Cokers response leads one to believe

[imported_ankle23]

So you think these men should remain virginal and never invite women over?

Advice for the men who would have a higher propensity of being accused of this so as to become a mark in a civil suit - carry a consent form. Make her sign it. Protect yourself against criminal laws and the litigious American civil tort system.

And to the women in these situations, if you don't want all-star meat, don't go to the all-star suite (or the bathroom in Big Ben's case). Don't be naive, these guys aren't inviting you over to talk about hair, makeup and the latest articles in Cosmo. Again, I don't mean to sound callous or stereotypical, but I suspect when a Mike Tyson, Kobe Bryant or other major all-star is inviting some random gal to his motel room, in 99.999% of cases, he's got one thing on his mind and I think that 99.999% of women out there are smart enough to know this. Timbow is the .0001% guy - you can go to his suite.

i would advise you to include A.C. Green in this reponse going forward.

 

[MNHawkeyeFreak]

I think OK4P's point is that this is a pretty unknowable statistic. Therefore it makes it vulnerable to exageration. I don't think we have any idea what the true numbers are.

I was kind of pointing out that it was an unknowable stat. I've never heard that it was 1 of 4. Without knowing the study that came up with that stat, and without knowing all the variables of how they defined sexual assault, The age range of the participants, etc., you just don't know much.

Stats for anything can be skewed depending on the question asked.

 

[MNHawkeyeFreak]

So you think these men should remain virginal and never invite women over?

Advice for the men who would have a higher propensity of being accused of this so as to become a mark in a civil suit - carry a consent form. Make her sign it. Protect yourself against criminal laws and the litigious American civil tort system.

And to the women in these situations, if you don't want all-star meat, don't go to the all-star suite (or the bathroom in Big Ben's case). Don't be naive, these guys aren't inviting you over to talk about hair, makeup and the latest articles in Cosmo. Again, I don't mean to sound callous or stereotypical, but I suspect when a Mike Tyson, Kobe Bryant or other major all-star is inviting some random gal to his motel room, in 99.999% of cases, he's got one thing on his mind and I think that 99.999% of women out there are smart enough to know this. Timbow is the .0001% guy - you can go to his suite.

I agree with this. Can somebody put this on a team shirt? "if you don't want all-star meat, don't go to the all-star suite"

 

[tm3308]

So you think these men should remain virginal and never invite women over?

Advice for the men who would have a higher propensity of being accused of this so as to become a mark in a civil suit - carry a consent form. Make her sign it. Protect yourself against criminal laws and the litigious American civil tort system.

And to the women in these situations, if you don't want all-star meat, don't go to the all-star suite (or the bathroom in Big Ben's case). Don't be naive, these guys aren't inviting you over to talk about hair, makeup and the latest articles in Cosmo. Again, I don't mean to sound callous or stereotypical, but I suspect when a Mike Tyson, Kobe Bryant or other major all-star is inviting some random gal to his motel room, in 99.999% of cases, he's got one thing on his mind and I think that 99.999% of women out there are smart enough to know this. Timbow is the .0001% guy - you can go to his suite.

Telling them to be abstinent is never going to work. I think the point is that they shouldn't be getting some strange. If they want to get a girlfriend and do whatever, fine. But bringing home girls you barely know after a night out is usually not a good idea. And there are a lot of players who do that. The word around Iowa City, even at the start of the year, was that Coker gets around quite a bit, though he was a little smarter about it than others.

 

[imported_ankle23]

Telling them to be abstinent is never going to work. I think the point is that they shouldn't be getting some strange. If they want to get a girlfriend and do whatever, fine. But bringing home girls you barely know after a night out is usually not a good idea. And there are a lot of players who do that. The word around Iowa City, even at the start of the year, was that Coker gets around quite a bit, though he was a little smarter about it than others.

in iowa city, if you are a fb player who wanted to get around, you're getting around. i'm sure nothing has changed since i was a student there in the early 90s. fb players hovered above all.

 

[hawkeyebob62]

So you think these men should remain virginal and never invite women over?

Advice for the men who would have a higher propensity of being accused of this so as to become a mark in a civil suit - carry a consent form. Make her sign it. Protect yourself against criminal laws and the litigious American civil tort system.

And to the women in these situations, if you don't want all-star meat, don't go to the all-star suite (or the bathroom in Big Ben's case). Don't be naive, these guys aren't inviting you over to talk about hair, makeup and the latest articles in Cosmo. Again, I don't mean to sound callous or stereotypical, but I suspect when a Mike Tyson, Kobe Bryant or other major all-star is inviting some random gal to his motel room, in 99.999% of cases, he's got one thing on his mind and I think that 99.999% of women out there are smart enough to know this. Timbow is the .0001% guy - you can go to his suite.

