here's the play that baffled me

The way I read the OP is confussion over the play call, not that MW couldn't score a touchdown on a play where the blocking was blown up. Do we really want to run a toss sweep to MW against the speed of an SEC defense?

If you don't think speed matters in football, then I'm not sure what to tell you. Speed can beat fundamentals almost every time. Why do you think the $EC is paying top dollar for speed?


Speed will never, ever, ever beat fundamentals. If it did you'd see more track athletes on the football field and blocking and tackling, u know fundamentals, wouldn't matter!

Incidentally the SEC is the best because they are better football players, period! When Bama kicked the crap out of ND they absolutely annihilated them in the trenches they were three times as physical. ND was playing cute and "scheming" you know another hot button our fans rave about and Bama lined up and ran over the top of them!

Honestly this speed thing wears me out! Leaf back thru the SEC pro days over the past 5 plus years and The Big 10s....you'll find negligible difference. They are better football players NOT faster. I've ran it down a hundred plus times so I'll use one quick analogy and leave the rest to you. Tanner Miller and Ha Ha Dix had remarkably similar speed and agility times and in fact I think Tanner beat him in several, yet.......it's not speed it's ability, period. And as you said if you don't get it, I can't explain in to you!
 
sharing a link to a specific spot in the video works on Facebook and other social media, but not on HN.
 
Speed will never, ever, ever beat fundamentals. If it did you'd see more track athletes on the football field and blocking and tackling, u know fundamentals, wouldn't matter!

Incidentally the SEC is the best because they are better football players, period! When Bama kicked the crap out of ND they absolutely annihilated them in the trenches they were three times as physical. ND was playing cute and "scheming" you know another hot button our fans rave about and Bama lined up and ran over the top of them!

Honestly this speed thing wears me out! Leaf back thru the SEC pro days over the past 5 plus years and The Big 10s....you'll find negligible difference. They are better football players NOT faster. I've ran it down a hundred plus times so I'll use one quick analogy and leave the rest to you. Tanner Miller and Ha Ha Dix had remarkably similar speed and agility times and in fact I think Tanner beat him in several, yet.......it's not speed it's ability, period. And as you said if you don't get it, I can't explain in to you!


99, see your statements I've bolded and my responses below:

* This is not correct and I disagree with this statement completely. There is a reason the NFL covets speed.
* That is a generalization. In your opinion, what makes SEC players better football players? What makes a 6'-2" 230 lb linebacker playing for 'Bama, better than a 6'-2" 230 lb linebacker playing for Iowa?
* Let's say that both Tanner Miller and Ha Ha Clinton-Dix both have have 4.5 40 speed and are equally fundamentally sound at their position. Keep in mind that safties don't cover other safties, they cover WR's. Both Miller and Clinton-Dix would get burned by a WR with 4.3 speed, who was equally fundamentally sound at his position (meaning he has the ability to gain separation at the LOS). But if both the offensive and defensive players in a given matchup are equally as fundamentally sound at their position, what is the deciding factor on who wins that given battle? Speed. That is an example of a natural/typical matchup in a game. What if you have a CB coming on a corner blitz? Any tackle (left or right) can be as fundamentally sound as anyone at the tackle position, but the CB will simply run right past them. The reason a corner blitz doesn't happen on every play is because it is a relative great distance for the CB to travel and takes time and this allows the offense to adjust and throw hot.
 
