Pooker
Well-Known Member
What?
Go back and look when the last WINNING SEASON was BEFORE JHF.
How des that anywhere compare to what Fry inherited versus what he left for Kurt?
Fry vrs KF after 13 years
- Thread starter BigD
- Start date
What?
Go back and look when the last WINNING SEASON was BEFORE JHF.
How des that anywhere compare to what Fry inherited versus what he left for Kurt?
O
OatesStache
Guest
Can you remember a single player from Kirt's first year? There is a reason why that was the worst team Iowa has fielded in the past 40 years.
1977Hawkeye
Well-Known Member
Ladell Betts.
I'm too young to remember the dark years of the 60's and 70's, but I don't see how anyone can argue with a straight face that KIRK inherited a worse situation than when Hayden took the job.
Ferentz inherited a train wreck when he was hired, But at that point, Iowa was just two years removed going to 3 straight bowl games, even despite Hayden slipping towards the end. Hayden took over with 18 straight losing seasons - there is NO comparison as to how the program would have been viewed in 1979 compared to 1999, particularly in the eyes of recruits. How do you recruit to a program that has been horrible the better part of two decades? If you think Fran McCaffery had a tough rebuilding job based on what Lick left behind after just 3 horrible years, then Hayden had it worse.
All of that said, reading the article, Hayden's stats still look a little better than KF's record. But it's close.
KF's legacy is still being written - we will see how he finishes his career at Iowa. He could still surpass Hayden, but he hasn't YET in my opinion.
O
OatesStache
Guest
Who cares what happened the 20 years before each coach took their respective job? All that matters is what team they inherited year one. Haydn had a better team than Kirt, Haydn had an easier schedule than Kirt, and Haydn had more immediate success than Kirt.
1977Hawkeye
Well-Known Member
Are you saying tradition doesn't matter at all? If not, then I have to disagree with you. I believe that, for recruiting purposes if nothing else.
DCRozehawk
Member
As many posters have said, comparing Big Ten records straight up is incredibly misleading. Northwestern and (especially) Wisconsin are totally different teams today than the ones Fry faced. That's not even accounting for the fact that Penn State wasn't a conference opponent for most of Fry's tenure...and now Ferentz has Nebraska to deal with going forward.
It's also worth noting that while Ferentz is somewhat behind Fry after 13 years, Ferentz has an opportunity to make up ground if he hangs around for seven more seasons. Fry was a great coach from 1981-1991, but with the exception of 1996 and, to an extent, 1995, his final seven seasons from 1992-1998 were largely a bust. And even that fine 1996 season included a loss to Tulsa.
Finally, bear in mind that you're comparing Ferentz to Saint Hayden Fry. Hayden is revered by the Hawkeye fanbase, yet there seems to be a lot of critics wanting to tear down Ferentz...even though their resumes are more similar than many Fry fans care to admit. Many critics are basically slamming Ferentz because he has come up a bit short in some areas of the record put together by an Iowa icon and a College Football Hall of Famer. Just something to consider.
It's also worth noting that while Ferentz is somewhat behind Fry after 13 years, Ferentz has an opportunity to make up ground if he hangs around for seven more seasons. Fry was a great coach from 1981-1991, but with the exception of 1996 and, to an extent, 1995, his final seven seasons from 1992-1998 were largely a bust. And even that fine 1996 season included a loss to Tulsa.
Finally, bear in mind that you're comparing Ferentz to Saint Hayden Fry. Hayden is revered by the Hawkeye fanbase, yet there seems to be a lot of critics wanting to tear down Ferentz...even though their resumes are more similar than many Fry fans care to admit. Many critics are basically slamming Ferentz because he has come up a bit short in some areas of the record put together by an Iowa icon and a College Football Hall of Famer. Just something to consider.
SpiderRico
Well-Known Member
This thread is a perfect example of why it's nearly impossible to come to this site anymore....
