Huge hypothetical here, if Fran had Raveling's recruits

HuckFinn

Well-Known Member
If point guards looking at Iowa believe their role would be impacted by Fran’s kids, those candidates are not smart enough to play for Iowa.
 

HaydenHawk56

Well-Known Member
Since 1980 Minnesota has won two NIT's and been runner up two other times and may have had another title vacated. The list shows the champions in 1997, 98 and 2003 had their titles stripped and one of them may have been the Gophs.
Thanks Northside.....I also thought of Minny too.
 

Northside Hawk

Well-Known Member
If point guards looking at Iowa believe their role would be impacted by Fran’s kids, those candidates are not smart enough to play for Iowa.
It's not necessarily the intelligence of the point guard recruits as much as it is the perception of reality created by our competitors.

Be good enough at what you do and you can convince people that just about anything is real.
 

HuckFinn

Well-Known Member
It's not necessarily the intelligence of the point guard recruits as much as it is the perception of reality created by our competitors.

Be good enough at what you do and you can convince people that just about anything is real.
Interesting point.
 

BigD

Well-Known Member
If Fran had all of the talent at his finger tips.....how far would he go with it?

Saw a stat where Fran is only 1 of 4 coaches with 30 years of coaching since World War 2 that does not have a Sweet 16 appearance.

So, say we give Fran an uber-talented team....does he get over the hump?
He had one last year. How did that work out?
 

NorthKCHawk

Well-Known Member
Fran is an average recruiter at best, probably because he is, by all accounts, squeaky clean. You don't land the type of talent GR landed without getting into the mud at least a little.

Fran is an above average Xs and Os guy, but with a couple blind spots. He rests his talent too long (especially in the first half), his bench is usually too long, and his refusal to play a star with 2 fouls in the first half is pure stubborn rigidity. Beyond those issues, he calls a good game, draws up plays wells, and generally pushes the right buttons. Certainly better than GR.

Fran is an excellent developer of talent. Well above average and well above GR.

Fran sees talent before his peers. This might be his greatest skill as a coach. He can project what a 16 year old kid will become, not what he is.
 

InGoodCo

Well-Known Member
If Fran's floor is being on the bubble after losing the best C to possibly ever play the game and one of the best players in school history- along with CJ and Nunge, I'll take it. I want to win more too and I wish the ceiling was higher (i think it will be FWIW).....

but I can't really explain to you how much losing all the time really sucks. I mean it really sucks. Iowa has no reason to be good at basketball all the time except they are committed to winning. It's been proven that isn't gimme that Iowa rolls out of bed and makes the tourney. I want a higher ceiling but I also like Fran's floor - he's only had like one really bad year in like the last 10. As a fan that knows his program is likely never going to win at an elite level consistently, I appreciate that.

I get that others don't.... but imo that's playing with fire.
 

MelroseHawkins

Well-Known Member
How far would he have taken them?

Or say, it played to script and they played UNLV. Same results or different?

Who knows, there are so many factors outside of the players. That was a completely different era. Here are some examples.

1) Full Court Hard Press - No coach, outside of Bob Huggins, does this as a part of their normal gameplan. Iowa ran that thing almost the whole game which was fun as hell to watch. Even Bob Huggins doesn't do it as much. The players have evolved over time and even the BIG guys can handle the ball pretty well, some even bringing it up on occasion. The full court press is really giving a team a fast break attempt anymore. So the question is, if that would be an effective part of the game today or a risk/deficiency?
2) Player Evolution - As mentioned above, the players have evolved so much over this time. I think the 3 pt line started around the 1983 season. This was still in the infancy of that game changing advent in b-ball. At that time, teams might have one or two 3 pt sharp shooters on the team and a player shooting 30% 3's was looked at as a sharp shooter. Over time, all kids now have grown up shooting 3's including the 4's and 5's on the floor. This was never like that in the early days. If you watch youth travel teams now and kid's warming up, all they do is shoot 3's. Hell, in my boys' 9th grade game the other night, they had a teammate go like 5 for 5 for 3's that game. The game has changed which completely changed the offensive philosophy. The offensive philosophy has changed as in the 80's it was an inside to out game with a true motion offense. Two guys were on the block with 3 guards. The game has evolved now to a out to in game, meaning often times a 4 out 1 in spread offense to sometimes a 5 out spread (small-ball) offense. The outside game has opened it up and is completely different. Again, teams can do this because the #3, #4 and sometimes the #5 (Garzas) can shoot 21ft out. Now it's a read and react and cutting spread offense compared to the motion offense in the 80's. Complete 180 degree change in philosophy.
3) Officiating - Now add into the mix that the game is called/officiated completely different than in the 1980's. Would that style and would Iowa's players be as effective playing in today's game the way it is officiated? Today there is no hand checking, no bumping, no bodying somebody up. Tick tack fouls called. It was a man's game back in the day and the BIG 10 was a bruising league.

