Can the NBA be saved????
- Thread starter 1013Hawk
- Start date
JonDMiller
Publisher/Founder
And have been for the last several years.
One could argue that Kobe is on equal footing with Jordan at the same age...as much as I hate to admit that. One could argue Lebron is ahead of both of them.
The thing is that Jordan did it first...we have already seen it...and Jordan did it at the right time, as the popularity of the sport peaked with Bird and Magic..when not every game was on TV (in the 90's) and the weekend games were still appt TV no matter if your favorite team was on...but they typically were, because in the 80's you were likely either a Lakers, Celtics or Sixers fan unless you lived in an NBA city.
The basketball was also a lot more entertaining to watch..more scoring, more of an open game. Today's game is just not palatable to the masses as it once was...perhaps its the hip hop culture that has crept in and that just doesn't play in Peoria...well, at least certain parts of Peoria that are the target demos for advertisers.
But it certainly plays in Dallas, where over 108,000 were at the All Star game?!?!
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LG210
Well-Known Member
In my opinion, the NBA's problem is this: It is half sport, half WWE-style entertainment. It feels as if the games are scripted and, therefore, the games are not that much fun to watch.
You know that LeBron is going to get the foul call when he is driving the lane with less than a minute to go and that he won't get called for the foul on the other end of the court in the same scenario. Not trying to pick on LeBron here, just using him as a proxy for the "stars" of the league. Now, I know the league did this in the 80s/early 90s, as well, but I would argue that it wasn't to the same degree night in and night out. The league would do itself a favor by letting the players decide the outcome of the games without the taint of referee favortism.
Also, as Jon pointed out above, the style of game played is nearly unwatchable. Isolation plays are not really an offense. Trading 20 foot jumpers as the PA system plays a recording of "do-do-do-do-do-do-----Charge" is not entertaining. Further, who wants to pay to watch guys play with 65-80% effort for 45 of the 48 minutes of the game? 82 games is a lot of games to get up for over the course of a season, but the effort level seams to have dropped off from the 80s/90s.
I live in an NBA city, and through work I can get free tickets to almost any home game. I have taken advantage of that perk exactly zero times.
You know that LeBron is going to get the foul call when he is driving the lane with less than a minute to go and that he won't get called for the foul on the other end of the court in the same scenario. Not trying to pick on LeBron here, just using him as a proxy for the "stars" of the league. Now, I know the league did this in the 80s/early 90s, as well, but I would argue that it wasn't to the same degree night in and night out. The league would do itself a favor by letting the players decide the outcome of the games without the taint of referee favortism.
Also, as Jon pointed out above, the style of game played is nearly unwatchable. Isolation plays are not really an offense. Trading 20 foot jumpers as the PA system plays a recording of "do-do-do-do-do-do-----Charge" is not entertaining. Further, who wants to pay to watch guys play with 65-80% effort for 45 of the 48 minutes of the game? 82 games is a lot of games to get up for over the course of a season, but the effort level seams to have dropped off from the 80s/90s.
I live in an NBA city, and through work I can get free tickets to almost any home game. I have taken advantage of that perk exactly zero times.
clicheusername3
Banned
Yes, but David Stern needs to go, they need a Roger goodell type commish and a nfl style competition committee....
woodyk1
Well-Known Member
It is a cyclical thing, like other sports. The drug scandals of the 70's were a low for the NBA. Bird and Magic (and then Jordan) did help re-establish the popularity of the league.
Then came the thug defenses of the Pistons and Knicks (to name a few) in response to Jordan and scoring went down. They have tried to do things like allowing zone defenses and scoring is up a bit again. However, the ref (Donagy) scandal has cost some popularity.
Also, I agree with the PA announcers making it sound like an And 1 tour (as some colleges have too) are not popular in places like Peoria. The gun issue with Arenas also shows how the players are a bit detached from the rest of society (I don't think this is just an NBA issue).
From a business standpoint, like the other major sports, they may have expanded a little too much. There are many franchises in financial trouble. Seattle losing a team (to Oklahoma City) should be a major sign of that trouble. There may be teams that go under before it turns around.
It will be interesting to see how the league responds. The movement of the major free agents (LeBron, Wade, Bosh, etc.) this summer may show the overall financial standing of the league and shed some light on the future.
Then came the thug defenses of the Pistons and Knicks (to name a few) in response to Jordan and scoring went down. They have tried to do things like allowing zone defenses and scoring is up a bit again. However, the ref (Donagy) scandal has cost some popularity.