The OP throws up a pretty decent article to debate the first 13 years of HF and KF's tenure. So what happens?
The first poster throws out a pithy one liner about each one's Rose Bowl stats (knowing full well that KF's teams haven't been there yet), but doesn't debate the merits/faults of either man's first 13 years.
The second poster completely disrespects the head coach of what, I assume, is his favorite team given the site he's on by calling him Kurt.
The third poster throws out a one liner about Pat Harty.
The fourth poster, finally, attempts to debate the second poster concerning the lack of Rose Bowl's in KF's tenure.
But for his efforts, the 5 poster bashes him for giving in to the 2nd posters "troll attempt".
At that point, I just stopped reading as it was obvious there was absolutely no intelligent discussion about the article....just a bunch of posters attempting (pathetically) to be comedians and completely derailing the thread.
I did finally see someone try to say that OSU would have made the Rose Bowl in 2002 under the old rules, claiming that overall record was the second tie-breaker under the old system after head-to-head. Apparently, he forgot the rule that if there was a tie in conference record and there was no head to head, the next tie breaker was the "last to go". So since OSU went to the Rose Bowl more recently than Iowa, that Iowa would have went.
The point here is that there's really no point in coming to this site anymore since this thread represents the norm anymore for what this site has become.
The OP throws up a pretty decent article to debate the first 13 years of HF and KF's tenure. So what happens?
The first poster throws out a pithy one liner about each one's Rose Bowl stats (knowing full well that KF's teams haven't been there yet), but doesn't debate the merits/faults of either man's first 13 years.
The second poster completely disrespects the head coach of what, I assume, is his favorite team given the site he's on by calling him Kurt.
The third poster throws out a one liner about Pat Harty.
The fourth poster, finally, attempts to debate the second poster concerning the lack of Rose Bowl's in KF's tenure.
But for his efforts, the 5 poster bashes him for giving in to the 2nd posters "troll attempt".
At that point, I just stopped reading as it was obvious there was absolutely no intelligent discussion about the article....just a bunch of posters attempting (pathetically) to be comedians and completely derailing the thread.
I did finally see someone try to say that OSU would have made the Rose Bowl in 2002 under the old rules, claiming that overall record was the second tie-breaker under the old system after head-to-head. Apparently, he forgot the rule that if there was a tie in conference record and there was no head to head, the next tie breaker was the "last to go". So since OSU went to the Rose Bowl more recently than Iowa, that Iowa would have went.
The point here is that there's really no point in coming to this site anymore since this thread represents the norm anymore for what this site has become.
ChosenChildren
Well-Known Member
Hey, the good news is that we have had a 33 year run with the Fox and Captain Kirk. It has been a load of fun and there have been 5 Big Ten titles, several runnerup conference finishes, 5 BCS level bowl games and 24 bowl games in total!!! That is pretty amazing when you think about it.
I think Kirk is building again - I'm hoping for a minor bowl game this year and better things in 2013 and 2014. Keep the faith!
I sat through all of those 20 consecutive losing seasons before Hayden took over. It was a coaching graveyard in many respects. The job Hayden did still goes down as one of the most amazing coaching jobs in the history of college football. Hayden is in the College Football Hall of Fame for a reason. Ferentz will be there someday too.
I think Kirk is building again - I'm hoping for a minor bowl game this year and better things in 2013 and 2014. Keep the faith!
I sat through all of those 20 consecutive losing seasons before Hayden took over. It was a coaching graveyard in many respects. The job Hayden did still goes down as one of the most amazing coaching jobs in the history of college football. Hayden is in the College Football Hall of Fame for a reason. Ferentz will be there someday too.
bighawkeyedaddy
Well-Known Member
Are we seriously going to have another stupid argument over which one of our 2 great coaches were better? Less than a week from the kickoff of the season and this is what we want to talk about? They were both great, end of discussion.
ChosenChildren
Well-Known Member
Actually, if you break through the sarcasm, there is some analysis here.
