I have a few thoughts as this season runs to a close..

[cmhawks99]

This has been an outstanding chat here fellas……

Going a little off my typically bent of defending……. I to sometimes wonder why we don’t pour it on a little more, than it seems like we do. Now maybe we can’t or maybe there is something else I’m missing and I do get the methodical pound, pound, pound, burn clock stuff. Though as another mentioned I doubt Wiscy threw down field as much as we did and they still obliterated people. In fact we were pretty explosive at times this year, but we really bogged down at times too. Furthermore we absolutely did not throw the seam pass to the TE at all and it was open often. Now I can’t believe we schemed it out (after all they still ran the route) so something else was going on….

It is odd how they pushed the sneak tempo like they did near season end, because Vandy seemingly got it at will early on. Though I will say that still falls on execution. We can’t expect our guys to get lined up for a quick play?! Maybe they wanted to set it up for something over the top eventually and they were trying to push tempo for a later play, yet our players let us down?! And no I’m not big on calling out the players either, but obviously we did not execute on many levels this year.

On a couple asides…as much as I do get irritated by what I read…and in response to HawkeyeMHA, thank-you I usually disappear in season because my heart can’t take the criticisms and the losses together…..it has compelled me to watch closely and learn what is or isn’t truly happening. I too have watched FSU, Alabama, USC etc…play very soft coverage and thought hmmmm that’s interesting.

I’ve watched teams play very similar to Iowa in fact and I’ve watched teams that play completely different lose a lot of games.

One other thing about our Lbers. I agree with the premise that sometimes we are faster and more athletic, but I would point out that Klinkenborg was in the shorts of one of the faster guys in the Big 12 (Bates) 40 yards down field on the fateful play that lost us that game. He just missed the ball and ironically enuff so have our CB’s and Sftys on multiple occasions in recent years. And I don’t know for sure what Nielsen runs, but I personally watched him run Noel Devine down from behind in the Army All-American game and I do know of a web-site that lists him at 6-4 248 and running a 4.58. I think he is faster than you think and a legitimate NFL prospect on some level, if healthy.

Chad

 

[cmhawks99]

chad is back, havent seen him on here in a while. good to see you chadderbox

Thanks old friend and as I said in the post above, I usually disappear in season (for the last couple years) because it hurts my heart to read what people say. I’m already mad myself about the loss, I don’t need to read the off the cuff others say when they are mad.

Chad

 

[PCHawk]

Chad... The one thing I don't like about your post is giving examples of when being aggressive hasn't worked. Nothing works all the time in football, its all about playing percentages. With 2 minutes left the team with the ball has a big advantage over the team without it. Playing for overtime takes that advantage away. When you try to score in regulation and it backfires people will say "being aggressive cost us a chance to win" what they don't realize is trying to score in regulation WAS our chance to win. Great OP by the way

 

[PCHawk]

Regarding the 08 Michigan State game. I think going for it on 4th was the right call and it wasn't even very close. When you factor in the odds of making the field goal ( it was between 45 and 50 yards I think) and the odds of them not going down and scoring (there was about 2 minutes left) the odds of getting to overtime was not that good. Then you have to factor in the odds of winning in OT. The odds of winning the game if we lined up for that field goal was pretty small giving all of that

 

[BackNBlk]

Regarding the 08 Michigan State game. I think going for it on 4th was the right call and it wasn't even very close. When you factor in the odds of making the field goal ( it was between 45 and 50 yards I think) and the odds of them not going down and scoring (there was about 2 minutes left) the odds of getting to overtime was not that good. Then you have to factor in the odds of winning in OT. The odds of winning the game if we lined up for that field goal was pretty small giving all of that

I don't have a problem going for it, but I would rather they call a PA rollout pass to the TE. Defense would have been thinking a run by Greene and chances were good we could have fooled them.

 

[TylerSash]

I don't have a problem going for it, but I would rather they call a PA rollout pass to the TE. Defense would have been thinking a run by Greene and chances were good we could have fooled them.

Pretty dumb post.

If you can't line up and get a yard with that RB and that OL, then you don't deserve to win the game.

Said by a person who was actually there.

 

[BackNBlk]

Pretty dumb post.

If you can't line up and get a yard with that RB and that OL, then you don't deserve to win the game.

Said by a person who was actually there.

