Fran's Grade after 5 years

1977Hawkeye said:
Guys, you can't have results or year to year continuity without good recruiting, and in my mind, that all starts with the ability to evaluate talent and fill whatever needs you have with quality players, and it ends with sealing the deal and getting a commitment. We only have one true post player for next year, so Fran hasn't quite done all he can in the recruiting department.

I think Fran is doing an excellent job overall, but I can't give him an A+ across the board because of the unfilled needs we currently have in the front court. Sorry. Now if he goes out and finds a good big guy that can come in and contribute right away next year, I will change my opinion here, but I have to go with what we know as of right now.

Obviously coaching is crucial - there are several coaches that can recruit but just don't get the results (Rick Barnes, Tom Crean, etc.) but IMO, you need to recruit AND be able to coach if you expect to win consistently. You can be the greatest coach in the world, but if you're failing to properly evaluate recruits and aren't bringing in players with adequate talent, there's only so much success you're going to have.

I agree, in the end, it's the results that count, but it's hard to get results without good personnel to go out and win for you.
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I'm not at all worried about our recruiting or next year. I have every confidence that Fran has assembled a roster with every intention of winning games next year and playing in the NCAA Tournament. We're not always going to have the size in the front court we had this year. But that doesn't mean the guys on next year's roster can't compete in the paint or win.
 
I'm so curious about the last kid to commit. Fran knows we need bigs and he signs a guy who plays a position that we don't have a need for. Fran always says that he will always take the best available player. It really makes me think Fran thinks he is better than the guys already commited.
 
"Mexican Americans go to night school and take Spanish and get a B"...said in Cheech Marin hispanic accent. I would agree with the B grade.

I had an A out there for him, but the defensive game plan against Gonzaga changed my mind. So you have two critical 3 point shooters to defend, Wiltjer and Pangos. Explain to me how they go 5-6 in the first 7 minutes from 3. That's freaking ridiculous. How do you leave guys wide open all night going to the basket...defensive lapses. Fran should be embarrassed is what Fran should be. That was atrocious coaching and game planning. There should have been two defenders who had one job...crawling inside the Jock of those two Zags. the other three play team defense...those two get men in their shorts. I just don't get it.
 
1977Hawkeye said:
Guys, you can't have results or year to year continuity without good recruiting, and in my mind, that all starts with the ability to evaluate talent and fill whatever needs you have with quality players, and it ends with sealing the deal and getting a commitment. We only have one true post player for next year, so Fran hasn't quite done all he can in the recruiting department.

I think Fran is doing an excellent job overall, but I can't give him an A+ across the board because of the unfilled needs we currently have in the front court. Sorry. Now if he goes out and finds a good big guy that can come in and contribute right away next year, I will change my opinion here, but I have to go with what we know as of right now.

Obviously coaching is crucial - there are several coaches that can recruit but just don't get the results (Rick Barnes, Tom Crean, etc.) but IMO, you need to recruit AND be able to coach if you expect to win consistently. You can be the greatest coach in the world, but if you're failing to properly evaluate recruits and aren't bringing in players with adequate talent, there's only so much success you're going to have.

I agree, in the end, it's the results that count, but it's hard to get results without good personnel to go out and win for you.
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How would you grade Bo Ryan over the same last 5 years? Just curious as he has signed 15 3* kids, 2 4* and a 5*. If you knock off grades for Fran because of his recruiting (2 4* & 16 3*) then you have to do the same about Bo, right? I mean how could a program actually get better each year with recruiting results like Bo or Fran????

Lets compare that to Illinois who has signed 14 4* players and 7 3* players in that same 5 years. Lets give that program a A +++++ cause they are killing it recruiting!!!

I get that we all get more pumped if Fran brings in a Woody and Gesell in a class, but haven't we had enough evidence to show us all that a Marble, White ends up being >>>> a Gesell and Woody, and isn't the point getting good players, not good * rankings? You are correct, you don't keep getting better each year, and sustain that success without good players. * rankings don't determine what good players are though, in the end it is determined by their play on the court.
 
