I'm curious how the strength of schedule compares. Not that this would make a huge difference in the perception of the overall win / loss between the two. I'm tempted to say Fry worked against a stronger SOS. But, I remember that one year under Fry with that brutal schedule, and then another year with Miami on the schedule, and beyond that I'm not sure if he tried to schedule at least one "stronger" team during the non conference (like the AZ, AZ State, Pitt under Ferentz).
How would we view Fry in the internet-era?
- Thread starter CP87
- Start date
This is correct. 3 OOC games, Iowa State every year (who let's not forget was horrible until the end of his run) and than for the most part BCS conference schools.
Only later did we start playing Northern Illinois, Drake, Tulsa, UTEP, etc.
The only thing I will add is the 97 season on message boards would have been much worse than anything I have seen to date, by far the most disappointed I have ever been after an Iowa football season, (last year would be second)
Minus the third down draws, how is this more conservative? Kicking on long third downs to catch defenses off guard isn't really conservative, it's good strategy. At least I would appreciate it more than the typical KF run on third and long followed by the traditional 4th down punt. You probably have a better outcome without a returner and catching them offguard.
How is throwing out of your endzone conservative?
Fry wasn't afraid to hang 50-60 points on teams. The only time we seem to route teams anymore is the pre-Big Ten creampuffs.
Look at what Fry did during the 80's. 6/10 years in the top 25. (One of those unranked years was 8-4 with a bowl win). He defined consistency in that decade. He started to slow down in the mid to late 90's and it was probably time for him to go when he did.
KF - only 2 top 25's in the last 7 (5/13 total)
Is KF a bad coach? - absolutely not. He does a solid job recruiting and developing players. The problem I have is when we grossly underperform to bad teams on a regular basis.
Losing record to ISU
2 straight losses to a terrible Minnesota
3 straight losses to Northwestern
A few losses to and close calls to Indiana
fortcollinshawk
Member
Convenient to take Fry's best era and compare it to Ferentz's last few years which still have included an Orange Bowl victory and two other good bowl wins.
History has a way of easing the pain of losses but continues to allow the glow of great victories to shine on. I remember watching the OSU at the Shoe in 1985 and I vividly remember the clock ticking down and realizing that our realistic shot of a national championship was ending. That was a down day. I remember Iowa gaffing the game at Tulsa later which probably cost us a Citrus Bowl bid that year.
There were plenty of bleek days for both of them, the only thing is that these seem more obvious in the short term.
Fry probably did a little better against "inferior" competition but seemed to not fare as well against teams that were more "superior" competition.
I would argue the flip side of that is true for Ferentz. We always seem to have a fighting chance in every game
History will shine brightly on both of these coaches. If Ferentz isn't the second best coach at Iowa in history then he is certainly no lower than 3rd. Both have provided us with many proud moments and games to cherish.
History has a way of easing the pain of losses but continues to allow the glow of great victories to shine on. I remember watching the OSU at the Shoe in 1985 and I vividly remember the clock ticking down and realizing that our realistic shot of a national championship was ending. That was a down day. I remember Iowa gaffing the game at Tulsa later which probably cost us a Citrus Bowl bid that year.
There were plenty of bleek days for both of them, the only thing is that these seem more obvious in the short term.
Fry probably did a little better against "inferior" competition but seemed to not fare as well against teams that were more "superior" competition.
I would argue the flip side of that is true for Ferentz. We always seem to have a fighting chance in every game
History will shine brightly on both of these coaches. If Ferentz isn't the second best coach at Iowa in history then he is certainly no lower than 3rd. Both have provided us with many proud moments and games to cherish.
ssckelley
Well-Known Member
Hayden Fry walked on water through the 80's if the internet message boards existed back then they would have blown up after the 1985 Rose Bowl but it would have been directed at Ronnie Harmon. The only year he would have taken some heat would have been in 1988 when Iowa was preseason Big Ten champs, ranked 9th, and some considered Chuck Hartlieb a Heisman candidate. After the 1989 season people started to grumble but in 1990 he had Iowa back in the Rose Bowl.