Yes, because we know everything has to be so obvious. We wouldn't dare be tricky because we have such an awesome RB that using him as a decoy would be a waste. As if being at that game actually has anything to do with it. Quit trolling and act like an adult.

 

[TylerSash]

Yes, because we know everything has to be so obvious. We wouldn't dare be tricky because we have such an awesome RB that using him as a decoy would be a waste. As if being at that game actually has anything to do with it. Quit trolling and act like an adult.

Again, if you can't get a yard (with the best RB and one of the best OLs in school history), you don't deserve to win the game.

Act like an adult and accept the responsibility that they beat us straight up and were the better team that day, and stop being a whiny bit^h that has to blame everything on the coaches for not calling your favorite play.

 

[bcl20]

People are really mad about losing a game 3 years ago.

 

[steelhawks]

Excellent Post!!! Sometimes we let the game of football become too big in how it effects us. I agree things seem great with wins and tough with losses but fully understand the sarcastic reponse of how we as fans have become at times! I just wish it were that easy to change the way i feel about the direction of my beloved hawks are headed in. Enjoyed the post!

 

[BackNBlk]

Act like an adult and accept the responsibility that they beat us straight up and were the better team that day, and stop being a whiny bit^h that has to blame everything on the coaches for not calling your favorite play.

You obviously don't pay attention very well do you? I'm not dwelling on the fact that we called a play that didn't work. Nor am I not giving credit to MSU for playing well. I was replying to PCHawk about what I would have done in that situation. I don't blame the coaches for not calling a different play. I am perfectly fine with the play they called. I've actually defended the coaches on here quite often, so you can go play your childish name game somewhere else. Oh, and don't say "act like an adult," because you obviously don't know the meaning of the word.

 

[cmhawks99]

Chad... The one thing I don't like about your post is giving examples of when being aggressive hasn't worked. Nothing works all the time in football, its all about playing percentages. With 2 minutes left the team with the ball has a big advantage over the team without it. Playing for overtime takes that advantage away. When you try to score in regulation and it backfires people will say "being aggressive cost us a chance to win" what they don't realize is trying to score in regulation WAS our chance to win. Great OP by the way

Howdy PC….

1st off please know I’m not trying to be sneaky and cherry pick certain plays. I think we could both point out countless examples to show success both ways, just as I took a few examples to show KF is indeed aggressive at times. There are other examples that worked. Sadly much of the crew doesn’t think there was any period.

2nd the percentage play is exactly what most of these guys are upset about…

Chad

 

[rpmhawk]

Maybe I'm in the minority here, but I don't think there is a right or wrong scheme to be played. People that are just ******** about the slow, conservative, blah blah playing are missing the point. That same scheme gave us many stats we've been quite proud of, at least on this site. Like the "Iowa hasn't been beaten by more than a score in X years" or "Iowa can play with any team on any given day" etc etc. Its all about a play in the context of the game. I also hate this myth that Ferentz simply "plays the percentages". Horace the Cow over on BlackHeartGoldPants has an excellent column each week that, many times, has de-pants'ed that theory and shown that quite often, the "aggressive" call has less to lose and much more to gain, thus being the correct "numbers" call. Anyway, I've responded to a few of the below scenarios to play...um...Jesus? to your devil's advocate

Again, not arguing here, but playing devil’s advocate and pointing out our human nature of remembering what we want to remember…..

3 games……

1 very recent from Oklahoma…….Bobby’s aggressive decision to force Baylor’s hand (when they were being conservative) and them ultimately saying...â€oh yeah, screw you†and marching down the field for a score, when they were prepared to go to OT.

2 that involved us that our fans have forgotten and undoubtedly there were more as KF isn’t as stodgy as we like to pretend…..

Indiana a few years ago…we are leading like 17 to 3 with about 2 minutes left and we decide to field a punt inside our 10 and run with it, fumble the ball and give up a late TD, that ultimately shifted momentum and we lost the game.
I would argue here that fielding a punt here is a mistake in all cases. It's not because it was "aggressive", but its almost uniformly taught to let the ball bounce into the endzone when its at the 10 or less yardline. It all depends on how the ball was bouncing, if it even did. I'm sure Ferentz was the last person who wanted his player to field it in an attempt to pick up a few extra yards. Also, given the score at the time and considering we were the favorites, its in our favor to leave the score as is and not accept unnecessary risk.

