Here is the problem that Fran and other coaches face, today.

L

lightning1

Well-Known Member
Today's players are very different from the players of 30 yrs ago. I'll explain.
when Fran started coaching, there was no such thing as year round basketball. You played for your middle school or high school team and the rest of the year you played pick up games for fun or other sports that you enjoyed. When school basketball season was approaching, you reset your brain to prepare for that, to some degree. Fran only had to concentrate on getting his players conditioned and the Xs and Os.

Today's players started playing basketball when they were in 4th or 5th grade. As they get older, they join a local basketball club. That goes several months. Then they play for their school team. Then, there may be a second club season. Parents are paying for private lessons, etc. Many of today's players get burned out and quit by their JR or SR seasons in high school because it's not fun any more. It's become a full time, year round job. It's work. "You gotta work harder than him". "You gotta out work him". "You need to work on your jump shot". How did the word "work" get inserted into a sport that's supposed to be fun?

When these players hear the same things over and over again, year round, you lose the ability to get them motivated by just rolling the ball on the floor. They're still in the game physically but they are psychologically unchallenged and emotionally detached. These are the things that are absolutely necessary towards the end of a long season, when they are physically exhausted and mentally fatigued with ball/class load.

Some kids today are so driven and competitive that all you need to do is roll the ball out. They get that extra "something" from within. But most players need more from their coaches than they did 30 years ago, to get the most out of them. Some coaches adapt and change their approach to fit the needs of each player. These are the ones that can take a Mid Major and reach the Great 8. These are the ones that can take a roster of good D-1 talent and win a National Championship over 20 other programs in the NCAA field that have similar talent. (the Kentucky's and Duke's of the world not withstanding).
 
This is a complex issue to grasp and I don't often get into this in depth kind of discussion here. But I thought I would throw this out there and see what people thought once they looked at it from this angle. Some aren't capable of doing that and I understand why. That's why it isn't always well received by everyone. I'm sure some of you are thinking "They get to play basketball for IOWA.....what more do they need"?
If this peaks your interest and you want to delve deeper into this, I'd be happy to.
 
This is same issues with all sports. I talked long time with former college football coach for long time about that. This is exactly what he thought... He thought they were getting burned out by doing same things over and over . Kinda like Bodybuilder, It takes years to build up to where they are and they spend too much time in the mirror.
th
the key word is overly obsessive with themselves.
 
It takes a different approach to truly get the most out of your players, unless you are careful to recruit the tough minded kind of kids that get motivated from within.
Coaches that have been successful for decades may be unwilling to or unable to change how they coach their players. It takes a lot of practice to be able to implement that kind of change from a coaching stand point because you have become programmed as a coach. And that's not a flaw. It's what you have become and it's hard to change.
That's why it's important to recognize that and get some guys on your staff that can add that dimension.
 
There's a reason why Todd Lickliter went from Coach of the Year at Butler, to Coach Fail at Iowa. Lickliter knows a lot about basketball. The Xs and Os, the strategy, etc. Brad Stephens was the the guy that coached the minds and hearts of the players. We got Lick, Stephens stayed at Butler! And that was a massive failure on Gary Barta's part. That's why Lickliter is on the unemployment line and Brad Stephens is coaching in the NBA. Motivating multiple ego maniacs is the requirement of an NBA coach. So, NBA GMs spend a lot of time looking for those guys. When they can't find one that's interested, they usually recycle a Larry Brown or a George Karl and keep their fingers crossed.
 
At one time, I coached varsity level basketball. When I first started, kids weren't doing 3rd grade traveling teams or AAU. Their first exposure to organized basketball was their Jr High team. They were just learning the game, but that was ok. Their enthusiasm made up for it!

When adults got involved, that all changed. Booster clubs figured out they could raise a ton of cash by inviting kids teams in for a little tournament. Adults began to organize teams at younger and younger ages. The teams began to travel further and further distances to play games. They even began overnight trips and out of state trips.

There's some good that comes from this, but I feel there's even more bad.

#1 The coaches of these teams start with good intentions, but eventually become more concerned with winning games than teaching fundamentals. The first few practices work on fundamentals, but they soon dispense with that and focus on memorizing half court sets and how to get their "star players" the ball.

#2 Kids at these young ages aren't strong enough to heave a full size ball into a 10' hoop. They get a lot of bad habits and hitches in their shooting motion.