There are other factors to but you get my point. It's so hard to compare players and teams in different eras. But, I'd sure like to see what they could do as those teams were so damn fun to watch. That style was terrific. I'd just worry if they played that style today, all the players would be fouled out in 25 minutes.
 
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MelroseHawkins

Well-Known Member
That's been brought up before and now youngest son Jack is on the horizon. It's the perfect fodder for the competition to use against us.

That said Jack, who I first met as a fifth grader when my son tried out for the Barnstormers, is supposed to be the best of Fran's three boys

Luckily, Jack won't be at the #1 position. He's a good kid actually. He's prob going to be pretty good. I've seen him play live. He's not selfish and passes the ball when open. Being the tallest on the floor, he also identifies to set picks on a smaller opposing player to create a roll to the hoop. He doesn't try to take over games or force things.
 

thedukeofearl

Well-Known Member
Who knows, there are so many factors outside of the players. That was a completely different era. Here are some examples.

1) Full Court Hard Press - No coach, outside of Bob Huggins, does this as a part of their normal gameplan. Iowa ran that thing almost the whole game which was fun as hell to watch. Even Bob Huggins doesn't do it as much. The players have evolved over time and even the BIG guys can handle the ball pretty well, some even bringing it up on occasion. The full court press is really giving a team a fast break attempt anymore. So the question is, if that would be an effective part of the game today or a risk/deficiency?
2) Player Evolution - As mentioned above, the players have evolved so much over this time. I think the 3 pt line started around the 1983 season. This was still in the infancy of that game changing advent in b-ball. At that time, teams might have one or two 3 pt sharp shooters on the team and a player shooting 30% 3's was looked at as a sharp shooter. Over time, all kids now have grown up shooting 3's including the 4's and 5's on the floor. This was never like that in the early days. If you watch youth travel teams now and kid's warming up, all they do is shoot 3's. Hell, in my boys' 9th grade game the other night, they had a teammate go like 5 for 5 for 3's that game. The game has changed which completely changed the offensive philosophy. The offensive philosophy has changed as in the 80's it was an inside to out game with a true motion offense. Two guys were on the block with 3 guards. The game has evolved now to a out to in game, meaning often times a 4 out 1 in spread offense to sometimes a 5 out spread (small-ball) offense. The outside game has opened it up and is completely different. Again, teams can do this because the #3, #4 and sometimes the #5 (Garzas) can shoot 21ft out. Now it's a read and react and cutting spread offense compared to the motion offense in the 80's. Complete 180 degree change in philosophy.
3) Officiating - Now add into the mix that the game is called/officiated completely different than in the 1980's. Would that style and would Iowa's players be as effective playing in today's game the way it is officiated? Today there is no hand checking, no bumping, no bodying somebody up. Tick tack fouls called. It was a man's game back in the day and the BIG 10 was a bruising league.

There are other factors to but you get my point. It's so hard to compare players and teams in different eras. But, I'd sure like to see what they could do as those teams were so damn fun to watch. That style was terrific. I'd just worry if they played that style today, all the players would be fouled out in 25 minutes.


