Ferentz vs. Fry

[ohhawk]

With Ferentz in the cross hairs of some right now I thought some comparisons (using only W & L's / bowls incl.) might be interesting:

* Both coaches entered Iowa programs with marginal talent initially and turned things around in a relatively short period of time. By the third year each had moved into above .500 performance and continued on to a some very good seasons following with Fry beginning his longest streak of 8 wins or more seasons as noted below.

* One of the biggest differences in my mind between each of their performances has been that Fry put together a streak of 7 years in a row of attaining 8 wins or more. The best 8 wins or more streak Ferentz has obtained is 3 years in a row.

* How many years has each coach roamed in the 5-7 win category? Fry in 7 of his 20 years. Ferentz in 7 of his 18 years thus far....... includes this year assuming a finish in the 5-7 win range.

* How many years has each had 4 wins or less? Fry 2 (his 2nd year and his last). Ferentz 3 (2 were in his first two years).

* Fry attained 11 seasons with 8 wins or more in 20 years at Iowa. Ferentz has had 8 in his 18 years.

* Bowl games.........Fry 14 bowl games winning 6 with one tie. Ferentz 13 bowl games winning 6.

* Overall winning % at Iowa...........Fry 61.6%, Ferentz 59%
______________________________________________________

It's not totally apples to apples as Fry worked under 11 game seasons for the most part and Ferentz has enjoyed an extra game on the schedule most years. To offset that one might say that college football has only become more competitive since the Fry days with the growing emphasis on winning and all that comes with it......$$$$. If wins and losses are the bottom line I would say there is more in common between the two than not. Fry had a longer run of notable win seasons from '81-'91 where he won 8 or more games in all but two years. He found a way to keep momentum. That's been more difficult for Ferentz.

 

[STLhawkeye20]

I think we should mention for posterity that Ferentz' 59% winning percentage includes the astounding number of cupcake teams he's scheduled in the non-conference and all of the favorable B1G years he's had as well in terms of avoiding the blue bloods.

 

[lightning1]

KF can't carry Hayden Fry's jock strap when it comes to coaching. Fry wanted future HC's on his staff and he had to deal with a lot of turnover because of that philosophy. We've all seen how bad KF is at replacing quality assistant coaches.

 

[ArvadaHawk]

With Ferentz in the cross hairs of some right now I thought some comparisons (using only W & L's / bowls incl.) might be interesting:

* Both coaches entered Iowa programs with marginal talent initially and turned things around in a relatively short period of time. By the third year each had moved into above .500 performance and continued on to a some very good seasons following with Fry beginning his longest streak of 8 wins or more seasons as noted below.

* One of the biggest differences in my mind between each of their performances has been that Fry put together a streak of 7 years in a row of attaining 8 wins or more. The best 8 wins or more streak Ferentz has obtained is 3 years in a row.

* How many years has each coach roamed in the 5-7 win category? Fry in 7 of his 20 years. Ferentz in 7 of his 18 years thus far....... includes this year assuming a finish in the 5-7 win range.

* How many years has each had 4 wins or less? Fry 2 (his 2nd year and his last). Ferentz 3 (2 were in his first two years).

* Fry attained 11 seasons with 8 wins or more in 20 years at Iowa. Ferentz has had 8 in his 18 years.

* Bowl games.........Fry 14 bowl games winning 6 with one tie. Ferentz 13 bowl games winning 6.

* Overall winning % at Iowa...........Fry 61.6%, Ferentz 59%
______________________________________________________

It's not totally apples to apples as Fry worked under 11 game seasons for the most part and Ferentz has enjoyed an extra game on the schedule most years. To offset that one might say that college football has only become more competitive since the Fry days with the growing emphasis on winning and all that comes with it......$$$$. If wins and losses are the bottom line I would say there is more in common between the two than not. Fry had a longer run of notable win seasons from '81-'91 where he won 8 or more games in all but two years. He found a way to keep momentum. That's been more difficult for Ferentz.

I can give you an apples to apples comparison. In 17.75 seasons, ferentz has more losses than Fry accumulated in 20 seasons.

 

[tksirius]

Ferentz only averaged 7 wins in an era where teams played 12 and/or 13 games a season. Those that believe kirk is a better coach than Fry must be extremely biased or just plain dumb.