99, see your statements I've bolded and my responses below:* This is not correct and I disagree with this statement completely. There is a reason the NFL covets speed.* That is a generalization. In your opinion, what makes SEC players better football players? What makes a 6'-2" 230 lb linebacker playing for 'Bama, better than a 6'-2" 230 lb linebacker playing for Iowa? * Let's say that both Tanner Miller and Ha Ha Clinton-Dix both have have 4.5 40 speed and are equally fundamentally sound at their position. Keep in mind that safties don't cover other safties, they cover WR's. Both Miller and Clinton-Dix would get burned by a WR with 4.3 speed, who was equally fundamentally sound at his position (meaning he has the ability to gain separation at the LOS). But if both the offensive and defensive players in a given matchup are equally as fundamentally sound at their position, what is the deciding factor on who wins that given battle? Speed. That is an example of a natural/typical matchup in a game. What if you have a CB coming on a corner blitz? Any tackle (left or right) can be as fundamentally sound as anyone at the tackle position, but the CB will simply run right past them. The reason a corner blitz doesn't happen on every play is because it is a relative great distance for the CB to travel and takes time and this allows the offense to adjust and throw hot.
Please do the research yourself I've actually done it. I'm going to go clear back to that fateful Ohio State versus LSU game from several years back. Everyone said LSU was so much faster that's where they beat them.....When in reality Ohio stating ended up putting more kids in the NFL off that team than LSU did and to a man were mostly faster. In fact LSU had 3D-backs that ran 4.6 plus 40s and two linebackers that ran anywhere from 4.89 on up to 5.0. One of the linebackers was Ali Highsmith so you can look them up yourself and one of the D backs is Craig Stelts who still plays for the Bears.In retrospect Iowa has had very few D backs run 4.6+ 40s over the last 10 years and very few linebackers run 4.8 plus... Yet superfast LSU had five on one team. See some of these other guys they are really good with Xs and Os so I defer to them but this stuff I know this stuff as I've followed it for 10+ years because I know the speed thing is mostly bull$&$@.Again I'm not trying to be an arse to you but fans have exceptionally limited knowledge of what these NFL guys are really running. Most of the RBs in this years class, the top shelf ones all ran 4.6 plus 40s. There are gobs of 4.6 to 4.7 Dbacks in the league, safeties in particular. In fact Leonard Johnson CB from Iowa State Ran a 4.71 and went undrafted. All he did was be the primary Nickelback last year for Tampa Bay and return an INT for a touchdown.Superfast Oklahoma a few years back had 2 safeties both run 4.7+ 40s and they were prior four star players. I actually can go on and on and on with this. But I'll finish with the fairly simple question you asked. How do you separate the players well fundamentals. Who has the better football IQ, who has the better instincts, who recognizes the play the fastest and therefore reacts the fastest. Again something people don't understand. The better football player you are, the better your fundamentals are, the faster you're going to look on the field.Apparently you'd be surprised to find out that over the last 10 years Iowa routinely has fielded one of the faster defenses in college football. And even though Greg Davis said we were slow out at the wideout position we've now had several snapshots that that isn't true. I mention because what I think he really meant is good and route running ability. You talk about things like separation, well few Wrs get separation like Wes Welker and let me tell you, he isn't fast.Ps....Shonn Green looked electric on a college football field and he ran a 4.58 to. 4.62 depending on whether you used his Pro day or combine time.Pps.... Ted Ginn Jr was one of the faster players in pro football and you see how limited his career has been. He got way overdrafted because of his speed, he doesn't run good routes he doesn't catch the ball well, in short his fundamentals just aren't very good.Ppps.... Please don't think these are isolated cases I could run this down for hours if you need more examples I have them and there are lots and lots of them.Ppps.... I'm not sure why are Fans in particular are so against this. But it always comes back to fundamentals and execution. I guess maybe they think if we had faster players we would be better but in reality we have a lot of fast players. They just need to play better!
 
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I could score a touchdown on a pitch play if it is blocked perfectly. It doesn't mean I am going to be cashing in my eligibility anytime soon. Iowa has such a desire to be interchangable at positions that they sometimes fail in playing to strengths and avoiding weaknesses. Hopefully they get Weisman back to what he is good at this year, and don't try to get him in space against defenses that are bigger, stronger, and faster than him.
 
I could score a touchdown on a pitch play if it is blocked perfectly. It doesn't mean I am going to be cashing in my eligibility anytime soon. Iowa has such a desire to be interchangable at positions that they sometimes fail in playing to strengths and avoiding weaknesses. Hopefully they get Weisman back to what he is good at this year, and don't try to get him in space against defenses that are bigger, stronger, and faster than him.
Do you really mean that? Because if you do the stats show most of his success came on the zone stretch to the left, so it seems we agree....
 
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By the way Arvada,I just reread your post and again that is a drastic oversimplification. I would wager as a general rule the wide receivers are faster than the cornerbacks in the NFL yet they don't win those matchups one-on-one all the time at all. Sorry I know you hate it but the speed isn't the deciding factor who's the better football player. Yes the speed can be the deciding factor but clearly it isn't all the time or even most of the time.
 
By the way Arvada,I just reread your post and again that is a drastic oversimplification. I would wager as a general rule the wide receivers are faster than the cornerbacks in the NFL yet they don't win those matchups one-on-one all the time at all. Sorry I know you hate it but the speed isn't the deciding factor who's the better football player. Yes the speed can be the deciding factor but clearly it isn't all the time or even most of the time.