NW…same scenario (heck it could have been the same year) and I think the same score and we come running up to about the 40, get cute and fumble with the same scenario and final outcome….Same as above essentially, but when they player gets to the 40 and fumbles, its basically just a bad play on his part. I don't think many people were pointing the finger at Ferentz for "being too aggressive" there. That was actually just a lack of execution, unlike many other situations Ferentz likes to label as such

In both scenarios the same fans who complain about our conservativeness wondered why KF let them field those punts…..get my drift. It’s the winning and losing, not the play calling or conservativeness. We see what we want….
These were also scenarios where it wasn't necessarily a "called play". I can't prove it, but I doubt Ferentz told them to field those, especially the first example.

2 other situations come to mind that I questioned a tick...…MSU game in 2008, FG probably wins that game, yet we go for it on 4th. Very aggressive and I’ve seen it done with about 50-50 outcomes. If it works he is a hero and people laud him for “finally†getting it….it doesn’t and we lose….and of course it was stupid.In this situation a FG ties the game and we either go into overtime, or risk giving them the ball back with time (dont remember what the clock was). Considering it was on the road and we had Shonn Greene, going for it is the right call. And you'll notice, no one continues to lament that play on these boards, because they recognize it as a smart gamble and accept the consequences.

Orange Bowl, we fake a FG (though of course we did win) when in all honesty I can’t figure out why…..but hey I respect his decision, but oddly he gets no credit for it, because of course it didn’t work…we see what we want.
This one I don't remember the situation clearly enough to give input on the play calling. You're probably right that no one remembers it because we won the game

Chad

 

[rpmhawk]

One more thought to sum everything up.(ok it turned into several) I think Chad's point earlier about football being a game "where your eyes need to be constantly open and reacting" is absolutely correct. Myself and others, in our criticisms, are starting to wonder and potentially lose faith, that maybe Ferentz has grown weary of the grind and stopped "keeping his eyes open" all the time.(completely understandable btw. I salute the man for giving us this many years of good football. I know for sure I couldn't do it, or many people for that matter) I also believe that our coordinators are better than the credit they receive often from these boards (yes even KoK). However, if its getting to the point where the staff is in a "rut" or growing stale, sometimes the only option is to get a new perspective in the house, someone who will question things, put people on their toes and hopefully wake everyone up.

While coaching and scheme don't have a direct effect on plays and execution, do you think if couch potatoes like us can figure out when a playcall is a net loss before the snap, don't you think players can too? I can't imagine putting my all into a game and seeing the team give maximum effort and then lose on a lousy call. (Im not saying this every happened, basically just a perfect storm, hypothetical) Eventually, if you do fall victim to that mindset, it effects your preparation and ultimately your execution. I'm not saying that explains some of the recent "dead" effort on the field or lack of enthusiasm, just a hypothesis.

One more analogy for the poker players out there. Sometimes, in the past year or two, it feels like Ferentz is that player who plays one style. His happens to be conservative. He plays it when he's ahead and when he's behind and regardless of his position to the blind. Any good player knows you need to constantly shift gears given your relative chip count and position. Sometimes it feels like Ferentz has forgotten that. The Nebraska game was a perfect example - a scenario as the underdog that just screamed "take some chances", or don't punt inside the opponents 40.

Finally, I think the coaches continued to do a great job coaching the defense this year. We simply didn't have the talent to execute on our previous level. The coaches knew this and tried countless things to remedy this - moving player's positions, rotating, calling blitzes at an unprecedented level, more nickel and dime packages, you name it. The players seemed to eventually respond, and in my eyes, we grew as a defense considerably from the beginning of the year.

 

[cmhawks99]

Maybe I'm in the minority here, but I don't think there is a right or wrong scheme to be played. People that are just ******** about the slow, conservative, blah blah playing are missing the point. That same scheme gave us many stats we've been quite proud of, at least on this site. Like the "Iowa hasn't been beaten by more than a score in X years" or "Iowa can play with any team on any given day" etc etc. Its all about a play in the context of the game. I also hate this myth that Ferentz simply "plays the percentages". Horace the Cow over on BlackHeartGoldPants has an excellent column each week that, many times, has de-pants'ed that theory and shown that quite often, the "aggressive" call has less to lose and much more to gain, thus being the correct "numbers" call. Anyway, I've responded to a few of the below scenarios to play...um...Jesus? to your devil's advocate

Good rebuttals, though for the record I have no clue if KF encouraged them to field the punt or not and like you I kind of doubt it. Though back then I did hang on the boards throughout the season and he got the blame for it. And more to the point rarely do people differentiate stupid plays by players and KF. Now that goes with the territory for sure.