The mid 90's fans would have crucified Fry as by that time most of the fan base had forgotten about the 70s. The younger fans were calling for a coaching change in 93 and 94 while the older fans were loyal to Fry and ultimately it was Bump Elliott who stuck with him. In 1995 it got pretty nasty when Iowa was 5-4 coming off a 4 game losing streak but Hayden rallied the troops and got Iowa to the Sun Bowl where they upset 20th ranked Washington. In 1997 they started saying Hayden was to old he could not recruit anymore and in 1998 Hayden retired. If these message boards existed in the 90's Hayden would have taken a beating along with the hiring of Kirk Ferentz. We all thought Bob Stoops was going to be our next coach and we were in shock when KF was hired. Then when he came out and lost 18 of his first 20 games this place would have blown up.
But opinions/expectations were no different back in Hayden Fry's day than they are today. Except back then they were discussed in coffee shops and not on Internet message boards.
The mid 90's fans would have crucified Fry as by that time most of the fan base had forgotten about the 70s. The younger fans were calling for a coaching change in 93 and 94 while the older fans were loyal to Fry and ultimately it was Bump Elliott who stuck with him. In 1995 it got pretty nasty when Iowa was 5-4 coming off a 4 game losing streak but Hayden rallied the troops and got Iowa to the Sun Bowl where they upset 20th ranked Washington. In 1997 they started saying Hayden was to old he could not recruit anymore and in 1998 Hayden retired. If these message boards existed in the 90's Hayden would have taken a beating along with the hiring of Kirk Ferentz. We all thought Bob Stoops was going to be our next coach and we were in shock when KF was hired. Then when he came out and lost 18 of his first 20 games this place would have blown up.
But opinions/expectations were no different back in Hayden Fry's day than they are today. Except back then they were discussed in coffee shops and not on Internet message boards.
GhostofBTT
Banned
It is kind of fascinating to go back and look at the records of the old Fry teams and just compare the landscape of the sport then and now.
For instance, in 1995, Iowa went a 7-4 regular season, the best team the beat was a 6-5-1 MSU squad, and they lost four games by double digit margins.
Imagine if we had a season like that today?
For instance, in 1995, Iowa went a 7-4 regular season, the best team the beat was a 6-5-1 MSU squad, and they lost four games by double digit margins.
Imagine if we had a season like that today?
olivecourt
Well-Known Member
There's nothing college football fans love more than getting ahead of themselves. I can't tell you how many times I've heard that we are destined for an LSU-Bama rematch in the national title game. It's as if these last few chaotic weeks haven't even happened. The reality is, you never, ever know what's going to happen on the field. I know that Iowa fans want to say that our team is special in that regard, but look around the country. Inexplicable games on the level of Iowa losing to Minnesota, while inexcusable, are not uncommon.
You just can't predict what's going to happen from week to week. In the Fry era, the bottom teams truly were terrible and the top 5-6 teams were often in a different world than everyone else-- b/c of scholarship levels, less TV coverage, etc-- and maybe things were a bit more predictable. That is not to take anything away from the incredible things that Hayden accomplished, it is just to say that it is no longer the reality of college football in 2011.
Also, good post. A little... Windex for the big man!
imported_ankle23
Well-Known Member
if you are really going to compare Fry to Ferentz on top 25 finishes - how many times did Fry finish in the top ten? Ferentz has done it 4 times. how many bcs bowls did Fry win? The terrible teams that you cite aren't terrible like they were back in Fry's era. You call NW a terrible team. that is terrible. ISU just beat OSU, they are terrible?
Let me ask you this: how many games did you sit thru in 1993, 1994, etc? Those were BAD teams. Ferentz' teams would wipe them up. In fact, most of Fry's teams post-Bill Snider (sp on last name) i.e. the last 10 years of Fry's era weren't that good.
Quick kicking on 3rd down - just think of Ferentz put that in his back of tricks. not conservative? ok.
I was making light of the people biatching about Vandy throwing out of the endzone last game. People biatch about Ferentz being too conservative, and they biatch about him throwing from his own end zone. I don't know if people are just flat out dumb or flat out stupid. i'm sure it's one or the other.
let's take it to the next level!!! fire 'em all!
ssckelley
Well-Known Member
You are right. Hayden Fry pretty much dominated the teams Iowa was supposed to beat. He struggled against the Big 2 Michigan and Ohio State along with Illinois at times. KF has been the opposite Iowa has struggled against teams they should easily beat but he has done quite well against Penn State and Michigan.