99, have you ever heard of the Tampa 2 (cover 2) defense? In case you haven't, it was developed to provide deep coverage (double teams) to help corners that weren't fast enough to stay with WR's. It is now pretty much a staple in the NFL. So what are NFL offenses doing? They are finding TE's that are...faster (meaning, more speed) than NFL lb's, to work the middle seam of the field, inside the cover 2. But hey, O$U put more players into the NFL than LSU, that season. Good to know.
 
It is truly remarkable that there are fans out there that think a play doesn't have to be blocked. We have reached a point in our society where somebody makes up their mind ahead of time and then all the facts they look at bear out what they want to see. If the play doesn't get blocked it's not going to go anywhere. Jordan Canzeri would not of made that play work, man alive I don't get it.

And incidentally that freshman quarterback for LSU who couldn't pass was a four star superstar quarterback who was fast and got offered by everybody in the country. He also had a month to prepare and was the number two quarterback on a team that I am told routinely recruits fantastic football players 2 and 3 and 4 deep....what's that tell you?!

i've got a couple buddies at work we laugh all the time at what seems to be a pretty ridiculous play call that goes for 60 70 80 yards. In fact one of them has a funny comment, perfect execution does not make a bad play call good. The reverse is also true... I'm going to toss this out to the gentleman that thinks he has it figured out with the "ifs" and "should've" and then, statement! If that play out there is not blocked properly very very very rarely is it going to go anywhere. You guys can whine and gnash your teeth all you want about MW, but all it really shows is a limited understanding of running the football. There are a lot of backs in the NFL that run 4.6 and 4.7 forties. Jeremy Hill from LSU for instance ran a 4.66, it's all about blocking, power, vision, lowering your pads, and running through contact. Homerun speed is in material. I agree explosion to the hole is great, but I have a sneaking suspicion when MW runs his 10 yard dash next spring a lot of people will be real quiet. Please do the research yourself I've actually done it. I'm going to go clear back to that fateful Ohio State versus LSU game from several years back. Everyone said LSU was so much faster that's where they beat them.....When in reality Ohio stating ended up putting more kids in the NFL off that team than LSU did and to a man were mostly faster. In fact LSU had 3D-backs that ran 4.6 plus 40s and two linebackers that ran anywhere from 4.89 on up to 5.0. One of the linebackers was Ali Highsmith so you can look them up yourself and one of the D backs is Craig Stelts who still plays for the Bears.In retrospect Iowa has had very few D backs run 4.6+ 40s over the last 10 years and very few linebackers run 4.8 plus... Yet superfast LSU had five on one team. See some of these other guys they are really good with Xs and Os so I defer to them but this stuff I know this stuff as I've followed it for 10+ years because I know the speed thing is mostly bull$&$@.Again I'm not trying to be an arse to you but fans have exceptionally limited knowledge of what these NFL guys are really running. Most of the RBs in this years class, the top shelf ones all ran 4.6 plus 40s. There are gobs of 4.6 to 4.7 Dbacks in the league, safeties in particular. In fact Leonard Johnson CB from Iowa State Ran a 4.71 and went undrafted. All he did was be the primary Nickelback last year for Tampa Bay and return an INT for a touchdown.Superfast Oklahoma a few years back had 2 safeties both run 4.7+ 40s and they were prior four star players. I actually can go on and on and on with this. But I'll finish with the fairly simple question you asked. How do you separate the players well fundamentals. Who has the better football IQ, who has the better instincts, who recognizes the play the fastest and therefore reacts the fastest. Again something people don't understand. The better football player you are, the better your fundamentals are, the faster you're going to look on the field.Apparently you'd be surprised to find out that over the last 10 years Iowa routinely has fielded one of the faster defenses in college football. And even though Greg Davis said we were slow out at the wideout position we've now had several snapshots that that isn't true. I mention because what I think he really meant is good and route running ability. You talk about things like separation, well few Wrs get separation like Wes Welker and let me tell you, he isn't fast.Ps....Shonn Green looked electric on a college football field and he ran a 4.58 to. 4.62 depending on whether you used his Pro day or combine time.Pps.... Ted Ginn Jr was one of the faster players in pro football and you see how limited his career has been. He got way overdrafted because of his speed, he doesn't run good routes he doesn't catch the ball well, in short his fundamentals just aren't very good.Ppps.... Please don't think these are isolated cases I could run this down for hours if you need more examples I have them and there are lots and lots of them.Ppps.... I'm not sure why are Fans in particular are so against this. But it always comes back to fundamentals and execution. I guess maybe they think if we had faster players we would be better but in reality we have a lot of fast players. They just need to play better!

