, but the point I'm trying to make is that the bias people have for Large market teams/players over lesser known smaller market teams/players. Butler is quietly having a very good year. And is not getting the accolades.
 
hawkeye12345 said:
Maybe if you weren't sitting 10.5 games back in a very weak AL Central then maybe your players would actually make the team?

Adding salary caps is ridiculous. Free agency is the issue. Teams like KC could have one of the best farm systems in the world but never get out of the cellar because those players are going to get signed by opposing teams.

Teams should draft players and keep players until their services are no longer needed. Players either sign the contracts that are presented to them or they get cut. If they get cut, they can not sign with another team for 1 or 2 yrs - kind of a non-compete agreement for athletes. Minimum standards are set (think minimum wage) and you create an extensive bonus structure for all major statistical categories.

An example would be HRs. You hit 1-5 HRs earns you $50,000; 6-10 earns you $100,000; 11-15 earns you $200,000; 16-20 earns you $250,000; 21-30 earns you $400,000; 31 to 40 gets you $750,000 and 41 + gets you $1 million bonus.

Players are paid to play. If they don't perform, they get their base salary and run the risk of getting cut the next year and not playing in the league for up to 2 yrs.
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Yeah, I'm sure the players union would love that deal. Being out of the league and out of a contract as soon as team thinks you're no longer useful to them is a great deal. Also you contradict your point about a salary cap when you talk about free agency. Who are the teams signing the best players that come up with small market teams? Large market teams that can offer them more money, obviously. I'm against a salary cap, but having more money to play with makes it easier to win, there's no denying that, and to say that it isn't a salary cap issue but a free agency issue is idiotic.
 
Hawkize1 said:
I have the stats this year for both.
G AB R H TB 2B 3B HR RBI BB IBB SO AVG OBP SLG OPS

Butler 87 329 44 106 159 26 0 9 46 37 4 41 .322 .389 .483 .873

Ortiz 74 251 46 66 141 21 0 18 57 50 8 74 .263 .384 .562 .945


You can't tell me that David Ortiz's 18 homeruns when 1/2 games are played with a short right field porch in Fenway is that impressive?
Butler has a much higher avg, has hit more 2Bs struck out way less in more AB and games, has a better OBP C'mon the proof is in the stats. David Ortiz did not deserve to go to the All Star game over Butler. Besides Butler is an all around player not just a DH! Look at Boston's roster under DH!
Look, the game is history, it cannot be changed, but the point I'm trying to make is that the bias people have for Large market teams/players over lesser known smaller market teams/players. Butler is quietly having a very good year. And is not getting the accolades.
Click to expand...

There is not a short porch in right field at Fenway. It is only 302 right down the line but within 10 feet of the line it goes back to 380 feet. The distance to the right field seats in Fenway are similar to KC. Right Center and Center field in Fenway are much longer that KC. So yes Papi's 18 home runs are more impressive as is his higher OPS. The only stats Butler dominates is average.
 
Every time I read this forum topic I think "Only one problem"? Take this game for what it's worth, a money grab by MLB. I'm glad the NL finally won one.
 
ShadasRevenge said:
To piggyback on what HawksnSox said, that is the real problem with this game. The league (and Fox) are going to try us that "this one counts" and that the game means something, but at the same time lets fans fill out the rosters. If the game counts, and is actually supposed to be meaningful, stop letting guys like Omar Infante and Jason Heyward on the team. If "this one counts" and home field for the World Series is on the line, then take the fans (read:biased) vote out of the equation. If rosters were made up purely on merit, Derek Jeter would suddenly find three days off in the middle of the season that he never had before.

Or...keep the fan vote and admit what everyone knows to be true - that the ASG is nothing more than an exhibition. Give home field to the team with the best regular-season record, like every other pro league in the country does. The league all ready does that with the playoffs, I don't see how expanding that to the World Series would be difficult.

I know that they're trying to make it relavent and exciting, but it's not working now, and hasn't worked since they've tried it.
Click to expand...

This is what I've argued many times with friends of mine. If you're going to take home field advantage away from the team with the best record and give it to the league that wins the ASG then stop requiring that each team have a representative. If I'm leading my division and have a real shot at home field advantage do I want a player(s) from the cellar dwellars determining the outcome of the game?
 
Ichahawk said:
This is what I've argued many times with friends of mine. If you're going to take home field advantage away from the team with the best record and give it to the league that wins the ASG then stop requiring that each team have a representative. If I'm leading my division and have a real shot at home field advantage do I want a player(s) from the cellar dwellars determining the outcome of the game?
Click to expand...

They didn't take it away from the team with the best record. It used to just alternate leagues, so this way at least it's actual being decided on the field, even if it is just an exhibition, rather than just depending on whether or not it's an even or odd year.
 
hawkinaclownhouse said:
There is not a short porch in right field at Fenway. It is only 302 right down the line but within 10 feet of the line it goes back to 380 feet. The distance to the right field seats in Fenway are similar to KC. Right Center and Center field in Fenway are much longer that KC. So yes Papi's 18 home runs are more impressive as is his higher OPS. The only stats Butler dominates is average.
Click to expand...
How about Butler's 78 more at bats and 33 less strikeouts? Or does that not count in your world?
 