Except it isn't accurate... One example...we didn't tie Indiana in 1991. We lost to Michigan and tied BYU in a bowl game.
It is convenient. Hayden was a beast during the 80's. He defined consistentcy and he also took a program that was dead for over a decade and brought it back. His greatness might be exaggerated a little because of that, but his consistency during that decade was an accomplishment in itself. KF had a great three year run from 2002-2004 and a great year in 2010. If we looked at his first five years Ferentz was very good. Over the course of his career thus far it looks more like a great three year run + 1 more great year than anything else. He grossly underperformed with some very talented teams. Last year we lead the NCAA with players who made NFL teams and we lost several games including a terrible Gopher team.
People who cite KF and the BCS Bowls need to realize that Fry didn't have that opportunity when he coached in the 80's-'91. In 1991 we had a 10-1-1 team that went to the Holiday Bowl (tied in the bowl game). Now it is unfair to compare KF going to a BCS bowl with 2 losses to Fry not going to the BCS with 1 loss at the time.
Fry also had an 8-4 team ('82)that was 6-2 in the Big Ten, won its bowl and didn't finish ranked. Sounds a lot like KF's 2009 team that was 9-4/5-3 and finished 20.
KF is a decent coach. He was a little overrated after his 2002-04 run which is why the media has cooled on him since. I think everyone expected he might be able to do that consistently. I think in reality he is a guy who will average 7-8 wins a year and every 3-5 years give you a good year contending in the Big 10.
ssckelley
Well-Known Member
But keep in mind under the old Big Ten rules Iowa would have went to the Rose Bowl in 2006 as they used to have a quirky rule in a tie the team that has not been to a Rose Bowl the longest got to go. Also back in the day the Holiday Bowl was a damn good bowl to go to, I would say equivalent to the Cap One today. You were playing the WAC champion in the Holiday Bowl back when the WAC was a pretty good conference. But you are right if the BCS existed back then the 1991 team would have went to a BCS Bowl.
imported_ankle23
Well-Known Member
1982 Fry team lost to a terrible team called ISU and also Purdon't. can not be good. can not be ranked when you lose to horrible teams. you know what i mean?
The 10-1-1 Iowa team - not all 1 loss teams go to a BCS bowl only 8 slots. 11 games have been played this year, and there are 8 teams with 0 or 1 loss.
you want to look at some grossly under performing teams, dial up some of Fry's teams. 1997 ring a bell? 1988 - preseason #1. 1992 - senior laden team with big expectations.
regarding BCS bowls, i am simply referring to Rose, Orange, Sugar, Fiesta. All those bowls existed during Fry's time and KF's time. Fry didn't have the opportunity from '80 to '91? that is when he went and lost 3 bcs bowls (rose). I don't see how you can say that KF has had more opportunities to go to BCS bowls than did Fry. how so?
Fry had one advantage to go to those bowls that Ferentz does not have - like when all else is equal, which team hasn't been there most recent. Fry benefited from that at least once - one was the 1981 team that went to the Rose Bowl that year and that LOST that year to Minnesota and *gasp* ISU. The other was the 1990 team - that *gasp* lost to Minnesota that year and shared a 4 way b10 championship tie with michigan, msu, illinois.
look, Fry was a great thing for Iowa. I am a big fan. But i'm not a big fan of this KF bashing and revisionist history regarding Fry.
The 10-1-1 Iowa team - not all 1 loss teams go to a BCS bowl only 8 slots. 11 games have been played this year, and there are 8 teams with 0 or 1 loss.
you want to look at some grossly under performing teams, dial up some of Fry's teams. 1997 ring a bell? 1988 - preseason #1. 1992 - senior laden team with big expectations.
regarding BCS bowls, i am simply referring to Rose, Orange, Sugar, Fiesta. All those bowls existed during Fry's time and KF's time. Fry didn't have the opportunity from '80 to '91? that is when he went and lost 3 bcs bowls (rose). I don't see how you can say that KF has had more opportunities to go to BCS bowls than did Fry. how so?