Al-time greatest post--EVER--on HN.com. As Homer Simpson once said, "It works on so many levels!"

 

[FoolishFellow]

So you think these men should remain virginal and never invite women over?

Advice for the men who would have a higher propensity of being accused of this so as to become a mark in a civil suit - carry a consent form. Make her sign it. Protect yourself against criminal laws and the litigious American civil tort system.

And to the women in these situations, if you don't want all-star meat, don't go to the all-star suite (or the bathroom in Big Ben's case). Don't be naive, these guys aren't inviting you over to talk about hair, makeup and the latest articles in Cosmo. Again, I don't mean to sound callous or stereotypical, but I suspect when a Mike Tyson, Kobe Bryant or other major all-star is inviting some random gal to his motel room, in 99.999% of cases, he's got one thing on his mind and I think that 99.999% of women out there are smart enough to know this. Timbow is the .0001% guy - you can go to his suite.

Women shouldn't have to worry where they can and cannot go, or what they can and cannot wear. Society should teach men to respect the rights of women.

Women shouldn't have to fear possible rape every time they walk home alone at night, or every time they are in a man's apartment.

While I agree that it is okay to teach children some common sense about avoiding violence. I think it is wrong to emphasize that it is somehow a woman's responsibility "to not get raped."

 

[tm3308]

Women shouldn't have to worry where they can and cannot go, or what they can and cannot wear. Society should teach men to respect the rights of women.

Women shouldn't have to fear possible rape every time they walk home alone at night, or every time they are in a man's apartment.

While I agree that it is okay to teach children some common sense about avoiding violence. I think it is wrong to emphasize that it is somehow a woman's responsibility "to not get raped."

While the responsibility for a crime like that rests on the perpetrator, a woman can afford to not dress promiscuously. IDK if that was the case here, but it certainly doesn't help. Treating women like they are just helpless little things isn't fair to the rights of women, either. There ARE things they can do to protect themselves without being unreasonable. That doesn't make it her fault, though.

 

[hogeye]

Women shouldn't have to worry where they can and cannot go, or what they can and cannot wear. Society should teach men to respect the rights of women.

Women shouldn't have to fear possible rape every time they walk home alone at night, or every time they are in a man's apartment.

While I agree that it is okay to teach children some common sense about avoiding violence. I think it is wrong to emphasize that it is somehow a woman's responsibility "to not get raped."

Don't be ridiculous here. His post had nothing to do with women in a general public setting. His reply is spot on and you can damn well bet I'll be raising my daughter's with a similar mindset. They better be cautious about what environments they are in and what the people they are associating with are after.

That's not a sexist thing, that actually goes for everyone, regardless.

I realize in your Utopian little world all people would respect each other and no crimes would be committed, but the reality of the situation dictates otherwise.

 

[patmyne]

So you think these men should remain virginal and never invite women over?

Advice for the men who would have a higher propensity of being accused of this so as to become a mark in a civil suit - carry a consent form. Make her sign it. Protect yourself against criminal laws and the litigious American civil tort system.

And to the women in these situations, if you don't want all-star meat, don't go to the all-star suite (or the bathroom in Big Ben's case). Don't be naive, these guys aren't inviting you over to talk about hair, makeup and the latest articles in Cosmo. Again, I don't mean to sound callous or stereotypical, but I suspect when a Mike Tyson, Kobe Bryant or other major all-star is inviting some random gal to his motel room, in 99.999% of cases, he's got one thing on his mind and I think that 99.999% of women out there are smart enough to know this. Timbow is the .0001% guy - you can go to his suite.

Bravo sir, Bra-F'in-O!

 

[okeefe4prez]

Women shouldn't have to worry where they can and cannot go, or what they can and cannot wear. Society should teach men to respect the rights of women.

Women shouldn't have to fear possible rape every time they walk home alone at night, or every time they are in a man's apartment.

While I agree that it is okay to teach children some common sense about avoiding violence. I think it is wrong to emphasize that it is somehow a woman's responsibility "to not get raped."

Everyone should worry where they can and can't go. EVERYONE. Society, and particularly college, does teach men to respect the rights of women. Additionally, the court system has implemented scores of evidentiary rules to protect womens' background in these cases, so their clothing, occupation, history of promiscuity, etc. is safeguarded.

And to be clear, I'm not talking about walking home at night here. I'm talking about a woman going to some guy's house after midnight on a school night. The guy isn't hosting an impromptu study session.