Hawkize1 said:
I have the stats this year for both.
G AB R H TB 2B 3B HR RBI BB IBB SO AVG OBP SLG OPS

Butler 87 329 44 106 159 26 0 9 46 37 4 41 .322 .389 .483 .873

Ortiz 74 251 46 66 141 21 0 18 57 50 8 74 .263 .384 .562 .945


You can't tell me that David Ortiz's 18 homeruns when 1/2 games are played with a short right field porch in Fenway is that impressive?
Butler has a much higher avg, has hit more 2Bs struck out way less in more AB and games, has a better OBP C'mon the proof is in the stats. David Ortiz did not deserve to go to the All Star game over Butler. Besides Butler is an all around player not just a DH! Look at Boston's roster under DH!
Look, the game is history, it cannot be changed, but the point I'm trying to make is that the bias people have for Large market teams/players over lesser known smaller market teams/players. Butler is quietly having a very good year. And is not getting the accolades.
Click to expand...
You shouldn't compare the stats as part of your argument when all it does is prove your argument wrong. While 873 is quite nice, 945 is much, much better.
 
GravyJones said:
You shouldn't compare the stats as part of your argument when all it does is prove your argument wrong. While 873 is quite nice, 945 is much, much better.
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So were gonna pull 1 stat out to make your arguement?
Take a look at the overall picture.

Why can't you people look at these stats and say Butler is having a great year and deserves some credit.

Popularity should not be part of the all-star selection process.
 
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Hawkize1 said:
Gravy one point I will give you here is that, I don't know alot about the contracts these players signed and their relationship to upper management, but to tell me I don't know anything about baseball the game is completely absurd. I have played this game at a high level through college, I've umpired at the HS level, and I still play baseball in a DM woodbat league for players 35 and over. If there is one thing I know!
It's the game of baseball. It's my sport of choice. (to play).

My point behind this probably not stated the best is that: My Royals cannot compete with the Yankees, Dodgers, and Red Sox of the world for good free agents, and make trades during the season for star players that will help them make a run toward a post season bid. The Royals only seem to feed their good players to these high profile teams. I'm frustrated that the smaller market teams seem to feed their better players to larger market teams. I guess if your a fan of theYankees, Red Sox, Dodgers and such that's the way you like it. I don't! I'd like to see the Mariners, Royals, Orioles, etc. get their turn to be good again. I will state right now for the record that "if the Yankees are in the wold series again, I will not watch a single pitch" Mark it down.
Click to expand...
There is a giant chasm between knowing how to play baseball and knowing the intricacies of the game as evidenced by your posts. You simply cannot look at any 1 stat in a vacuum to determine a player's worth as compared to another. If there's anything that Bill James, the SABR community, and many others have taught over the years, it's that baseball's conventional wisdom is misguided and terribly flawed, if not completely wrong. I can cite many examples if you like.

The biggest "problem" in MLB is that most teams continue to fill their management ranks with those old-timey baseball folks who rely on old-timey scouts to evaluate talent when advanced statistics will easily give them a better picture of what to expect. If you ever get a chance, read Moneyball by Michael Lewis. The book touches on exactly what the issue is with small market teams and how they can be competitive with the Yankees, Red Sox, Cubs, Dodgers, etc. Teams like Oakland had sustained success for years not because of a big payroll but because they used these advanced statistics to evaluate players. Their process for evaluating talent was so different they were able to field competitive teams without paying top dollar.

Look at the total amount paid in salaries for the Chicago Cubs in the Jim Hendry era and compare it to the Florida Marlins over the same time period then look at the overall records for those two teams. You'll see that spending does not guarantee victory as the Marlins have a better overall record. It's about getting people in place who can accurately assess talent. As I said before, Kansas City's biggest problem is not revenue, it's that Dayton Moore is absolutely terrible at his job. The Royals have some fantastic players who are only a year or two away from being really good major league players, but you should fear that the team will still not be good because Moore will fill out the rest of the roster with guys like Ankiel, Kendall, and Podsednik.
 
Hawkize1 said:
So were gonna pull 1 stat out to make your arguement?
Take a look at the overall picture.

Why can't you people look at these stats and say Butler is having a great year and deserves some credit.

Popularity should not be part of the all-star selection process.
Click to expand...
The 1 stat paints a better overall picture of his offensive value; it incorporates total bases and ability to get on base. Strikeouts are horribly overrated for batters. The worst thing you can do on offense is make an out. Whether it's a ground out to the pitcher, a pop fly to RF, or a strikeout, it's an out. The amount of times a ground ball are good for moving a runner over or a sac fly is for driving in a runner is nearly negated by a strikeout avoiding GIDP. I am not the one who is not looking at the overall picture here.

I never said Butler wasn't having a great year. He's just not having as good of a year as Ortiz.
 
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