How Four, 4-Team Divisions in Big 10 Can Work

trj said:
Maybe this has already been answered, I just skimmed through this thread and only caught part of jon/steve's show this morning.

I understand the pro sports analogy of conferences/divisions, what I still do not understand is how you determine who plays in the title game? The schedules are made at least 2 years in advance.
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Re-read the OP. 2/3 of the way down it explains it.
 
If Iowa, Wisconsin and Minnesota aren't in the same division then I don't think much of the four division concept. I do not consider Illinois a rival. For many years the series was stopped. Illinois' rival is Missouri, period. Nebraska becoming a rivalry doesn't thrill me either.
 
Why can't we just go to two 8 team divisions and ramp up the conference games to 11? Play all other seven teams in your division and play half the other division. Add one more game to the schedule so you play two non-cons and the rest in conference play. There would be enough variety in the conference play that you would just use the other two non-cons to fill with creampuffs for practice.
 
If I were to do it, I would probably do something like this:

A = Nebraska, Iowa, Minnesota, and Wisc
B = Michigan, Michigan State, Purdue, and Indiana
C = Penn State, Rutgers, Maryland, and Syracuse
D = Ohio State, Missouri, Illinois, and Northwestern

Then I would give each team 1 protected rival in each of the other pods (making for a 9-game Big 16(?) season).

This would allow us to keep protected games such as Iowa-Illinois, Nebraska-Missouri, Wisc-Ohio State, Michigan-Ohio State, Michigan-Michigan State, Illinois-Northwestern, Purdue-Indiana, Iowa-Minn, etc...

It also sets up 1 "headliner" in each pod, protecting the Big10's current Big 3 and making for one hell of a competive "A" pod (I absolutely love the "A" pod). I also think that the other pods would be pretty competitive with the possible exception of the "C" pod.

Of course, a 9-game conference season comes with some risk when it comes to bowl eligibility (one less non-con game to pad the win stats with), so we probably won't go there...
 
Hawkfromnorwalk said:
Why can't we just go to two 8 team divisions and ramp up the conference games to 11? Play all other seven teams in your division and play half the other division. Add one more game to the schedule so you play two non-cons and the rest in conference play. There would be enough variety in the conference play that you would just use the other two non-cons to fill with creampuffs for practice.
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I agree with what you are saying, except make it 10 conferences games and 2 non-conferences.
 
Is it possible to have a conference semifinals and finals? Block the last 2 weeks of the season and get rid of this "protected rival nonsense". Outside of Michigan/OSU does it really matter?

Make the divisions this way to protect a couple other rivals:

A: Iowa, Nebraska, Minnesota, Wisconsin
B: Northwestern, Illinois, Purdue, Missouri
C: Ohio State, Michigan, Michigan St, Indiana
D: Penn St, Rutgers, Maryland, Syracuse (or whatever teams)

You play your 3 teams in your division. Then you play 4 teams in another division (A plays C for example but it rotates each year). Then the semifinal round would consist of your division paired up with a completely separate division(based on regular season standings): A1 vs. B1, A2 vs. B2, A3 vs. B3, D4 vs. B4. C1 vs. D1, C2 vs. D2, C3 vs. D3, C4 vs. D4. The winners of the 1's would play in the final.

Obviously the downfall with a semifinal week would be that fans would have trouble traveling to a semifinal and a championship final. So, you could alternate home games within those semifinal games. Ex, Iowa hosted last year and Penn St. didn't, so they get to host.
 
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IAHawkFan said:
If I were to do it, I would probably do something like this:

A = Nebraska, Iowa, Minnesota, and Wisc
B = Michigan, Michigan State, Purdue, and Indiana
C = Penn State, Rutgers, Maryland, and Syracuse
D = Ohio State, Missouri, Illinois, and Northwestern

Then I would give each team 1 protected rival in each of the other pods (making for a 9-game Big 16(?) season).

This would allow us to keep protected games such as Iowa-Illinois, Nebraska-Missouri, Wisc-Ohio State, Michigan-Ohio State, Michigan-Michigan State, Illinois-Northwestern, Purdue-Indiana, Iowa-Minn, etc...

It also sets up 1 "headliner" in each pod, protecting the Big10's current Big 3 and making for one hell of a competive "A" pod (I absolutely love the "A" pod). I also think that the other pods would be pretty competitive with the possible exception of the "C" pod.