I think, bottom line, that they are both great coaches. Ferentz took over for Hayden and built on what Hayden had done. Remember, if you go back through history, it has always been tough for Iowa to compete in the Big Ten. Fry and Ferentz made Iowa football fun and relevant again. About the only thing they haven't accomplished is a national title. I don't know if that will happen again at Iowa, but having 4 teams in a playoff (instead of 2) just increased Iowa's chances of making the playoff by 100%!
1977Hawkeye
Well-Known Member
Yep. I would say that Hayden put Iowa Football on the map after a couple of dismal records, and KF has KEPT it on the map. Both coaches have earned their accolades.
As Chosen pointed out, we've had a pretty good 30+ year run of football with just two coaches. Now THAT is continuity and stability. Born in '77, my lifetime has been full of pretty darned solid Iowa Football, with only a couple of short rough patches.
Well said...very tired of all the ridiculous posting some feel obligated to do in each an every thread. Very little real discussion or debate with actual relevance and interest.
Back to the thread, the argument that NW and Wisky were awful and are reasons why Hayden has such a better record in B1G games only vs KF...would hold more weight if KF beat his own cream puffs on a regular basis. Need we only point to the last two losses to Minnesota, both of those teams were horrendous yet we lost to them. It has become the norm for KF teams to lose to at least 1 or 2 bad teams a year, that almost everyone on this board is predicting losses to a down NW team or a loss at what will be at best 4-8 Indy.
I hope that KF's next 7 years prove to be an amazing ride, full of great Hawk victories and multiple B1G championships, but through their first 13 Fry's B1G record certainly stands out in comparison.
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DuffMan
Well-Known Member
SpiderRico
Well-Known Member
Case in point....
BigD
Well-Known Member
In my humble opinion I have to give the edge to coach Fry. I truly hope that ten years from now we are all in agreement that Kirk has exceeded coach Fry in achievements meaning that I would love to see the program go onto even greater achievements than Kirk has already achieved. A final four in the championship series would be wonderful and I hope to see it happen. They are both great coaches.
DuffMan
Well-Known Member
dont blame others you dont understand whats going on.
Puttman
Well-Known Member
SpiderRico
Well-Known Member
I understand perfectly what's going on.
Unfortunately, it appears you didn't as you got yourself banned.
So remind me again.....who doesn't understand what's going on?
As to the topic at hand, there has been so much change in college football since Hayden coached and retired that it does get difficult to compare. But given that, here's my two cents worth:
1. Hayden did a much better job at beating the teams he should beat compared to Ferentz.
2. Ferentz has done a better job of upseting teams than Hayden did.
3. Hayden recruited better than Ferentz has, but Ferentz has done a better job of getting the most out of his talent.
4. Personally, I enjoyed Hayden's approach to assistants better than I have Ferentz's. But Hayden's only works when you're able to replace the talent that leaves with equal or better talent. He wasn't able to do this in his later years.
5. Hayden played better out of conference teams, but Ferentz has had a tougher conference to contend with.
6. Fry's teams finished better in conference (3 firsts, 2 seconds and 4 thirds) his first 13 years than Ferentz has (2 firsts, 1 second and 1 third).
All in all, I'd give the edge to Hayden, simply because he had more to overcome when he arrived....lack of facilities, lack of a winning culture, lack of a national brand, etc. Ferentz has had the fortune of taking over what Hayden put into place, plus having the benefit of exposure via ESPN, BTN and other national media outlets. This has allowed more money to flow into athletic department coffers which in turn has given him top flight facilities, a completely renovated stadium and other things which has helped to narrow the recruiting disadvantages.
In all actuality, I'd say that given the additional funding available and all the other advantages that Hayden put into place, I'd say that we've probably slightly underperformed during Ferentz's tenure. Not by much, but only 4 top 3 finishes in 13 years is probably under what should be expected.
