Huge Choke

[sportstalent]

Ok, then take those away. Still pretty good results.

So they have two final fours and one National Championship...that I don't think equals historical greatness...Izzo did more than that in a 10 year period at MSU. Doesn't Iowa have 2 final four appearances, but no NC, I don't know of anyone calling Iowa a historically great program.

 

[sportstalent]

Maybe the lack of coaching has something to do with it but that just supports my original point: MI is a chronic underachiever in BB. Today was just a typical example. Their administration obviously spends the money on FB, not BB. Steve Alford's classic example of a FB school.

BTW, my condolences on your wife's choice in teams. It must be hell around your house for you during FB season.

Take a trip to the new Crisler Center and I think you will change your mind.

I don't see them as a chronic underachiever in basketball, but I see a lot of untapped opportunity, if that makes them an underachiever, fine, but yesterday's game had nothing to do with that mantra. Simple execution.

Steve Alford doesn't belong in this discussion, it isn't like he went to a Power Six conference after he left Iowa, he was going to be sent packing and took the best opportunity he had. Good move for him and put to bed a time in Iowa basketball I like to forget.

 

[UncleHawk]

I'm not sure why everyone is so down on Michigan. Sure, they missed FTs at the end of the game, and are kind of flaky at times, but consider this:

Official Men's Basketball Roster - MGOBLUE.COM - University of Michigan Official Athletic Site

Glenn R III Freshman
Spike A Freshman
Trey Burke Soph
Mitch McGary Freshman
Nik Stauskas Freshman
Horford RS SO


They may not have conquered the world this year, but they are arguably as young, if not younger, than Iowa. They will be DAMN good next year.

Everyone keeps proving my point: all the talent that you mention, and they're a 5-seed in the BTT. It's not just the FTs in the IN game, this year, it's historically that way. They always seem to underachieve their talent. BTW, if it's gotten there by cheating (a la Fab 5), it does count- it's worse. Sportstalent is trying to tell me it's coaching over the years. All I know is that if IA somehow got the same # of 4-5* players on their team as on MI, I'd pick IA to win every time, and that's where the smart $ is going too.

 

[sportstalent]

Everyone keeps proving my point: all the talent that you mention, and they're a 5-seed in the BTT. It's not just the FTs in the IN game, this year, it's historically that way. They always seem to underachieve their talent. BTW, if it's gotten there by cheating (a la Fab 5), it does count- it's worse. Sportstalent is trying to tell me it's coaching over the years. All I know is that if IA somehow got the same # of 4-5* players on their team as on MI, I'd pick IA to win every time, and that's where the smart $ is going too.

This year they are the youngest team in D1 basketball. They also gave up a late three to Wisconsin from around 45-ft. They missed 3-FT's down the stretch of a game yesterday. Those fall and they don't give up the 45 footer, they win the BT outright, not sure how that is underachieving.

Coaching does contribute to underachievement, Raveling proved that, he could assemble talent, but well coaching was another story. I don't know why you think that talent is the only thing a program needs to be successful. You can look at the Fab 5 as failures, but getting to the point they did isn't easy or everyone would do it.

Ellerbee was a terrible coach and he cheated to get those guys as well, Michigan should be known more for scandals to stockpile talent than being underachievers.

Amaker was a solid coach with not a lot of talent.

Your point saying that they are underachieving has no basis. You say oh they put all their money in FB, so how is that the BB program's fault? You also have to have coaches that accept the role that their program fills in the pecking order. FB rules at Michigan, but David Brandon is changing that thought now, look no further than the Crisler Center, take a trip and be amazed, that is all I can say.

Honestly answer this question: What coach have they had that you can say has been truly a great coach, or even a better than average coach?

 

[UncleHawk]

This year they are the youngest team in D1 basketball. They also gave up a late three to Wisconsin from around 45-ft. They missed 3-FT's down the stretch of a game yesterday. Those fall and they don't give up the 45 footer, they win the BT outright, not sure how that is underachieving.

Coaching does contribute to underachievement, Raveling proved that, he could assemble talent, but well coaching was another story. I don't know why you think that talent is the only thing a program needs to be successful. You can look at the Fab 5 as failures, but getting to the point they did isn't easy or everyone would do it.