Of course, a 9-game conference season comes with some risk when it comes to bowl eligibility (one less non-con game to pad the win stats with), so we probably won't go there...
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NO! Your scenario gives OSU a cake walk through it's pod and anything that benefits OSU is bad :mad:
 
hwkwyld said:
NO! Your scenario gives OSU a cake walk through it's pod and anything that benefits OSU is bad :mad:
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lol - Missouri and Illinois are capable of putting up competitive teams (Zook won't be at Illinois forever ;)). I would think that OSU would get Michigan, Wisc, and Penn State as their protected, so even if their pod is a cake walk, their season shouldn't be...
 
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01Hawk05, I presented something similar last week when the 4 divisions idea was heating up. I think the best way to having a TBD game would be to have locked rotations for home and away (ex: all teams in A&B are home for the final game this year and all teams in C&D are away) and to have a conference schedule bye the week before the TBD game. Either all teams can have the week off (Saturday before Thanksgiving) or teams can schedule a non-conference game for that week. It would mean no conference football that Saturday, but it would allow teams and fans at least 2 weeks to schedule travel. The final conference game would be the Saturday of Thanksgiving Weekend with the semi-final games being 2:30 CT and 7:00 CT to showcase the games. You could even schedule some of the other games for Friday afternoon and evening if you wanted to. The Big Ten Conference Championship game would then by the first Saturday in December.

If the Big Ten went to 9 conference games, then the extra conference game could easily be 1 of 2 options. Let's say A&B and C&D play each other round robin and the TBD games will be between A&C and B&D. The extra conference game could be games between A&D and B&C. These either could be rematches of the previous years TBD game or could be like the NFL does it where the previous year's divisional standings determine opponents (ex: 2009 1st A v. 2009 1st C is the extra game for 2010).
 
CAARHawk has this right. Michigan and Ohio State must be in separate pods. It's the only way if you really think about it. The important thing is that they play each other every year. You really think they are concerned about a potential rematch? (which would be slim odds anyways) If so, then you don't remember 2006 very well. Michigan was ticked they didn't get a rematch for the National Championship game.

Also a pod of Iowa, Nebraska, Minnesota and Wisconsin makes the most sense. Missouri and Illinois can be in a pod with 2 other teams very easily, thus preserving the Iowa-Minny-Wiscy triangle and adding Nebraska which would really offer a chance at some terrific rivalries.
 
Here is the winner, the rivalry games are listed in ()'s. This keeps the pods alligned geographically and keeps all rivalries I know about intact.

It also keeps the protected rivalry games traditional for the most part which I think is important. The only "protected rivals" games on here that are new are the Indiana-Pitt and Pudont-Rutgers games. While those games arent traditional rivalries it makes sense geographically and I think would be intriuging matchups.

It only makes sense for PSU to get lumped in with the new east coast teams because A) they are near the east coast and B) are the relative new kid on the block in the current B10. In the event ND acts like themselves and doesnt join you probably throw Pitt in thier place and substitute Syracuse, MD, or UCONN in thier place.

The B10 isn't going to care that scUM and fOSU are in the same pod and can't meet for the title game. The B10 championship game is going to get massive ratngs and publicity regardless, it doesn't need that matchup to be great.


Iowa (NW), Wisky (Mstate), Minny (Illannoy), Neb (Mizzou)


Illannoy (Minny), Mizzou (Neb), NW (Iowa), MState (Wisky)


fOSU (PSU), scUM (ND), Indiana (Pitt), Purdont (Rutgers)


PSU (fOSU), ND (scUM), Rutgers (Indiana), Pitt (Purdont)
 
JonDMiller said:
Tom Dienhart from Yahoo Sports talked about this two weeks back, saying he had heard this was where the Big Ten was headed…on Wednesday, an item from the Detroit News says two sources told them the same.

My radio co-host Steve Deace and I haven’t been able to wrap our minds around how that would work…how do you play for the title with a title game, which seems a certainty. How do you keep Michigan and Ohio State from playing more than once a year? How do you keep protected rivals?

Randy Dickey from Urbandale called in and said that you have four divisions, four teams each and each year you play an entire division, plus your own. It rotates, so there is no real 8 team division playing each other…it changes year to year, with three games against the teams in your division being the constant, and one protected rival…the other four games will float.