I was chatting with a college aged female friend about the issue of date or acquaintance rape (which are probably the overwhelming majority of sexual assault cases). She said essentially, "I do not go to a guy's house late at night or after leaving the bar if I don't want to have sex with the guy because the guy will think the only reason I am going to his house is to have sex." If my daughter leaves for college with that degree of wisdom, I will consider myself a successful father (with bouts of repression and despair hoping she's not making too many of those voluntary trips).

As a legal matter, I completely agree about the "shoulds" you cite, but as a practical matter, every woman needs the common sense and street smarts that my friend has. Going through the process of a rape test, hours of questioning by the police, maybe days of cross examination by the defense, months or years of waiting for the whole thing to play out and then only having the remedy of having the guy go to jail - all that sucks and is very cold comfort during the course of the act and in dealing with the aftermath.

I personally don't want to be a robbery or murder victim. Now I could say "it is wrong to emphasize that it is somehow a person's responsibility 'to not get robbed or murdered.'" And that would be fine and dandy, but as a practical matter, I'm not going to go walk down the 7900 block of South Shore Drive at 2 o'clock in the morning flashing an iPhone and a wad of cash. You know why? Because I have a fairly strong belief that at least 9 times out of 10 that I did that, someone would want that stuff from me and there wouldn't be a cop around to stop them from taking it through the use of force if they subscribed to a different moral code than me and you.

Irregardless of whether or not I "shouldn't have to fear" being a victim of a crime, the legal remedies are of very little comfort to me when a 9mm is pointed at my head (even though guns are illegal in Chicago). These angry studies programs don't need to emphasize the "oh you're a special little flower and nothing bad should ever happen to you." Some people are a-holes and when it comes to protection of your body, you control a pretty big chunk of your own destiny.

 

[FoolishFellow]

While the responsibility for a crime like that rests on the perpetrator, a woman can afford to not dress promiscuously. IDK if that was the case here, but it certainly doesn't help. Treating women like they are just helpless little things isn't fair to the rights of women, either. There ARE things they can do to protect themselves without being unreasonable. That doesn't make it her fault, though.

I was definitely not implying that women are "helpless." My post was in response to an earlier comment:

"And to the women in these situations, if you don't want all-star meat, don't go to the all-star suite."

Women should not have to be fearful of going into a man's apartment alone. Going up to an apartment is not consent. Comments tread into "blame the victim" territory.

I am not saying that we live in a utopian world, or that children shouldn't be educated about that sorts of horrible things that occur in our society (and what they can do to protect themselves from being a victim). Not what I am saying at all.

My point, first and foremost, is that men need to understand that sexual assault is not tolerable. We shouldn't be giving our daughters the lesson: this is what will happen to you because this is just how society has always worked and therefore you need to act a certain way to avoid getting raped.

We should be giving the men in our society the lesson that sexual assault under all circumstances is not tolerable, even if you are a star athlete, even if the women is alone, drunk, or dressed provocatively.

 

[hogeye]

I was definitely not implying that women are "helpless." My post was in response to an earlier comment:

"And to the women in these situations, if you don't want all-star meat, don't go to the all-star suite."

Women should not have to be fearful of going into a man's apartment alone. Going up to an apartment is not consent. Comments tread into "blame the victim" territory.

I am not saying that we live in a utopian world, or that children shouldn't be educated about that sorts of horrible things that occur in our society (and what they can do to protect themselves from being a victim). Not what I am saying at all.

My point, first and foremost, is that men need to understand that sexual assault is not tolerable. We shouldn't be giving our daughters the lesson: this is what will happen to you because this is just how society has always worked and therefore you need to act a certain way to avoid getting raped.

We should be giving the men in our society the lesson that sexual assault under all circumstances is not tolerable, even if you are a star athlete, even if the women is alone, drunk, or dressed provocatively.

Your premise is flawed. There is education in society. Men do understand this concept. This is taught in public and private venues. People need to learn that education isn't the key to everything. You can educate people all you want, but at the end of the day individual moral values vary, sometimes significantly.

Also, you're arguably the person in this conversation who is promoting the more dangerous criticism. Criticizing people for educating based on reality...the reality that it's not wise to put yourself in a position where your safety could be compromised. Reality dictates that you, as an individual, need to use good judgement and measure other peoples values before placing yourself into situations. Regardless of sex, age, gender or whatever.

There isn't anything wrong with educating people to think about their safety and what situation they are putting themselves in. Just like there is nothing wrong with educating people about moral values even though you're carefully skirting that specific concept.