TLDR, LOL

p.s. Speed matters. It's not the only thing, but it matters.
 
99, have you ever heard of the Tampa 2 (cover 2) defense? In case you haven't, it was developed to provide deep coverage (double teams) to help corners that weren't fast enough to stay with WR's. It is now pretty much a staple in the NFL. So what are NFL offenses doing? They are finding TE's that are...faster (meaning, more speed) than NFL lb's, to work the middle seam of the field, inside the cover 2. But hey, O$U put more players into the NFL than LSU, that season. Good to know.
Arvada did you know that some of the most successful TEs in the NFL aren't even that fast comparatively speaking. And Arvada did you know that many of the best running backs in the NFL actually run 4.6 plus 40s, if our tailbacks run 4.6s our fans think their slow… LOL and Arvada did you also know linebackers in the NFL even those that run for 4.7 plus forties cover slot receivers and Tes in the NFL all the time.Ps..... I'm not sure if you know this but I don't think Tampa Bay Ran a Tampa 2 last year under Schiano. And undoubtedly you must not know this but I'm not sure even half the teams in the NFL run a Tampa 2 anymore.....lol in fact a quick Google search yields only a couple. I do love unfounded sarcasm when it bites a person back though...
 
You can't just look at the players that go to the combine to determine team speed...those are the best of the best from each team and those that are getting drafted, most likely anyway. When you talk about speed that matters on a football team, it's team speed...especially on defense. It's the cumulative speed that allows DE, DT, LB's to run sideline to sideline making plays. Speed and agility on the DLine helps close gaps and simply makes it difficult to find gaps to run the football. We had three LB's last year that could do that, but our DL isn't going to compare to some in the SEC. I really don't see much of a different in speed in the defensive backfields for most B10 or SEC teams...and I think the drafts may bear that out...not sure though. It's the team speed of the front seven that matters on defense...and the ability to get to the QB quickly.

That being said, the reason I was going to post was that I watched the LSU bowl game again. I realize Lowdermilk ran back an interception that set up a score, but wow, I've never seen a guy take so many poor angles on a RB in a long time. I think there is a reason Nico Law is back in the mix here. Take a look, almost all of Hill's long runs, JL completely whiffed...and I don't think he touched him on many...I'm a fan of his, but you have to call it like the tape shows it.
 
Honestly Billso,Did anyone say it didn't matter? Of course not that's a classic misdirection tactic. You make and over simplistic statement in an effort to undermine the full message. Here is what is important 10 yard dashes, shuttle times, cone drills, broad jumps.... All more indicative of explosion and quickness which is much more important than 40 yard dash. But still secondary to play recognition and physical ability not related to speed. I/e ball skills, getting off blocks, maintaining blocks, etc.
 
You can't just look at the players that go to the combine to determine team speed...those are the best of the best from each team and those that are getting drafted, most likely anyway. When you talk about speed that matters on a football team, it's team speed...especially on defense. It's the cumulative speed that allows DE, DT, LB's to run sideline to sideline making plays. Speed and agility on the DLine helps close gaps and simply makes it difficult to find gaps to run the football. We had three LB's last year that could do that, but our DL isn't going to compare to some in the SEC. I really don't see much of a different in speed in the defensive backfields for most B10 or SEC teams...and I think the drafts may bear that out...not sure though. It's the team speed of the front seven that matters on defense...and the ability to get to the QB quickly.That being said, the reason I was going to post was that I watched the LSU bowl game again. I realize Lowdermilk ran back an interception that set up a score, but wow, I've never seen a guy take so many poor angles on a RB in a long time. I think there is a reason Nico Law is back in the mix here. Take a look, almost all of Hill's long runs, JL completely whiffed...and I don't think he touched him on many...I'm a fan of his, but you have to call it like the tape shows it.
All of that is true however I've done this composite over 10 years in which case you can most assuredly draw conclusions. In fact I can tell you the 40 yard dash times of every linebacker Iowa has played over the last 12 years. Same goes for the defensive lineman and the defensive backs and I'm here to tell you they are always in the upper echelon as comparative to the SEC. So is Ohio State so's Michigan State so is Wisconsin so is Nebbie so is Penn State and surprisingly Purdue has put a lot of speedy linebackers and defensive lineman in the NFL.But the most important thing you said is angles and play recognition. Speed can't fix that. As I've now said at least three times in this very thread. Jeremy Hill is not a blazing fast tailback he ran a 4.66 40 yard dash. But they blocked us at the point of attack and then we took miserable angles and also tackled very poorly in route to him running for 200+ yards. Again not a speed thing purely an execution and fundamental thing. You very succinctly pointed that out in a lot less words than me and I thank you.As far as the speed thing goes the quickness drills, the shuttles and whatnot are far more indicative of real football speed. And general football IQ can make a person look really fast. If people went back and started googling 40 yard dash times for some of the best players in the NFL they'd be surprised what they found. Some guys really truly are fast but lots and lots of them just play fast which when it comes right down to it is really the same thing right.Tom Coughlin and Bill Bellichik or two guys famous for drafting the best football players not the fastest ones. But what they say doesn't hardly matter it's not like they've had much success....
 