#3 If you aren't on one of these elementary school travel teams, you don't feel welcome to join the Jr High team when you get to that age. These other kids are the "basketball team" and you aren't part of it. The PG has already been decided. Other kids have been playing their positions for years now. Who are you to think you are to come in and take "their position" away from them? You aren't needed.

#4 Burnout. "Our 5th grade traveling team played in the Target Center and stayed at the Marriott for a week. Why would I want to join the school team and go to Podunk Center to play in their little gym?"

I can remember how proud I was to play on my 7th grade team. But it's no big deal to many kids now. They've been there, they've done that since 3rd grade, and they are tired of it. Yawn.

It's a shame. But I guess times change. The cat's out of the bag and there is nothing that can be done to put him back.

If you didn't tl;dr this, thanks.
 
1hawkeye1 said:
At one time, I coached varsity level basketball. When I first started, kids weren't doing 3rd grade traveling teams or AAU. Their first exposure to organized basketball was their Jr High team. They were just learning the game, but that was ok. Their enthusiasm made up for it!

When adults got involved, that all changed. Booster clubs figured out they could raise a ton of cash by inviting kids teams in for a little tournament. Adults began to organize teams at younger and younger ages. The teams began to travel further and further distances to play games. They even began overnight trips and out of state trips.

There's some good that comes from this, but I feel there's even more bad.

#1 The coaches of these teams start with good intentions, but eventually become more concerned with winning games than teaching fundamentals. The first few practices work on fundamentals, but they soon dispense with that and focus on memorizing half court sets and how to get their "star players" the ball.

#2 Kids at these young ages aren't strong enough to heave a full size ball into a 10' hoop. They get a lot of bad habits and hitches in their shooting motion.

#3 If you aren't on one of these elementary school travel teams, you don't feel welcome to join the Jr High team when you get to that age. These other kids are the "basketball team" and you aren't part of it. The PG has already been decided. Other kids have been playing their positions for years now. Who are you to think you are to come in and take "their position" away from them? You aren't needed.

#4 Burnout. "Our 5th grade traveling team played in the Target Center and stayed at the Marriott for a week. Why would I want to join the school team and go to Podunk Center to play in their little gym?"

I can remember how proud I was to play on my 7th grade team. But it's no big deal to many kids now. They've been there, they've done that since 3rd grade, and they are tired of it. Yawn.

It's a shame. But I guess times change. The cat's out of the bag and there is nothing that can be done to put him back.

If you didn't tl;dr this, thanks.
Click to expand...

You saw it first hand. Now try and figure out how to get those kids to play better in college, than they ever dreamed of. That's a tall order. And it's nothing like 30 years ago, when a lot of these coaches started.
 
1hawkeye1 said:
At one time, I coached varsity level basketball. When I first started, kids weren't doing 3rd grade traveling teams or AAU. Their first exposure to organized basketball was their Jr High team. They were just learning the game, but that was ok. Their enthusiasm made up for it!

When adults got involved, that all changed. Booster clubs figured out they could raise a ton of cash by inviting kids teams in for a little tournament. Adults began to organize teams at younger and younger ages. The teams began to travel further and further distances to play games. They even began overnight trips and out of state trips.

There's some good that comes from this, but I feel there's even more bad.

#1 The coaches of these teams start with good intentions, but eventually become more concerned with winning games than teaching fundamentals. The first few practices work on fundamentals, but they soon dispense with that and focus on memorizing half court sets and how to get their "star players" the ball.

#2 Kids at these young ages aren't strong enough to heave a full size ball into a 10' hoop. They get a lot of bad habits and hitches in their shooting motion.

#3 If you aren't on one of these elementary school travel teams, you don't feel welcome to join the Jr High team when you get to that age. These other kids are the "basketball team" and you aren't part of it. The PG has already been decided. Other kids have been playing their positions for years now. Who are you to think you are to come in and take "their position" away from them? You aren't needed.

#4 Burnout. "Our 5th grade traveling team played in the Target Center and stayed at the Marriott for a week. Why would I want to join the school team and go to Podunk Center to play in their little gym?"

I can remember how proud I was to play on my 7th grade team. But it's no big deal to many kids now. They've been there, they've done that since 3rd grade, and they are tired of it. Yawn.

It's a shame. But I guess times change. The cat's out of the bag and there is nothing that can be done to put him back.


DITTO 100X on all your pts!! I do still coach Varsity HS basketball... I'll add a couple more.

6. Picking out those 8-10 boys in 3rd-4th grade - how do these parents know which one is going to sprout to 6'5-6'7? I've seen more kids who aren't playing as Jr/Sr who were the 'stud' in 6th/7th just because they physically matured early.