Fry had one advantage to go to those bowls that Ferentz does not have - like when all else is equal, which team hasn't been there most recent. Fry benefited from that at least once - one was the 1981 team that went to the Rose Bowl that year and that LOST that year to Minnesota and *gasp* ISU. The other was the 1990 team - that *gasp* lost to Minnesota that year and shared a 4 way b10 championship tie with michigan, msu, illinois.
look, Fry was a great thing for Iowa. I am a big fan. But i'm not a big fan of this KF bashing and revisionist history regarding Fry.
ColoradoHAWKEYE
Well-Known Member
back then because of conference tie ins, the Big Ten "usually" didn't get to participate in those top (BCS type) bowls. Mostly only the Rose Bowl. Also, there was less than half the bowl games then from what there are today.
ssckelley
Well-Known Member
You are right, those bowls were still pretty big back then and they did not have conference affiliations. Back then these bowls scrambled to get the best matchups/fan base for their bowls. Pretty much only 3 bowls Rose, Sugar, and Cotton had conference ties the rest took whoever they wanted.
Even based on todays rules the Big Ten would have sent Iowa to the Rose Bowl in 1981. Iowa did not play Ohio State that year but was ranked higher in the polls. I think the BCS standings is still a tie breaker. In 1990 Iowa finished in a tie with Michigan, Illinois, and MSU and defeated all of them head to head so even in todays rules they would have went to the Rose Bowl. But the only reason why they finished in a tie was because they got upset at Minnesota in the last game of the year.
Blasted wikipedia. They had the score differential as a win, but they listed it as a loss. Good catch, I will make the edit.
ssckelley
Well-Known Member
This site is way better than wiki: College Football Statistics & History | College Football at Sports-Reference.com
[FONT="]Fry was really good in the 80's, those 6/10 seasons ranked in the top 25 were also consecutive. Very impressive. However, he lost to a bad Minnesota team 3 times in that decade. In the span from '89-'92, which certainly wasn't Fry's best, they lost to Minnesota 3 out of 4. During his tenure he also lost to an Illinois team that finished with a worse record than the Hawks 4 times.
Ferentz during the '00's was similar to Fry during the '80's. He finished in the top 25 5 times out of 10, although there is a sixth season when the Hawks were in the top 25 in at least one of the major polls. So not quite as good, but close.
For those that are curious, below are the comparisons of the 2 coaches by opponent (courtesy of College Football Data Warehouse). I have omitted the first 2 and last 2 years from Fry's tenure, and the first 2 from Ferentz's tenure. I have also included the opponent overall winning percentage during those time-spans in parentheses:
Iowa State: Fry 14-2 (36.6%), Ferentz 6-5 (44.4%)
Illinois: Fry 7-7 (53.6%), Ferentz 5-1 (39.7%)
Indiana: Fry 9-3 (45.3%), Ferentz 7-2 (39.7%)
Michigan: Fry 4-9 (74.5%), Ferentz 5-4 (64.2%)
Michigan State: Fry 9-4 (47.2%), Ferentz 5-4 (52.6%)
Minnesota: Fry 11-5 (37.6%), Ferentz 8-3 (47.8%)
Northwestern: Fry 14-2 (27.8%), Ferentz 4-5 (50.4%)
Ohio State: Fry 3-8 (72.4%), Ferentz 1-5 (79.7%)
Penn State: Fry 2-4 (77.6%), Ferentz 7-2 (61.8%)
Purdue: Fry 11-2 (37.3%), Ferentz 5-3 (52.2%)
Wisconsin: Fry 13-0 (45.9%), Ferentz 6-4 (68.3%)
Obvious differences between the two eras, and a few interesting tidbits:[/FONT]
Ferentz during the '00's was similar to Fry during the '80's. He finished in the top 25 5 times out of 10, although there is a sixth season when the Hawks were in the top 25 in at least one of the major polls. So not quite as good, but close.