However, insinuating that his advice promotes indecent acts isn't a fair assertion. You're trying to attach a stigma, or an illegitimate implication, to what his advice gives that simply isn't fairly representative of the face value of the statement. He isn't directly, or indirectly, advocating to train women that this is the way life is so deal with it.

 

[okeefe4prez]

(1) Women should not have to be fearful of going into a man's apartment alone.

(2) Going up to an apartment is not consent.

(3) We should be giving the men in our society the lesson that sexual assault under all circumstances is not tolerable, even if you are a star athlete, even if the women is alone, drunk, or dressed provocatively.

(1) Unfortunately, if they are just going to a guy's apartment under whatever pretext he cooked up at midnight, they should be on heightened alert. Again, I highly doubt most reasonable people would conclude there is going to be a study session taking place.

(2) I agree as a matter of law. But in reality, there might not be a meeting of the minds and every woman needs to know and understand this.

(3) Men in our society are peppered with all kinds of anti crime propaganda from the time they are infants, including messages found in schools, church and television programming. With 7+ million American adults under some sort of correctional supervision, sadly I don't think that is working as well as we had hoped.

 

[FoolishFellow]

(1) Unfortunately, if they are just going to a guy's apartment under whatever pretext he cooked up at midnight, they should be on heightened alert. Again, I highly doubt most reasonable people would conclude there is going to be a study session taking place.

(2) I agree as a matter of law. But in reality, there might not be a meeting of the minds and every woman needs to know and understand this.

(3) Men in our society are peppered with all kinds of anti crime propaganda from the time they are infants, including messages found in schools, church and television programming. With 7+ million American adults under some sort of correctional supervision, sadly I don't think that is working as well as we had hoped.

Again, I never said that people shouldn't make safe decisions when comforted with potentially dangerous situations.

My argument is simply trying to point out the double standard created when people say things along the lines of "if you don't want all-star meat, don't go to the all-star suite."

Yes it is a horrible fact of life that violent sex crimes exists (and there are actions that one can take to potentially avoid being a victim)... but it is regressive to spend so much time picking apart and criticizing the actions of victims.

okeefe, I think you are a fine person... and I'm not saying that anyone posting in this thread right now doesn't care about the rights/safety of women. I'm simply trying to point out the dangerous road that we walk down as a society if we continually criticize the actions/inactions of victims.

Additionally, there are only so many preventative measures that can be taken. Sexual assaults can be perpetrated by individuals whom the victim previously trusted.

Nobody knows the circumstances of the assault in question (and we will probably never know everything). It is highly problematic to assume that the victim was just a "random groupie" who was wooed into the apartment of a star athlete and should have known better.

 

[DuffMan]

I was definitely not implying that women are "helpless." My post was in response to an earlier comment:

"And to the women in these situations, if you don't want all-star meat, don't go to the all-star suite."

Women should not have to be fearful of going into a man's apartment alone. Going up to an apartment is not consent. Comments tread into "blame the victim" territory.

I am not saying that we live in a utopian world, or that children shouldn't be educated about that sorts of horrible things that occur in our society (and what they can do to protect themselves from being a victim). Not what I am saying at all.

My point, first and foremost, is that men need to understand that sexual assault is not tolerable. We shouldn't be giving our daughters the lesson: this is what will happen to you because this is just how society has always worked and therefore you need to act a certain way to avoid getting raped.

We should be giving the men in our society the lesson that sexual assault under all circumstances is not tolerable, even if you are a star athlete, even if the women is alone, drunk, or dressed provocatively.

Sneaking into a dark quiet prison shower stall with another dude might not be "consent" either but you can bet your *** (or in this case mine) I ain't gonna do it.

Tell you what, you teach YOUR daughter about a wonderful utopian world, I'll teach mine about the real world.

 

[DuffMan]

Again, I never said that people shouldn't make safe decisions when comforted with potentially dangerous situations.

My argument is simply trying to point out the double standard created when people say things along the lines of "if you don't want all-star meat, don't go to the all-star suite."

Yes it is a horrible fact of life that violent sex crimes exists (and there are actions that one can take to potentially avoid being a victim)... but it is regressive to spend so much time picking apart and criticizing the actions of victims.

okeefe, I think you are a fine person... and I'm not saying that anyone posting in this thread right now doesn't care about the rights/safety of women. I'm simply trying to point out the dangerous road that we walk down as a society if we continually criticize the actions/inactions of victims.

Additionally, there are only so many preventative measures that can be taken. Sexual assaults can be perpetrated by individuals whom the victim previously trusted.

Nobody knows the circumstances of the assault in question (and we will probably never know everything). It is highly problematic to assume that the victim was just a "random groupie" who was wooed into the apartment of a star athlete and should have known better.