Here is an example that Steve and I came up with on the fly, with divisions labeled alphabetically:

A: Iowa, Nebraska, Missouri and Illinois: Steve and I feel that Nebraska and Missouri will be in the new Big Ten. Missouri and Illinois have been playing in football and basketball for years. These four states are border rivals. Iowa v Nebraska, Iowa vs Missouri and Iowa v Illinois are three incredibly rival opportunities, with the Iowa-Illinois rivalry already there. PROTECTED RIVALS: This may not make sense now, but will as you go through this and you see the other divisions. We made some assumptions here that Rutgers, Maryland and Syracuse will join the league. We feel that 16 is going to happen, and we feel that Missouri and Rutgers are guarantees into the league. We also feel Nebraska will be in there, and we are leaving out Notre Dame. Good luck Irish, and the Big Ten needs to cancel all future games against them, period. Iowa (Rutgers..Steve suggested Maryland, and that Nebraska would be able to pick Rutgers. I vetoed the idea on the air saying Nebraska isn’t coming into the league to get a big voice right away), Nebraska (Maryland), Missouri (Syracuse), Illinois (Northwestern).

B: Michigan, Ohio State, Indiana and Minnesota: You have to have the Wolverines and the Buckeyes in the same division for a simple reason that they will not want to cheapen their rivalry by playing more than once per year. It’s one of the ten best rivalries in the history of American sports, and you are not going to mess with it. Plus, they will want no part of playing the last week of the regular season and having a rematch the next week in a championship game. You also match them up with the two weakest Big Ten football programs from the last 50 years as some sort of compensation. PROTECTED RIVALS: Michigan (Michigan State), Ohio State (Penn State), Indiana (Purdue), Minnesota (Wisconsin).

C: Penn State, Rutgers, Maryland and Syracuse: Penn State gets some regional teams, and you have a strong northeastern block and control New York State. PROTECTED RIVALS: Penn State (Ohio State), Rutgers (Iowa), Maryland (Nebraska), Syracuse (Missouri)

D: Wisconsin, Purdue, Michigan State and Northwestern: Somewhat balanced if you look at the last 20 or so years of the Big Ten. Wisconsin has won three Rose Bowls in that time, Northwestern has won three Big Ten titles. Purdue has been to the Rose Bowl and has made several bowl appearances. Michigan State went to the Rose Bowl in the late 80’s and has had upper division talent with lower division coaching. PROTECTED RIVALS: Wisconsin (Minnesota), Purdue (Indiana), Michigan State (Michigan), Northwestern (Illinois)

Each year, two divisions will pay each other…in a rotation from year to year, like the NFL does. So you play your three divisional teams, plus four from another division, to get to seven games. Then you have your protected rival that can get you to 8 games two out of three years. There will be a year when you play a division that contains your protected rival. In those years, you will be assigned a random opponent from a pool that is in the same boat you are with regards to playing their protected rivals in a division vs division scenario.

Here is what I am talking about: Say Division A is playing Division C this year. Three of the four teams in each division are playing a ‘conference game’ against their protected rival. That means Division B is playing Division D, where you also have three teams playing a ‘conference game’ against their protected rival. In this scenario, all but Penn State and Ohio State are playing a ‘conference game’ against their protected rival that year. That means those 10 teams that are playing their protected rival in a divisional matchup that year would have to play one another. For instance, Iowa could play Michigan since the Hawkeyes are playing Rutgers in a regularly scheduled game, and they are protected rivals, while Michigan is playing Michigan State in a regularly scheduled game.

I think that would equate to playing a wildcard eighth game once every three years, and they would rotate on a home and home basis via computer. So Iowa and Michigan would play one another twice every 12 years. Now, there could be some mathematical issues here that I have not though through, and no one has ever accused me of having a Beautiful Mind, if you catch my drift there. But it seems like it would work and my head is starting to hurt here, so time to move on.

In this scenario, and in most expansion scenarios I have run through, Iowa is giving up a bit of history…no Floyd of Rosedale (the Minnesota-Wisconsin game is the oldest and most-played rivalry in Division I-A football, with 119 editions dating back to 1890), no Iowa vs Wisconsin every year, Iowa is in a division with two new teams and every three years when they would play Penn State’s division it would mean that five of their eight Big Ten opponents would be the expansion opponents.

However, being in the same division with Nebraska and Missouri would ignite new rivalries, and you’d still get to play some original Big Ten teams. Rutgers as a protected rival is about one thing; recruiting that region, which Iowa has done well, and exposure in that market. It makes sense, even though it has no history. Someone is going to have to do that, and there is an upside for Iowa.

You would then take the best records each year from the divisional matchups, and those two teams would play for the conference title. There wouldn’t be two sides that square off each year, it would rotate. So one year, as we have analyzed, A & C would comprise the eight teams on one side of the bracket, where B & D would comprise the eight teams on the other side. The best record produced out of A&C would play the best record produced out of B&D. The next year it would be A&B vs C&D, then A&D vs B&C, then you start over.