For those that are curious, below are the comparisons of the 2 coaches by opponent (courtesy of College Football Data Warehouse). I have omitted the first 2 and last 2 years from Fry's tenure, and the first 2 from Ferentz's tenure. I have also included the opponent overall winning percentage during those time-spans in parentheses:
Iowa State: Fry 14-2 (36.6%), Ferentz 6-5 (44.4%)
Illinois: Fry 7-7 (53.6%), Ferentz 5-1 (39.7%)
Indiana: Fry 9-3 (45.3%), Ferentz 7-2 (39.7%)
Michigan: Fry 4-9 (74.5%), Ferentz 5-4 (64.2%)
Michigan State: Fry 9-4 (47.2%), Ferentz 5-4 (52.6%)
Minnesota: Fry 11-5 (37.6%), Ferentz 8-3 (47.8%)
Northwestern: Fry 14-2 (27.8%), Ferentz 4-5 (50.4%)
Ohio State: Fry 3-8 (72.4%), Ferentz 1-5 (79.7%)
Penn State: Fry 2-4 (77.6%), Ferentz 7-2 (61.8%)
Purdue: Fry 11-2 (37.3%), Ferentz 5-3 (52.2%)
Wisconsin: Fry 13-0 (45.9%), Ferentz 6-4 (68.3%)
Obvious differences between the two eras, and a few interesting tidbits:[/FONT]
- [FONT="]Minnesota, NW, Purdue, and Wisconsin have been much better (> 10%) during the Ferentz era[/FONT]
- [FONT="]Iowa State, MSU, and OSU were a little better during the Ferentz era[/FONT]
- [FONT="]Illinois, Michigan, and Penn State were much better during the Fry era (of course, Fry only played PSU 6 times)[/FONT]
- [FONT="]Indiana was a little better during the Fry era[/FONT]
- [FONT="]The approximate conference opponent winning percentage during the Fry era was 47.8% without Penn State factored in, 48.7% with Penn State factored in for 6 years
[/FONT] - [FONT="]The approximate conference winning percentage during the Ferentz era has been 54.6%[/FONT]
- [FONT="]Ferentz has a better win % vs. Minnesota than Fry, and he has faced a better Minnesota team during his tenure (although last year’s Minnesota team was awful, making that loss unsightly)[/FONT]
- [FONT="]Fry owned Wisconsin. Wisconsin was really bad until Alvarez got there in 1990, but even after that point Fry owned them. Iowa missed Wisconsin on their schedule during Wisky’s 1993 Rose Bowl season.[/FONT]
- [FONT="]Fry also really stomped on Iowa State during his tenure. ISU was a worse team at this time, but his dominance over this opponent is still impressive.[/FONT]
- [FONT="]Ferentz only has a losing record against Ohio State and NW. Wisconsin also has a losing record against NW during the Ferentz tenure.[/FONT]
- [FONT="]Fry only had losing records against Michigan, Ohio State, and Penn State (small sample size for PSU); he was tied in his series vs. Illinois. It kind of seems like Illinois was to Fry what NW has been to Ferentz. As mentioned above, Fry lost 4 games to fairly bad Illinois teams during his tenure.[/FONT]
- [FONT="]No team fluctuates between god-awful and good like Illinois. There are seasons when they are hide-your-eyes bad, but they have their share of conference titles as well (2 during Fry era, 1 during Ferentz era).[/FONT]
- [FONT="]During this time span, Fry’s average point differential was +6.5 points/game (average score 26.3-19.8). Ferentz’s point differential was +8.1 points/game (average score 26.9-18.8).[/FONT]
- [FONT="]Fry kicked *** for the 80’s, and then was solid but not quite as good during the 90’s. Is Ferentz destined for the same pattern?[/FONT]
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Bigtenchamp
Well-Known Member
How about the fact that Iowa Football had been a joke for 25 years before Hayden Fry arrived.
Regardless of what you think of Ferentz - the Iowa football program that exists today was Fry's doing (GASP guess what Ferentz was his assistants)
How many assistants has Ferentz have that have gone on to be coaches elsewhere...
Let's take a look at Fry's (where they coached or currently coach
Bob Stoops (Oklahoma)
Bret Bielema (Wisconsin)
Dan McCarney (ISU)
Jim Leavitt (South Florida)
Bill Synder (Kansas State)
Chuck Long (Sand Diego State)
Barry Alvarez (Wisconsin)
Ferentz has been very important to this program but trying to downplay what Hayden Fry did is just undeducated when it comes to Iowa football