 

[NickM]

They have both done great things for the program. That said if you are going to compare them, Ferentz has had several more seasons with 12 regular season games. Presumably if Fry played 12 regular season games the 12th game would have been against a cupcake. You have to adjust Fry's average wins per season to reflect almost a full win per year. I think the biggest aggravating thing about Ferentz, especially as compared to Fry, is that it just feels like Ferentz has left a lot more winnable games on the table than Fry did. Also, I recall even when Fry lost games, you felt like he emptied the holster to try to get the win. When is the last time you walked away from a Ferentz loss thinking he pulled out all the stops to try to get the win? Fry's problems began with his inability to get a QB after Rodgers graduated. That began a series Fry recruiting Iowa born QBS. Not trying to knock the Iowa kids (I'm from Iowa), but after Rodgers left Iowa didn't start an All Big 10 caliber QB until Brad Banks!

 

[trj]

I think KF had an opportunity to blow this debate out the water.....make it a no brainer. There is too many bad losses, too much yuck that I can't give him the nod over Hayden.

 

[hawkeyes87]

I never watched a Hayden team and thought "this is the most boring football team I've ever seen"

 

[ohhawk]

The thread is not about trying to support Ferentz or not it's simply comparing the win loss records (only) over the years. It's also not about comparing hiring, coaching, play calling, and other parts of the job.

Just found the comparison interesting when looking into it from a W/L perspective only. Also walked away from their respective records realizing that momentum has been more difficult for one coach to maintain vs. the other.

 

[hwk23]

I think KF had an opportunity to blow this debate out the water.....make it a no brainer. There is too many bad losses, too much yuck that I can't give him the nod over Hayden.

Hayden Fry changed the whole culture of Iowa football. That win over Michigan is still the best win in Iowa history so I don't see the debate being blown out of the water in any case. Michigan finished #2 and would have been NC if it wasn't for the loss to Iowa. Would have loved a 4 team playoff that year. The way it was with #1 Penn State against #3 Oklahoma, Iowa had little chance. The Big Ten was at such a disadvantage.

 

[HawkeyeWalker]

Ferentz only averaged 7 wins in an era where teams played 12 and/or 13 games a season. Those that believe kirk is a better coach than Fry must be extremely biased or just plain dumb.

There can't possibly be any Hawkeye fans that think KF is a better than Fry. except Barta maybe.

 

[deanvogs]

First off Fry is a LEGEND, and turning around the program like he did can't be undervalued. His first 9 years at Iowa were simply incredible. It took him 2 years to turn around the program, and then after that it was 7 straight years of amazing results. Every year for 7 in a row was 8 wins or more, with 7 straight Bowl games, 2 Rose Bowl appearances, and 6 of those 7 years ending the season ranked in the top 20.

His last 11 years were completely different though. Some of the Fry slappys on here would have been his biggest critics in his last 11 years at Iowa. If Fry lived in the internet/social media days, he would be lambasted by the same toxic crowd that blasts KF. Lets look at Fry's and KF last 11 years.

In Fry's his last 11 years he ended the season ranked 4 times and had 1 Rose bowl appearance. Fry had 6 years with 6 wins or less 6, 5, 5, 6, 5, & 3. He had (1) 7 win season. So basically it was 7 years of 7 wins or less.

KF last 11 years has looked similar. 3 top 20 finishes and 2 BCS bowl games. He has had 3 seasons with 6 wins or less, but (3) 7 win season (and another heading our way of 7 wins or less). So I think after this year (just like Fry) Kirk will have 7 seasons of 7 wins or less in his last 11 years.

So if you are pissed off and hate KF, odds are you would feel the same about Hayden Fry's last 11 years if he lived through a internet and social media age like Kirk is doing.

 

[HawkMD2007]

Both Hayden and Kirk tailed off at the end of their careers....Opps. I forgot KF still has ten more to go. Thanks Gary B.

 

[hawkdrummer1]

Hayden Fry changed the whole culture of Iowa football.......

Not only Iowa football, but the Big Ten itself. The idea that Fry and Ferentz walked into "similar circumstances" is laughable. Each needed to refill the talent pipeline, that is true. But Hayden did a hell of a lot more than recruit some players. As mentioned above...he changed the entire landscape in more ways than one can cover in a HN post.

History isn't taught as robustly as it used to be, so it's not surprising that most under 40 don't grasp the magnitude of what Fry was facing when he took the job in 1979.

Kirk had to refresh the program, for sure. But he had some pretty big shoulders to stand on while he did it, and a brand with plenty of value to leverage

 

[NickM]

Let us also not forget that Hayden (and Mr. Davis and C. Viv.) all had to deal with Voldamort a.k.a. Hunter Rawlings who tried to destroy Iowa athletics. Rawlings literally told Fry during warm ups of a season opening that Vernon Rollins (Iowa's best defender) could not play because he supposedly did not perform satisfactorily in a summer course. Rawling sent Iowa athletics back several years.