The first seven ‘regularly scheduled’ games go first in chronological order, with the protected rivalry games being played on Thanksgiving Weekend, with the Big Ten title game being played on BCS Announcement Weekend.

Of course, we can quibble about Syracuse and Maryland and if it’s different teams then we can reevaluate the protected rivals a bit. But on the whole, I think it can work.

Whether or not you like it, that’s your call. What do you think? Are their holes in the math? Let us know.
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I guess I should have patented this idea last week.
 
CAARHawk said:
Just like any other protected rival?

People need to think outside the box. That is what the league is doing.

What if Iowa was protected rivals with Mizzou and each made it to the Championship game? What if Nebby was protected rivals with PSU and they both made it to the championship game? Would the sky fall in?

If both teams made it to the championship game and one had lost to the other in the regular season, it would just mean there was not really a worthy second option. Let em play again.

I think the biggest issue would be if these teams actually really wanted to play this game each year. It would seem to lessen their chances of making it to the championship game. What if OU and Texas hadn't both been in the Big 12 South for the last decade?
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Exactly!! Everyone here is stuck on the balance of a power rivalry as OSU-UM but if there is a "protected rivalry" then there are 8 games that have a chance to be played again. IMHO why not because those would be the best teams and a rematch may be fun to watch. Remember, it wasn't too long ago that 1/2 the country wanted to see OSU-UM part two in the MNC game.

Plus everyone seems to forget that UM is not winning any division titles for a while or even there was a time that Minny was a national power. Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't ILL get the chance to be pummeled by USC in the Rose bowl recently? Other than OSU, 1/2 the conference has challenged for the league title recently so the likelyhood of rematches are not as probable as many assume. Just my two cents tho () mark the "protected rivalry":

A: Iowa (ILL), Nebby(Mizzou), Whisky(OSU), Minny(Mary)

B: Mizzou (Nebby), ILL(Iowa), Northwestern(Cuse), IU(PU)

C: PU(IU), MSU(Rut), UM(PSU), OSU(Whisky)

D: PSU(UM), Rutg(MSU), Maryland(Minny), Cuse(N'western)

Mizzou-Nebby just makes sense from where they came, OSU-Wisky seem to building something, as does UM and PSU, Iowa keeps it's three main rivalries, PU-IU is a given, the rest were basically a coin flip.

I actually am not completely for this type of rivalry match ups but the majority are in the same division this way. The other possibility is have a rotating protected game. Have one team outside the division for two years then rotate, this will mean these teams will actually play four straight years do to the scheduling. To simplify it, every team from "A" plays the same team from "B" while they are on a schedule with C one year and D the next. Here's an example:

Year 1: Iowa plays nebby, minny, wisky, all four from "C" and ILL
Nebby plays Iowa, Minny, Wisky, all four from "C" and Mizz
Year 2: Iowa plays nebby, minny, wisky, all four from "D" and ILL
Nebby plays Iowa, Minny, Wisky, all four from "D" and Mizz
Year 4: Iowa plays nebby, minny, wisky, all four from "B" and PSU
Nebby plays Iowa, Minny, Wisky, all four from "B" and Rutg
Year 5: Iowa plays nebby, minny, wisky, all four from "C" and PSU
Nebby plays Iowa, Minny, Wisky, all four from "C" and Rutg

It would work as long as full pods are matched against each other. It may be a scheduling nightmare in the long run but I doubt any of us here write it anyway.
 
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I'm 100% sure there will be 9 conference games.
We've heard comments from columbus to Iowa city, why are
we paying ark st's of the world $1m plus to come play us?

I have no idea how expansion plays out but irregardless
there WILL be 9 conference games.
 
1. Expanding to 16 teams would be a HUGE mistake.

2. If the Big 10 did expand to 16 teams, I don't see a four-division conference. It would be much too complicated.
 
CAARHawk said:
I give Pod D an F. No way that is a Pod.

If it goes to a Pod system, each Pod will have to have a driving team. That means OSU and Michigan will be in different Pods. Without ND and with Nebby, The drivers would be Nebby, PSU, OSU, and UM. These will be the number one seeds. UM and Michigan can be a protected rivalry.

I could see something like this

West
Nebby
Iowa
Wisky
Minny

North Central
UM
MSU
Northwestern
Purdue

South Central
OSU
Indy
Illinois
Mizzou

East
PSU
Rutgers
Maryland
Other Big East or ACC
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No way in hell Nebraska gets a #1 over Iowa...no way.
 
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