Bob Huggins is apparently the only coach to employ the Full Court Hard Press now

I do remember Nolan Richardson's 40 Minutes of Hell at Arkansas

That was a horror to play against. Dr Tom's last victory at Iowa was against
Nolan Richardson and his 40 Minutes of Hell Defense in the NCAA Tournament

We won by 10 points and played Connecticut in the Sweet Sixteen and lost by 10

:cool:
 

Northside Hawk

Well-Known Member
Bob Huggins is apparently the only coach to employ the Full Court Hard Press now

I do remember Nolan Richardson's 40 Minutes of Hell at Arkansas

That was a horror to play against. Dr Tom's last victory at Iowa was against
Nolan Richardson and his 40 Minutes of Hell Defense in the NCAA Tournament

We won by 10 points and played Connecticut in the Sweet Sixteen and lost by 10

:cool:
Yes rewind to about 1986-1992.

You had Arkansas' 40 minutes of hell
UNLV's high octane attack
Iowa’s 94 feet of denial
Cleveland State's Run-n-Stun
Oklahoma's full throttle attack
Loyola Marymount's "seven seconds of shot clock" offense
Tulane's five man posse platoons
East Tennessee State was a tournament tournament terror (who would have knocked us out if not for Troy Skinner's career game)

What I think was happening is the decline of the baby boom population, and the period before European players came over, led to a lot of unathletic bigs that teams were trying to force into the lineup. After a period between Lew Alcindor and Patrick Ewing where legit bigs dominated the game, there was a dearth at the center until Shaq came along. (Remember when teams tried to make players out of Uwe Blab,, Chuck Nevitt, Jens Kujawa, Tom Greis and Shawn Bradley?) Teams that stopped recruiting those types of players early and instesd loaded their rosters with athletic players in the 6'5-6'8 range were a step ahead of the curve.

The full time press is just about dead at the D 1 level because good guards will destroy it. I don't even think Bruce Pearl presses that much anymore and he learned it from Dr Tom and Kevin Mackey.
 

uihawk82

Well-Known Member
That's been brought up before and now youngest son Jack is on the horizon. It's the perfect fodder for the competition to use against us.

That said Jack, who I first met as a fifth grader when my son tried out for the Barnstormers, is supposed to be the best of Fran's three boys

Well if Connor could be just an above avg shooter he would be really good. His dribbling has improved a lot since his first year, really good defender and hustle guy, but when teams sag off of him at the 3 pt line then he cant drive and they dare him to shoot. That is a downer to the flow of the offense
 

MelroseHawkins

Well-Known Member
Bob Huggins is apparently the only coach to employ the Full Court Hard Press now

I do remember Nolan Richardson's 40 Minutes of Hell at Arkansas

That was a horror to play against. Dr Tom's last victory at Iowa was against
Nolan Richardson and his 40 Minutes of Hell Defense in the NCAA Tournament

We won by 10 points and played Connecticut in the Sweet Sixteen and lost by 10

:cool:

I remember Richardson at Arkansas and the 40 minutes of hell. That was in the 80's as well or maybe early 90's.
 

Northside Hawk

Well-Known Member
Well if Connor could be just an above avg shooter he would be really good. His dribbling has improved a lot since his first year, really good defender and hustle guy, but when teams sag off of him at the 3 pt line then he cant drive and they dare him to shoot. That is a downer to the flow of the offense
It's sad to see players devolve as they get older. Cordell Pemsl was an example of that as well, Melsahn Basabe, Dom Uhl, possibly JBo.

That was my favorite attribute of Dr. Tom. Many of his players steadily improved over time and were playing the best ball of their careers at the end of their senior years. Bill Jones, Les Jepsen, James Moses, Wade Lookingbill, James Winters, Jim Bartles Russ Millard, and Ryan Bowen all come to mind.

Of the many tragedies of the Chris Street fatality a less significant o e was we were robbed of seeing his senior season. He and Russ Millard would have been towers of terror, and it would have allowed Jess Settles to ease in and perhaps be less taxing on his back.
 