The far more dangerous road is one in which doesn't take into account the real world and the impact our decisions have within it.

 

[okeefe4prez]

My argument is simply trying to point out the double standard created when people say things along the lines of "if you don't want all-star meat, don't go to the all-star suite."

okeefe, I think you are a fine person... and I'm not saying that anyone posting in this thread right now doesn't care about the rights/safety of women. I'm simply trying to point out the dangerous road that we walk down as a society if we continually criticize the actions/inactions of victims.

Additionally, there are only so many preventative measures that can be taken. Sexual assaults can be perpetrated by individuals whom the victim previously trusted.

My uncle, a great criminal defense attorney, is the one who from who I heard the all-star suite defense (which is obviously not a defense), so I have to give him a hat tip. Anyway, I don't think there is a double standard there. It is based on a very simple premise of not putting oneself in situation they don't want to be in by exercising a modicum of common sense.

I lived in NY a little over a decade ago, just a wet behind the ears Iowa boy in the big city. We had a guy upstairs who reminded me and my brother of Jeffrey Dahmer - he acted kind of like Kramer from the hit television program Steinfeld and was generally somewhat creepy. One night, we heard sawing all night and what I would describe as a blood colored substance soaked through the ceiling/upper walls. He came to our place bright and early the next morning with some story about the roof leaking and him taking heroic measures to fix it and asking us if any "rusty water" leaked through into our place, making no eye contact the entire time. My brother and I debated calling the police and having them sample the "rusty water" as we thought it might have been "human blood" but the guy was quiet for the most part and we didn't want some mom with 10 kids moving into his apartment so we kept our mouths shut and painted the place the following weekend, because it could always be worse. Anyway, this guy would come bother us at least once a month asking one of us to go to his apartment to do something - help hang a picture, help fix his VCR, help with some plumbing issue and we always came up with a reason we couldn't go. You know why we didn't go? Because we thought the guy was full of crap and was using the story as pretext to get one of us alone in his apartment and we would find ourselves wearing a gag ball moments after entering. That's the moral of the story. If a young man invites a young lady to his apartment at midnight under the pretext of "let's eat some Doritos", "let's have a cup of coffee", "let's watch TV" or whatever else these kids are using nowadays, chances are the young man is thinking of something else and if the gal ain't DTF, she would be best advised to just head home, because I am of the school of thought that it is a helluva better to prevent a rape than for a rape to occur and the perp to spend 25 years in jail.

I agree, there are only so many preventative measures that can be taken to prevent acquaintance or date rape, or in the case of my Dahmer-esque neighbor from upstairs, being sawed into little pieces. One of the absolutely positively best ways is not going into someone's apartment (or the all star suite) without backup.

 

[hogeye]

Yes it is a horrible fact of life that violent sex crimes exists (and there are actions that one can take to potentially avoid being a victim)... but it is regressive to spend so much time picking apart and criticizing the actions of victims...I'm simply trying to point out the dangerous road that we walk down as a society if we continually criticize the actions/inactions of victims.

He made one comment that was remotely critical of the victims actions and the intent wasn't just to be critical, but rather point out fact of the situation. Ignorance is arguably one of the most dangerous things and educating people on potentially real threats isn't in any way going down some kind of dangerous road.

Now, if he had blamed the victim flat out and stated that this was entirely her fault and taken it to the next level then perhaps your argument has merit. But within the context of the conversation it does not, so you need to realize it''s your criticism here that is out of line.

Additionally, there are only so many preventative measures that can be taken. Sexual assaults can be perpetrated by individuals whom the victim previously trusted.

No of us were discounting that fact. And frankly, if anyone on this thread has gone overboard on the preventative measures issue I think that might be you, Pot.

Nobody knows the circumstances of the assault in question (and we will probably never know everything). It is highly problematic to assume that the victim was just a "random groupie" who was wooed into the apartment of a star athlete and should have known better.

And, so back to okeefe's point we arrive.

 

[HomerChampless]

On kind of a side note, I'm wondering if Coker lived in a dorm or private housing because I believe there's more of a chance for this kind of thing happening in private housing.

I'm for athletes staying in dorms for the entirety of their stay at Iowa.
I'm for roomates being held 'liable' for other roomates' behavior in the athletic dorm.

Why was Coker allowed to be alone with a girl at 4AM?

Why did Coker quit the team even though the prosecution didn't want to pursue the case? Were there additional team conflicts with Coker that arose from the incident (other than the 1 game suspension of the bowl game)?
It sure looks like there were additional Coker conflicts with the team that arose from the incident.