WinOneThisCentury said:
I had an A out there for him, but the defensive game plan against Gonzaga changed my mind. So you have two critical 3 point shooters to defend, Wiltjer and Pangos. Explain to me how they go 5-6 in the first 7 minutes from 3. That's freaking ridiculous. How do you leave guys wide open all night going to the basket...defensive lapses. Fran should be embarrassed is what Fran should be. That was atrocious coaching and game planning. There should have been two defenders who had one job...crawling inside the Jock of those two Zags. the other three play team defense...those two get men in their shorts. I just don't get it.
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So because you don't like how 7 minutes of the last game went Fran drops an entire grade? Hey kid you had an A in my class but I really don't like how you answered the first 7 questions on today's 40 question test. I've decided to disregard your work up to this point and drop you from an A to a B.
 
deanvogs said:
How would you grade Bo Ryan over the same last 5 years? Just curious as he has signed 15 3* kids, 2 4* and a 5*. If you knock off grades for Fran because of his recruiting (2 4* & 16 3*) then you have to do the same about Bo, right? I mean how could a program actually get better each year with recruiting results like Bo or Fran????

Lets compare that to Illinois who has signed 14 4* players and 7 3* players in that same 5 years. Lets give that program a A +++++ cause they are killing it recruiting!!!

I get that we all get more pumped if Fran brings in a Woody and Gesell in a class, but haven't we had enough evidence to show us all that a Marble, White ends up being >>>> a Gesell and Woody, and isn't the point getting good players, not good * rankings? You are correct, you don't keep getting better each year, and sustain that success without good players. * rankings don't determine what good players are though, in the end it is determined by their play on the court.
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You are right, the rankings are not all that matters and you mention a great example in Bo Ryan. I give Fran a lot of credit for recruiting Aaron White and Roy Marble. While Woodbury is everyone's favorite whipping boy I still consider he and Gesell's recruitment a success for Fran. But for every Aaron White there is a Ingram, Meyer, and Hubbard (ect ect). I know this years team was a veteran team but I found it discouraging that out of the 3 players Fran brought in last year only Uhl played significant minutes. I like Fran but he is not on the level of Bo Ryan *yet* in either finding the right players for his system or developing them, I say that despite all the recent success he has had. We are all hoping he has found some talent in this big class he has brought in, Fran is getting to the point where he cannot afford too many more swings-and-misses.
 
ssckelley said:
You are right, the rankings are not all that matters and you mention a great example in Bo Ryan. I give Fran a lot of credit for recruiting Aaron White and Roy Marble. While Woodbury is everyone's favorite whipping boy I still consider he and Gesell's recruitment a success for Fran. But for every Aaron White there is a Ingram, Meyer, and Hubbard (ect ect). I know this years team was a veteran team but I found it discouraging that out of the 3 players Fran brought in last year only Uhl played significant minutes. I like Fran but he is not on the level of Bo Ryan *yet* in either finding the right players for his system or developing them, I say that despite all the recent success he has had. We are all hoping he has found some talent in this big class he has brought in, Fran is getting to the point where he cannot afford too many more swings-and-misses.
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In no way was I trying to say Fran = Bo, he obviously doesn't. I just meant you don't have to score 4* after 4* to improve and sustain a winning program. I would love to see more 4* kids, don't get me wrong, as the success % as you point out is greater for players as you get higher ranked kids. I'm just saying that when you grade results, why look at a kids * ranking from HS, when he proved his worth (good or bad) on the court. Grade the results, not what others told you a player was before he even played.
 
deanvogs said:
How would you grade Bo Ryan over the same last 5 years? Just curious as he has signed 15 3* kids, 2 4* and a 5*. If you knock off grades for Fran because of his recruiting (2 4* & 16 3*) then you have to do the same about Bo, right? I mean how could a program actually get better each year with recruiting results like Bo or Fran????

Lets compare that to Illinois who has signed 14 4* players and 7 3* players in that same 5 years. Lets give that program a A +++++ cause they are killing it recruiting!!!

I get that we all get more pumped if Fran brings in a Woody and Gesell in a class, but haven't we had enough evidence to show us all that a Marble, White ends up being >>>> a Gesell and Woody, and isn't the point getting good players, not good * rankings? You are correct, you don't keep getting better each year, and sustain that success without good players. * rankings don't determine what good players are though, in the end it is determined by their play on the court.
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I'm not talking about star ratings. I'm talking about the fact that we have unfilled needs in the front court heading into next season. Therefore, I can't give Fran an A/A+ rating overall, because I feel that recruiting for whatever needs you have is a part of the job.