But more often than not had player X just executed what was called the play would have been perfect and when player X does not perform it well, it most assuredly clouds the trust or comfort ability to be even more aggressive that’s for sure…..

As far as the MSU play goes it was the right call and I’m still shocked we didn’t get it. As rule I’m not typically up in arms about any call they make because I know us fans (who live in the moment) don’t “really†have enough information to really have a sound opinion. Lots of set up stuff going on at all times in a football game. And in fact if I were in charge I’d run more and pass less and I probably wouldn’t fake a FG ever and a fake a punt very rarely. I’m more of a, if you’re going for it just go kind of guy. And I do shake my head at some of the passes we throw which honestly I know was to set up other things, but they still get labeled as predictable.

Chad

 

[cmhawks99]

One more thought to sum everything up.(ok it turned into several) I think Chad's point earlier about football being a game "where your eyes need to be constantly open and reacting" is absolutely correct. Myself and others, in our criticisms, are starting to wonder and potentially lose faith, that maybe Ferentz has grown weary of the grind and stopped "keeping his eyes open" all the time.(completely understandable btw. I salute the man for giving us this many years of good football. I know for sure I couldn't do it, or many people for that matter) I also believe that our coordinators are better than the credit they receive often from these boards (yes even KoK). However, if its getting to the point where the staff is in a "rut" or growing stale, sometimes the only option is to get a new perspective in the house, someone who will question things, put people on their toes and hopefully wake everyone up.

While coaching and scheme don't have a direct effect on plays and execution, do you think if couch potatoes like us can figure out when a playcall is a net loss before the snap, don't you think players can too? I can't imagine putting my all into a game and seeing the team give maximum effort and then lose on a lousy call. (Im not saying this every happened, basically just a perfect storm, hypothetical) Eventually, if you do fall victim to that mindset, it effects your preparation and ultimately your execution. I'm not saying that explains some of the recent "dead" effort on the field or lack of enthusiasm, just a hypothesis.

One more analogy for the poker players out there. Sometimes, in the past year or two, it feels like Ferentz is that player who plays one style. His happens to be conservative. He plays it when he's ahead and when he's behind and regardless of his position to the blind. Any good player knows you need to constantly shift gears given your relative chip count and position. Sometimes it feels like Ferentz has forgotten that. The Nebraska game was a perfect example - a scenario as the underdog that just screamed "take some chances", or don't punt inside the opponents 40.

Finally, I think the coaches continued to do a great job coaching the defense this year. We simply didn't have the talent to execute on our previous level. The coaches knew this and tried countless things to remedy this - moving player's positions, rotating, calling blitzes at an unprecedented level, more nickel and dime packages, you name it. The players seemed to eventually respond, and in my eyes, we grew as a defense considerably from the beginning of the year.

Another well penned post.....

1st…. all though I’m not willing to say it’s happened to KF and no I wouldn’t be next year either (baring an even bigger collapse) things do go south for good coaches. It’s happened many a time before.

2nd….I don’t believe the kids don’t like playing in this system and per what I’ve read from many sources there are still a lot of kids (maybe even trending back that way) that are very well aware that spread O’s don’t get them ready for the NFL and Iowa’s offense is still really exciting unless you don’t like down field passing and smash mouth running and if not I’d say why watch football at all….


3rd…..It isn’t all that difficult to guess with reasonable predictability what any team is prone to do in most given situations and in fact it may be easier with a spread team. Down and distance makes it fairly easy to pin point the likely plays on a fairly regular basis or at least a couple good guesses and quite frankly it’s why they spend so much time in the film room. If it wasn’t useful for ALL teams they wouldn’t do it.

4th……your poker analogy was a good one, though I propose KF is doing a better job of playing poker than you guys think and as evidence I’ll point out, he goes for it more on 4th down than he ever used to. They throw the ball in obvious run downs much to my chagrin and pulls off plays (NW boot leg-Missouri boot and throw) that had me completely shocked, yet here we are still talking about how conservative he is…….let that sink in for a minute....