Ellerbee was a terrible coach and he cheated to get those guys as well, Michigan should be known more for scandals to stockpile talent than being underachievers.

Amaker was a solid coach with not a lot of talent.

Your point saying that they are underachieving has no basis. You say oh they put all their money in FB, so how is that the BB program's fault? You also have to have coaches that accept the role that their program fills in the pecking order. FB rules at Michigan, but David Brandon is changing that thought now, look no further than the Crisler Center, take a trip and be amazed, that is all I can say.

Honestly answer this question: What coach have they had that you can say has been truly a great coach, or even a better than average coach?

Not trying to 'blame' MI's BB program, just saying that's the way it is: historically, they underachieve. Iowa historically overachieves. Maybe coaching has something to do with it as you keep saying. Don't think MI has had a lot of above average coaches. To prove my point, I ask you a question: If IA had the same number of 4-5* players as MI, and you had to lay money on a winner at a neutral site, who would it be? Make sure you answer without your wife looking over your shoulder.

 

[sportstalent]

Not trying to 'blame' MI's BB program, just saying that's the way it is: historically, they underachieve. Iowa historically overachieves. Maybe coaching has something to do with it as you keep saying. Don't think MI has had a lot of above average coaches. To prove my point, I ask you a question: If IA had the same number of 4-5* players as MI, and you had to lay money on a winner at a neutral site, who would it be? Make sure you answer without your wife looking over your shoulder.

I would give Iowa the edge hands down because of coaching and believe my my wife would agree, she and I have this conversation all the time about Michigan and their history.

The issue I have though, is when they have stockpiled talent, other than when Freider was there, it was because of cheating. The failures of the program have been more coaching related and then some of the improprieties that they have allowed their coaches to put them in.

Freider is probably the best coach they have had and followed by Belien, now think about that.

I guess our definition of overachievers and underachievers are a slight bit different.

Seriously though, think about it outside of their National Championship team when have they had a lot of talent when they didn't cheat. Back when they had Rudy T?

 

[ThunderHawk]

There's nothing worse in basketball fandom than being a fan of a good team that can't make FTs to close out games. See: Memphis Tigers. Welcome to hell, Mulvarines.

 

[blubberhawk]

Not trying to 'blame' MI's BB program, just saying that's the way it is: historically, they underachieve. Iowa historically overachieves. Maybe coaching has something to do with it as you keep saying. Don't think MI has had a lot of above average coaches. To prove my point, I ask you a question: If IA had the same number of 4-5* players as MI, and you had to lay money on a winner at a neutral site, who would it be? Make sure you answer without your wife looking over your shoulder.

Iowa historically "over-achieves"? If that is the case, then there have been some mighty low expectations for our program. Iowa hasn't achieved squat in Basketball since Mr. Davis's first season.

I just can't believe there are any Iowa fans dumb enough to be critical of programs that have had far more success than Iowa. My God, we have enough troubles of our own.

 

[sportstalent]

Iowa historically "over-achieves"? If that is the case, then there have been some mighty low expectations for our program. Iowa hasn't achieved squat in Basketball since Mr. Davis's first season.

I just can't believe there are any Iowa fans dumb enough to be critical of programs that have had far more success than Iowa. My God, we have enough troubles of our own.

Now that is funny, in a "ha ha" kind of way.

 

[uihawk82]

Iowa historically "over-achieves"? If that is the case, then there have been some mighty low expectations for our program. Iowa hasn't achieved squat in Basketball since Mr. Davis's first season.

I just can't believe there are any Iowa fans dumb enough to be critical of programs that have had far more success than Iowa. My God, we have enough troubles of our own.

I agree, Iowa is a well known name in college basketball and has been been for 60 years yet Michigan has made more splash.

Michigan in final 4 in 1963-4 with cassie russell, played for the championship against bob knight when Orr was at Michigan, won it in the late 80's and played for title in early 90s. That is more recent success than Iowa.

I would agree that Iowa has underachieved for their overall pedigree. There was a bad coaching hire after Ralph Miller left and it took Lute 5 years to build it back up. Lickliter hurt and now I think Fran could stay here a long time if he keeps succeeding.