7. Specializing early in one sport. Never playing football and the work/wt lifting that goes with it. Never having the experience of a football playoff game, the bottom of a 7th inning regional final, district track meet, sectional wrestling meet - any of those where you lose and the season over experiences. That's where you build 'mental toughness' - you learn through experience what it takes. Playing 100 AAU/travel games and 'we lost, now we play on Court D at 2:00', doesn't do that. Kids can't believe when you tell them that Hoiberg was an All-State QB.

8. Parents spending $$ and lots of it. By the time they reach HS, now want a return on investment. Also those they invest with - "you're D1".... so many have made it a business. If you want to pay me $2000 every spring/summer for 5th thru 11th to tell you that and I do that for 60-100 kids - that is the model that works for 2 kids - maybe, the rest - it's somebody else's fault.

Agree - don't know how you change this today
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I think you are over thinking this. Sure, ego management and motivation is to some degree part of every competitive exercise. But, I think, most kids playing high major athletics either are working to be professionals or love competing.

Really, basketball, is and always has been a pretty simple game. Get the best players, and win lots of game. Phil Jackson is a great coach when has Michael Jordan and less of a great coach when he does not. John Wooden was great sure, but he also had Bill Walton, Kareem Abdul-Jabar, and other greats.

Games aren't consistently won or lost on "desire" or "motivation." Gessell and Woody tried really hard, they just had certain physical limitations, that perhaps Yogi Ferrell and Thomas Bryant didn't have. Nothing to do with motivation.
 
drew003 said:
I think you are over thinking this. Sure, ego management and motivation is to some degree part of every competitive exercise. But, I think, most kids playing high major athletics either are working to be professionals or love competing.

Really, basketball, is and always has been a pretty simple game. Get the best players, and win lots of game. Phil Jackson is a great coach when has Michael Jordan and less of a great coach when he does not. John Wooden was great sure, but he also had Bill Walton, Kareem Abdul-Jabar, and other greats.

Games aren't consistently won or lost on "desire" or "motivation." Gessell and Woody tried really hard, they just had certain physical limitations, that perhaps Yogi Ferrell and Thomas Bryant didn't have. Nothing to do with motivation.
Click to expand...

You missed the point. Not surprising or unexpected as most people approach how they view sports by their own experiences. Or, like you just did, you pull examples from people or situations that you have no inside knowledge of. The genius of Phil Jackson isn't how he coached MJ. MJ took care of MJ. It's how he got the most out of the other 8 or 9 players. I can go down the list of top 50 All-time NBA players and find several that didn't win an NBA title. But this conversation isn't intended to discuss players in the NBA or coaches in the NBA. This is about amateur athletics.
 
This isn't about winning basketball games. Or losing basketball games. We can all point to the physical things that occur on the floor, that result in wins/losses. This is about: Why do some teams get worse down the stretch of seasons and some teams get better. How do you go from 40% 3 pt shooting% for 20 games and then go 25% for the next 10? If injuries or player losses aren't involved, it's usually mental. If it's not mental, then it's a lack of strategical adaptation by the coaching staff.
For the sake of the points I am trying to make in this thread, I am not including these other possible, additional issues. I know this isn't one single thing. If it was, it would be easy to fix.
 
lightning1 said:
You missed the point. Not surprising or unexpected as most people approach how they view sports by their own experiences. Or, like you just did, you pull examples from people or situations that you have no inside knowledge of. The genius of Phil Jackson isn't how he coached MJ. MJ took care of MJ. It's how he got the most out of the other 8 or 9 players. I can go down the list of top 50 All-time NBA players and find several that didn't win an NBA title. But this conversation isn't intended to discuss players in the NBA or coaches in the NBA. This is about amateur athletics.
Click to expand...

I apologize. I did not realize you were speaking based on of your inside knowledge of amateur athletics over the past 40 years. I'll double down on my statements that kids 30 years ago are the same as kids today--some are lazy, some love to compete, and all fall on a spectrum somewhere in between. Oh, and give me the best players, and I will be the best motivator you've seen.
 
lightning1 said:
Today's players are very different from the players of 30 yrs ago. I'll explain.
when Fran started coaching, there was no such thing as year round basketball. You played for your middle school or high school team and the rest of the year you played pick up games for fun or other sports that you enjoyed. When school basketball season was approaching, you reset your brain to prepare for that, to some degree. Fran only had to concentrate on getting his players conditioned and the Xs and Os.