Chad

 

[PCHawk]

I have noticed we mixed it up on defense more this year then in the past which is good. I also think if we would have done that last year we wouldn't have wasted all the talent we had. We also went for it more on 4th down this year but you could tell Ferentz was uncomfortable with it. The funny thing is he found out that rushing to the line and sneaking it works so now he is comfortable with that and does it every time. Even when he is trying to be sneaky he is predictable.
My biggest concerns now is clock management and not trying to score at the end of the half and the game when its tied. The funny thing about that is they kind of go hand in hand. I wonder how Ferentz would be at managing a 2 minute drill if he could go back 13 years and try to score at the end of every half in games where we took a knee and went to the locker. That is a lot of missed opportunities to improve on a weakness. Would he still have the problems he has today? Would the players be better at the end of a game when we need a score if they have already done a handful of 2 minute drills at the end of halfs?

 

[cmhawks99]

I have noticed we mixed it up on defense more this year then in the past which is good. I also think if we would have done that last year we wouldn't have wasted all the talent we had. We also went for it more on 4th down this year but you could tell Ferentz was uncomfortable with it. The funny thing is he found out that rushing to the line and sneaking it works so now he is comfortable with that and does it every time. Even when he is trying to be sneaky he is predictable.
My biggest concerns now is clock management and not trying to score at the end of the half and the game when its tied. The funny thing about that is they kind of go hand in hand. I wonder how Ferentz would be at managing a 2 minute drill if he could go back 13 years and try to score at the end of every half in games where we took a knee and went to the locker. That is a lot of missed opportunities to improve on a weakness. Would he still have the problems he has today? Would the players be better at the end of a game when we need a score if they have already done a handful of 2 minute drills at the end of halfs?

I actually thought their clock management was much better this year and just to clarify, it is you that used to get disgusted by me on a regular basis correct….


And your thoughts about yesteryear are apropos, but I guess at this point its water over the bridge. Now however I do see him tweaking and changing every year, that’s probably why I'm not as mad at "just" him as some are. Really we blitzed more last year and played some nickel/dime then too, though I’d agree we did even more this year. Mostly because we had zero other options……To tell you the truth (and this is one of those little twists of life that are opposite to what seems logical) when you don’t have to blitz or substitute, you really become more difficult to game plan for because you aren’t situational subbing…..makes you more difficult to trick, even though you are seemingly more predictable, the cumulative affect is less so…..if that makes any sense…

But I do concur at times you have to do something…though admittedly I saw them do plenty this year and often it still didn’t work. Yet at other times it worked swimmingly. Aggravating year and probably more so for them, I suppose.

Chad

 

[PCHawk]

I actually thought their clock management was much better this year and just to clarify, it is you that used to get disgusted by me on a regular basis correct….


And your thoughts about yesteryear are apropos, but I guess at this point its water over the bridge. Now however I do see him tweaking and changing every year, that’s probably why I'm not as mad at "just" him as some are. Really we blitzed more last year and played some nickel/dime then too, though I’d agree we did even more this year. Mostly because we had zero other options……To tell you the truth (and this is one of those little twists of life that are opposite to what seems logical) when you don’t have to blitz or substitute, you really become more difficult to game plan for because you aren’t situational subbing…..makes you more difficult to trick, even though you are seemingly more predictable, the cumulative affect is less so…..if that makes any sense…

But I do concur at times you have to do something…though admittedly I saw them do plenty this year and often it still didn’t work. Yet at other times it worked swimmingly. Aggravating year and probably more so for them, I suppose.

Chad

You must be thinking of someone else I've only recently been posting. No probs here. Just out of curiosity tho can you give me an example of good clock management this year. I have been trying to think of one and cant

 

[cmhawks99]

You must be thinking of someone else I've only recently been posting. No probs here. Just out of curiosity tho can you give me an example of good clock management this year. I have been trying to think of one and cant

Neither can I honestly but I do know Morehouse charted some end of half stats and we did okay. Seems like we had some late scores against Indiana & someone esle for sure but I can't remebvr who?!

And now that I think a little tighter, PJHawk doesn’t care for me if memory serves though he may just be one of many......

Chad