Some will obviously disagree, but I think our general lack of size/front court presence and depth in that area is going to be a negative factor next year. I hope to be wrong.

As I said originally, I still give him a B+/A- rating though, which ain't bad. I still think he's done a good job. That doesn't mean recruiting doesn't have a bit of room for improvement.
 
ssckelley said:
I know this years team was a veteran team but I found it discouraging that out of the 3 players Fran brought in last year only Uhl played significant minutes.
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To be fair it's 1 out of 2 since Ellingson had to RS due to injury. And Dickerson was an insurance policy IMO. Fran didn't know that Clemmons was going to recommit himself to basketball. I suspect Dickerson gets Clemmons minutes if sophomore Clemmons effort shows up this year instead of freshman Clemmons effort.
 
1977Hawkeye said:
I'm not talking about star ratings. I'm talking about the fact that we have unfilled needs in the front court heading into next season. Therefore, I can't give Fran an A/A+ rating overall, because I feel that recruiting for whatever needs you have is a part of the job.

Some will obviously disagree, but I think our general lack of size/front court presence and depth in that area is going to be a negative factor next year. I hope to be wrong.

As I said originally, I still give him a B+/A- rating though, which ain't bad. I still think he's done a good job. That doesn't mean recruiting doesn't have a bit of room for improvement.
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Fair enough, I have a tendency to overreact, and I think I did in your case, as this seems much more mild that what I thought you were saying. :p
 
deanvogs said:
Fair enough, I have a tendency to overreact, and I think I did in your case, as this seems much more mild that what I thought you were saying. :p
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No worries! I may also not have done a good job of getting across the point I was trying to make. I tend to get long-winded, and the point may get lost.

Let me also say that if Fran can find a good big guy that can contribute next year, that I would also be happy to bump the grade I've given him. :)
 
WindsorHawk said:
To be fair it's 1 out of 2 since Ellingson had to RS due to injury. And Dickerson was an insurance policy IMO. Fran didn't know that Clemmons was going to recommit himself to basketball. I suspect Dickerson gets Clemmons minutes if sophomore Clemmons effort shows up this year instead of freshman Clemmons effort.
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Good point, I did not realize he got hurt. But isn't Dickerson transferring?
 
ssckelley said:
Good point, I did not realize he got hurt. But isn't Dickerson transferring?
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Yep, I believe that's already a done deal. Dickerson was pretty much last guy off the bench this year - he was a miss. He may well have been an "insurance policy" but I'll wager Fran had hopes of him playing significant minutes, especially in 2016-17 once Gesell & Clemmons are gone.
 
ssckelley said:
Good point, I did not realize he got hurt. But isn't Dickerson transferring?
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Yes, Dickerson is transferring. But I think Dickerson would have been the backup to Gesell if Clemmons hadn't come back with a different mindset this year than he had last year. I think he would have at least gotten more opportunities. What do you think?

Side Note - When Fran addressed Dickerson's transfer he had nothing but good things to say and that he (Fran) would do anything he could to help him (Dickerson). He also mentioned that Dickerson has a lot of work to do in the classroom to have all options available to him. Reading between the lines I don't think Dickerson was going to be eligible at Iowa 1st semester next year.
 
1977Hawkeye said:
Yep, I believe that's already a done deal. Dickerson was pretty much last guy off the bench this year - he was a miss. He may well have been an "insurance policy" but I'll wager Fran had hopes of him playing significant minutes, especially in 2016-17 once Gesell & Clemmons are gone.
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I'm pretty sure Dickerson wasn't taking care of the academic side of things. This may have contributed to his minutes among other things. I'm speculating based on comments made by Fran...reading between the lines.
 
I just cannot judge Fran because I hasn't lose any recruits to transfer because of his plays. Remember Matt Gatens threaten to transfer If the coach stays too long. I believe we have the best possible coaches. I think his job is safe.
 
PCHawk said:
This is pretty much where I'm at. If a couple recuits next year look like they can be really good I'll be convinced without a doubt that he has what it takes to keep us good. If they are all Clemmons type players (hard to type that without being offensive but it is what it is) then we might end up a program that dances half the time. I highly doubt the latter is the case.
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We're begging for a "Clemmons type player" and the former IS the case. ;)
 
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