 

[HawkGold]

They have both done great things for the program. That said if you are going to compare them, Ferentz has had several more seasons with 12 regular season games. Presumably if Fry played 12 regular season games the 12th game would have been against a cupcake. You have to adjust Fry's average wins per season to reflect almost a full win per year. I think the biggest aggravating thing about Ferentz, especially as compared to Fry, is that it just feels like Ferentz has left a lot more winnable games on the table than Fry did. Also, I recall even when Fry lost games, you felt like he emptied the holster to try to get the win. When is the last time you walked away from a Ferentz loss thinking he pulled out all the stops to try to get the win? Fry's problems began with his inability to get a QB after Rodgers graduated. That began a series Fry recruiting Iowa born QBS. Not trying to knock the Iowa kids (I'm from Iowa), but after Rodgers left Iowa didn't start an All Big 10 caliber QB until Brad Banks!

I would disagree about Jim Hartlieb minus the injuries.

I agree mostly with the other comments with a few side notes. At the risk of criticism of memory, Fry was adverse to throwing down the middle. Also, he did go to the Prevent Defense a lot, which prevented a few more wins.

But yes, in most years there was an optimism as a fan that Iowa could be most anyone in most years. That hasn't been the consistent case with KF. The 00's are forgiveable and probably normal ebb and flow of a non elite program. The real issue is 2010 on with of course one big exception of how to process what happened in 2012, both the good and the bad.

 

[MelroseHawkins]

I never watched a Hayden team and thought "this is the most boring football team I've ever seen"

Yep, there was never the "Why do we not get quality receivers every year?".

 

[MelroseHawkins]

First off Fry is a LEGEND, and turning around the program like he did can't be undervalued. His first 9 years at Iowa were simply incredible. It took him 2 years to turn around the program, and then after that it was 7 straight years of amazing results. Every year for 7 in a row was 8 wins or more, with 7 straight Bowl games, 2 Rose Bowl appearances, and 6 of those 7 years ending the season ranked in the top 20.

His last 11 years were completely different though. Some of the Fry slappys on here would have been his biggest critics in his last 11 years at Iowa. If Fry lived in the internet/social media days, he would be lambasted by the same toxic crowd that blasts KF. Lets look at Fry's and KF last 11 years.

In Fry's his last 11 years he ended the season ranked 4 times and had 1 Rose bowl appearance. Fry had 6 years with 6 wins or less 6, 5, 5, 6, 5, & 3. He had (1) 7 win season. So basically it was 7 years of 7 wins or less.

KF last 11 years has looked similar. 3 top 20 finishes and 2 BCS bowl games. He has had 3 seasons with 6 wins or less, but (3) 7 win season (and another heading our way of 7 wins or less). So I think after this year (just like Fry) Kirk will have 7 seasons of 7 wins or less in his last 11 years.

So if you are pissed off and hate KF, odds are you would feel the same about Hayden Fry's last 11 years if he lived through a internet and social media age like Kirk is doing.

Good point.

 

[MelroseHawkins]

Not only Iowa football, but the Big Ten itself. The idea that Fry and Ferentz walked into "similar circumstances" is laughable. Each needed to refill the talent pipeline, that is true. But Hayden did a hell of a lot more than recruit some players. As mentioned above...he changed the entire landscape in more ways than one can cover in a HN post.

History isn't taught as robustly as it used to be, so it's not surprising that most under 40 don't grasp the magnitude of what Fry was facing when he took the job in 1979.

Kirk had to refresh the program, for sure. But he had some pretty big shoulders to stand on while he did it, and a brand with plenty of value to leverage

Yes, Fry took over a program that didn't have a winning season in 17 years! I don't know if the young fans realize the magnitude of that. 17 YEARS!!

 

[Xerxes]

I think Fry overall had better offenses. KF fielded better defenses.

There were times when Fry's defense was laughable. Particularly against Ohio St, Penn St, Michigans, etc. And his teams, even some of his good teams, got embarrassed because of it.
But he always had good players on the field. Many times he played good backup RBs at WR to get them on the field. Harmon, Saunders, & Dwight to name a few. And if you're going to have a FB out there, use him for more than just being a 3rd guard. Fry was a master at that.
Fry also neglected special teams in the mid point of his career. FG kicking and punting were major issues in the late 80s and early 90s and cost Iowa dearly.

KF's offenses have largely been a joke, particularly since KOK left, which is interesting because early on in his tenure (2001-2005) Iowa fielded good offenses even when injuries took their toll.
His defenses however have made Iowa competitive on a national level. In 5 seasons 2002, 2003, 2004, 2008, 2009 Iowa put defenses on the field that could have played with any team in the nation. Each one led by a DL that could have doubled as brick walls.
IMO his tenure will be marked by poor hires, particularly when his original OC/DC were solid/great hires. Both of their replacements have really hurt the team.