Today's players started playing basketball when they were in 4th or 5th grade. As they get older, they join a local basketball club. That goes several months. Then they play for their school team. Then, there may be a second club season. Parents are paying for private lessons, etc. Many of today's players get burned out and quit by their JR or SR seasons in high school because it's not fun any more. It's become a full time, year round job. It's work. "You gotta work harder than him". "You gotta out work him". "You need to work on your jump shot". How did the word "work" get inserted into a sport that's supposed to be fun?

When these players hear the same things over and over again, year round, you lose the ability to get them motivated by just rolling the ball on the floor. They're still in the game physically but they are psychologically unchallenged and emotionally detached. These are the things that are absolutely necessary towards the end of a long season, when they are physically exhausted and mentally fatigued with ball/class load.

Some kids today are so driven and competitive that all you need to do is roll the ball out. They get that extra "something" from within. But most players need more from their coaches than they did 30 years ago, to get the most out of them. Some coaches adapt and change their approach to fit the needs of each player. These are the ones that can take a Mid Major and reach the Great 8. These are the ones that can take a roster of good D-1 talent and win a National Championship over 20 other programs in the NCAA field that have similar talent. (the Kentucky's and Duke's of the world not withstanding).
Click to expand...

The premise of your post is that there was not year-round basketball 30 years ago. I submit to you that there was. When I was in college in the late 1970's, we could join leagues all over the state of Iowa. Heck, the Prime Time League in Iowa City was going strong; one of the guys I work with who is about my age played in that league when he was in high school.

A middle school and high school youth could go to several basketball camps all summer (I attended two myself) as well as playing leagues. While they were not as organized as they are today, it was available then. I did miss several league games as I was on the high school baseball team; in Iowa, HS baseball's regular season is played from May through July.
 
1hawkeye1 said:
At one time, I coached varsity level basketball. When I first started, kids weren't doing 3rd grade traveling teams or AAU. Their first exposure to organized basketball was their Jr High team. They were just learning the game, but that was ok. Their enthusiasm made up for it!

When adults got involved, that all changed. Booster clubs figured out they could raise a ton of cash by inviting kids teams in for a little tournament. Adults began to organize teams at younger and younger ages. The teams began to travel further and further distances to play games. They even began overnight trips and out of state trips.

There's some good that comes from this, but I feel there's even more bad.

#1 The coaches of these teams start with good intentions, but eventually become more concerned with winning games than teaching fundamentals. The first few practices work on fundamentals, but they soon dispense with that and focus on memorizing half court sets and how to get their "star players" the ball.
Click to expand...
To me this is a huge problem in youth basketball. I honestly can't believe some of the things I see at the youth levels. I've seen zone defenses and half court traps at the 3rd and 4th grade levels for both girls and boys. What are you teaching kids? By the time our kids get older we start beating those teams because they have no idea how to play real defense, it's all just a gimmick, but during that stretch as a coach do you focus on fundamentals and just get your butt kicked because we aren't big and strong enough to deal with zone defenses? Or do you work on half court sets to beat that stuff so you can be competitive? This is what coaches have to think about at the youth level. You only get an hour or two of practice a week. By the time the kids get older, a lot of the fun is sucked out of it, and it's just a job. Right now my kids still seem to love the game and want to play, but part of me wonders if they will get sick of it when they get older. Playing low level college got tiresome and I played a fraction of what my kids have played.
 
drew003 said:
I think you are over thinking this. Sure, ego management and motivation is to some degree part of every competitive exercise. But, I think, most kids playing high major athletics either are working to be professionals or love competing.

Really, basketball, is and always has been a pretty simple game. Get the best players, and win lots of game. Phil Jackson is a great coach when has Michael Jordan and less of a great coach when he does not. John Wooden was great sure, but he also had Bill Walton, Kareem Abdul-Jabar, and other greats.

Games aren't consistently won or lost on "desire" or "motivation." Gessell and Woody tried really hard, they just had certain physical limitations, that perhaps Yogi Ferrell and Thomas Bryant didn't have. Nothing to do with motivation.
Click to expand...
Every player/person is just wired differently. Did you hear Jons latest podcast with Deace? I found it interesting where Deace pretty much talked about Uthoff as being 'soft' He and Jon kinda tap danced around it for a min but then Deace pretty much called him that. If you were to watch how he played the 2nd half of this season he really wasn't the same guy since before the Maryland game. He settled for Kingsbury deep 3s way too much. Didn't demand the ball in the clutch/end of clock situations. He's a #1 option talent wise but really would have been better served to be the #2 guy on a team... Nobody wants to criticize him cause he is a good player and very smart and nice kid. But that's not great. There was another level most of us would agree he was capable of getting to that he just for whatever reason didn't get to...
 