Northside Hawk

Well-Known Member
I remember Richardson at Arkansas and the 40 minutes of hell. That was in the 80's as well or maybe early 90's.
They had an epic game with Texas in the 1990 regional final when both teams still played in the old Southwest Conference.

There were some greyhounds on the floor that day. It was similar to 1987 Indiana-UNLV or 1989 Illinois-Michigan
 

HaydenHawk56

Well-Known Member
Fran is an average recruiter at best, probably because he is, by all accounts, squeaky clean. You don't land the type of talent GR landed without getting into the mud at least a little.

Fran is an above average Xs and Os guy, but with a couple blind spots. He rests his talent too long (especially in the first half), his bench is usually too long, and his refusal to play a star with 2 fouls in the first half is pure stubborn rigidity. Beyond those issues, he calls a good game, draws up plays wells, and generally pushes the right buttons. Certainly better than GR.

Fran is an excellent developer of talent. Well above average and well above GR.

Fran sees talent before his peers. This might be his greatest skill as a coach. He can project what a 16 year old kid will become, not what he is.
His half court defense sucks though......not the concept of Zone and Man (I like that he runs both) but how each are taught. Again, recruiting also has something to do with this and lack of speed and overall athletic talent to guard top talent.
 

1977Hawkeye

Well-Known Member
That OU team that year was really good and werent they the ones who were upset a year or so later by Kansas and Manning?? So no surprise that was a close game that Gamble hit that shot in.

The worst part was having the huge lead on UNLV and the hawks couldnt get the win to go to the final four. Dr. Tom would have been one of Iowa's best Bball coaches if that happened and he may have got a few more big time recruits later on.

Yeah, OU lost to Kansas in the '88 title game. I'm also pretty sure they were a 1 seed in both 1988 and 1989. That '87 Oklahoma team was salty and quite a bit more talented IMO than your typical 6 seed. They lost 6 games that year by a total of 11 points.. That team might have been coming into its own by the time we played them.

Iowa's second round game - as I've mentioned, those UTEP teams were pretty dangerous under Don Haskins (they upset 1-seed Kansas in the 2nd round a few years later). The alternative was facing Lute's Arizona team for a 2nd time that season on their home court if UTEP hadn't gotten past them. Thanks but no thanks. Arizona was a 1 seed the next year. Then UNLV, who was #1 most of the year. It was not an easy path through that West bracket in 1987.
 

Northside Hawk

Well-Known Member
Yeah, OU lost to Kansas in the '88 title game. I'm also pretty sure they were a 1 seed in both 1988 and 1989. That '87 Oklahoma team was salty and quite a bit more talented IMO than your typical 6 seed. They lost 6 games that year by a total of 11 points.. That team might have been coming into its own by the time we played them.

Iowa's second round game - as I've mentioned, those UTEP teams were pretty dangerous under Don Haskins (they upset 1-seed Kansas in the 2nd round a few years later). The alternative was facing Lute's Arizona team for a 2nd time that season on their home court if UTEP hadn't gotten past them. Thanks but no thanks. Arizona was a 1 seed the next year. Then UNLV, who was #1 most of the year. It was not an easy path through that West bracket in 1987.
I've probably written forty posts about the 1987 West region. Frickin loaded. UNLV was probably the best overall team in the nation that year. If they play Indiana in a seven game series they win in six. Oklahoma, who beat UNLV in the regular season that year, and UTEP were crIminally underseeded as six and seven respectively (they were among the best fifteen teams in the country). Pitt could knock anyone out on a given night with their top end talent. UCLA was in that region. Wyoming, with the unforgettable Fennis Dembo, upset UCLA before the Bruins could think about playing UNLV. And of course an Iowa team that ranked up their with its 1970 or 1980 teams.

What saved Iowa against UTEP was Iowa had a cakewalk in its first round game with Santa Clara and UTEP had four playyers foul out and had to go OT to oust Arizona. UTEP was up seven against Iowa with eight minutes to go, but was out of gas, in foul trouble, and had to mix in some zone with their vaunted man to man. Iowa outscored them by twelve the rest of the way until Tim Hardaway hit a meaningless three at the buzzer.
 

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