The way I read the OP is confussion over the play call, not that MW couldn't score a touchdown on a play where the blocking was blown up. Do we really want to run a toss sweep to MW against the speed of an SEC defense?

If you don't think speed matters in football, then I'm not sure what to tell you. Speed can beat fundamentals almost every time. Why do you think the $EC is paying top dollar for speed?

$EC is paying top dollar "period". Speed, size, etc. Grades, lawyers, media, the whole gamut.

We get it. The $EC is better, faster, stronger, etc. The difference? You said it yourself.

We have had reasonable success against #EC teams over the years. Speed is but one facet, though.

In the case of the 2014 Outback Bowl, BTN folks nailed it early on: mismatch. L$U was playing DOWN a bowl rung or two, we were playing UP the same amount.

The play was fine. The execution whiffed.
 
99, see your statements I've bolded and my responses below:

* This is not correct and I disagree with this statement completely. There is a reason the NFL covets speed.
* That is a generalization. In your opinion, what makes SEC players better football players? What makes a 6'-2" 230 lb linebacker playing for 'Bama, better than a 6'-2" 230 lb linebacker playing for Iowa?
* Let's say that both Tanner Miller and Ha Ha Clinton-Dix both have have 4.5 40 speed and are equally fundamentally sound at their position. Keep in mind that safties don't cover other safties, they cover WR's. Both Miller and Clinton-Dix would get burned by a WR with 4.3 speed, who was equally fundamentally sound at his position (meaning he has the ability to gain separation at the LOS). But if both the offensive and defensive players in a given matchup are equally as fundamentally sound at their position, what is the deciding factor on who wins that given battle? Speed. That is an example of a natural/typical matchup in a game. What if you have a CB coming on a corner blitz? Any tackle (left or right) can be as fundamentally sound as anyone at the tackle position, but the CB will simply run right past them. The reason a corner blitz doesn't happen on every play is because it is a relative great distance for the CB to travel and takes time and this allows the offense to adjust and throw hot.

It is deceptively easy for guys with 4.5 speed to cover guys with 4.3 speed. It was easy for Ed Hinkel to beat coverage on faster DBs.

Speed is nice to have. It is far from the first "necessary" in football success.
 
It is deceptively easy for guys with 4.5 speed to cover guys with 4.3 speed. It was easy for Ed Hinkel to beat coverage on faster DBs.

Speed is nice to have. It is far from the first "necessary" in football success.

You nailed it Bob,


Lots of different facets at play here. Interestingly enuff even world-class sprinters spend arduous hour after hour honing and executing their craft. Getting out of the blocks, staying low, timing their breathing, staying loose. I've never understood why fans argue so against the value of execution. At the end of the day that's all there is execution and attitude.
 
Speedster track stars who do not have wide receiver footwork are not going to strike terror in most defenses.

If the above mentioned speedster has great hands then that helps as perhaps he can just run fly patterns and a quick out or slant to try to beat a defender to the ball and go the distance.
 
We don't need long discourses to conclude that speed is necessary but not sufficient. Execution is necessary as well, but by its self is not always sufficient. Can we agree on this? And still that toss to Weisman against LSU baffled me.
 

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