Yep, my two boys just finished back to back seasons on their 3rd grade club team. Literally played two seasons from about October to February. I helped two other guys (now friends) coached the team. All 4 boys on both football and basketball teams. I was glad when was done. In addition, have been practicing 9U baseball since the end of January & now getting outside. They go go go. Baseball is $ostly!!
 
Hawkfnntn said:
Every player/person is just wired differently. Did you hear Jons latest podcast with Deace? I found it interesting where Deace pretty much talked about Uthoff as being 'soft' He and Jon kinda tap danced around it for a min but then Deace pretty much called him that. If you were to watch how he played the 2nd half of this season he really wasn't the same guy since before the Maryland game. He settled for Kingsbury deep 3s way too much. Didn't demand the ball in the clutch/end of clock situations. He's a #1 option talent wise but really would have been better served to be the #2 guy on a team... Nobody wants to criticize him cause he is a good player and very smart and nice kid. But that's not great. There was another level most of us would agree he was capable of getting to that he just for whatever reason didn't get to...
Click to expand...

The "soft" label is unfair. Uthoff is not "soft." He's a slender built kid, who is not overly explosive. Of course he has a hard time finishing through contact. It's physical, not mental. Nobody calls Ahmad Wagner soft, well the kid is built like an NFL TE.

The book on Uthoff is easy. Crowd him, because he's not going to blow by you with footspeed, and make him shoot contested jumpers. When he's on the block, just get low and body him, taking advantage of his average lower body strength. Teams simply prepared for him better after Maryland.
 
Whew!!! I thought when I saw the title of this thread that something had happened and that Fran lost his job and would have to figure out how he and his family are going to live on the $46,000 a year income that most Iowa households have to live on. Luckily for him he can continue to squeeze by on the million plus he gets every year. How's our three star recruiting coming along?
 
A couple of random thoughts:


I am in my mid 40's when I was growing up there was a lot less specialization kids played multiple sports. Even the stud athlete, the phenom played multiple sports. I do not have children, but based on what I see from family, friends, co-workers if your kid has any potential at all he or she is specializing in one sport at an early age. And you are doing that basically to keep up with everyone else. Everything is year around now football, baseball, volleyball, wrestling.

I grew up in the Quad Cities and I got exposed to basketball on the Iowa and Illinois side and it was literally night and day. You watch the high school tournament games on the public access channel and you are like holy smokes there is such a big difference in play. My point is that there is A LOT wrong with AAU basketball, but one of the positives of AAU basketball it allows you to travel and gauge your skills against other competition from other parts of the country. Somewhere in the early to mid 90's that gap between Iowa and Illinois basketball got smaller and it was because of AAU basketball these kids from small town Iowa got out and played tougher competition.
 
drew003 said:
The "soft" label is unfair. Uthoff is not "soft." He's a slender built kid, who is not overly explosive. Of course he has a hard time finishing through contact. It's physical, not mental. Nobody calls Ahmad Wagner soft, well the kid is built like an NFL TE.

The book on Uthoff is easy. Crowd him, because he's not going to blow by you with footspeed, and make him shoot contested jumpers. When he's on the block, just get low and body him, taking advantage of his average lower body strength. Teams simply prepared for him better after Maryland.
Click to expand...
Tell me if I'm wrong but I think your defining 'soft' differently then how Deace is. Your only mentioning the physical side of things and that's only a part of it. What I agree with Deace is on the mental side of it too. I don't think he has an 'alpha male' mentality towards playing ball that the really good players have. What separates the talented from the rest? It's their never want to lose or fail mentality no matter what. Uthoff didn't seem to demand the ball in the clutch. The team didn't seem to want to force him the ball when they really needed a bucket either. Be it that's what the coaches wanted or not I don't know. But I think we'd all agree that MG handling the ball at the end of the shot clock/game wasn't their best option. Yet that happened a whole lot. Look I'm not trying to unfairly bash or label him. But I don't think I'm being unfair in sharing Deaces opinion when it comes to assessing his game either... Calling a spade a spade. Put a Wisconsin jersey on him and what would our opinions be?
 
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