Also, I agree with the PA announcers making it sound like an And 1 tour (as some colleges have too) are not popular in places like Peoria. The gun issue with Arenas also shows how the players are a bit detached from the rest of society (I don't think this is just an NBA issue).
From a business standpoint, like the other major sports, they may have expanded a little too much. There are many franchises in financial trouble. Seattle losing a team (to Oklahoma City) should be a major sign of that trouble. There may be teams that go under before it turns around.
It will be interesting to see how the league responds. The movement of the major free agents (LeBron, Wade, Bosh, etc.) this summer may show the overall financial standing of the league and shed some light on the future.
GhostofBTT
Banned
The NBA is not in any danger of collapsing. According to Forbes, 60% of NBA teams made money last season. Most of the teams to lose money are crappy, small-town teams like the Ntes, Bucks, Kings, Pacers, T-Wolves, Bobcats, and Grizzlies.
Big market teams make serious money. The Lakers and the Bulls made over $50 million. Even the Knicks made over $20 million.
Big market teams make serious money. The Lakers and the Bulls made over $50 million. Even the Knicks made over $20 million.
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eamusbuteo
Member
I think Jason Whitlock said it best (and I'm paraphrasing here) in that many players act as if they are in a glorified AAU league with private jets and a girlfriend in every town. They may know how to play the game, but they don't understand the game.
I think he makes a good point - Jordan, Magic, Bird - they were professionals. They wore suits to the locker rooms - and not by league mandate. Which, by the way, many players complained about when Stern implemented it.
And I am not just blaming the players. I think the NBA bet that most viewers want to see great scoring plays over great competition. That's why if you watch an NBA game, you'll see great scoring throughout the game and great competition in the last 5 minutes of the game.
It's not the players' fault here. If you can play 90% of the game at 3/4 speed and come up in the end and win, it only makes sense to do that. Especially with the long season and playoffs, it helps to keep gas in the tank at the end.
I think he makes a good point - Jordan, Magic, Bird - they were professionals. They wore suits to the locker rooms - and not by league mandate. Which, by the way, many players complained about when Stern implemented it.
And I am not just blaming the players. I think the NBA bet that most viewers want to see great scoring plays over great competition. That's why if you watch an NBA game, you'll see great scoring throughout the game and great competition in the last 5 minutes of the game.
It's not the players' fault here. If you can play 90% of the game at 3/4 speed and come up in the end and win, it only makes sense to do that. Especially with the long season and playoffs, it helps to keep gas in the tank at the end.
woodyk1
Well-Known Member
Although I agree that Jordan, Magic, and Bird were pros and understood the game, at least 2 of those 3 had girlfriends in other towns too.
That is not an exclusive NBA issue.NewMexHawk
Well-Known Member
I don't know, I haven't watched an NBA game for 13 years...
HawkeyeMike23
Banned
The NBA has a great core of young talent, better than it's had in decades. LeBron, Carmelo, Dwight Howard, Wade, Durant, Roy, CP3, Rose, the ratings for both the playoffs and the regular season have been way up the last two seasons. Most of the league's struggles are due to the recession, which has been particularly hard on small maket teams like the Pacers, Kings, Bobcats, Hornets etc. I think overall the league will be fine financially but there could very well be several teams moving locations in the next few years.
olivecourt
Well-Known Member
hawkeyemike, totally agree that the nba is on the rise in terms of talent. i think a lot of people shut the league out in the early 2000s, when the spurs, lakers, and a mediocre pistons squad dominated a bunch of bad teams and every promising young player came to the league straight from high school and burned out almost immediately. banning high schoolers from the draft has had a huge impact. teams are much deeper, elite players are distributed more evenly, and it's a lot easier to build through the draft because you can get nba-ready players in the lottery rather than undeveloped/immature 18-year olds (darius miles comes to mind).
one problem that won't go away: 82 games is way too many and forces a ton of back-to-back games. these produce the type of games that turn people off... players stand around for three quarters, conserve energy and then turn in over to their stars in the last four minutes. i'd love to see them cut to 76 games, spread out over the same amount of time. regular season games can still be great when they match up two quality rested teams (see the wade-lebron shootout several weeks ago).
of course, david stern has said multiple times he'll never support cutting the schedule, and even if he was replaced tomorrow the owners would never agree either.
one problem that won't go away: 82 games is way too many and forces a ton of back-to-back games. these produce the type of games that turn people off... players stand around for three quarters, conserve energy and then turn in over to their stars in the last four minutes. i'd love to see them cut to 76 games, spread out over the same amount of time. regular season games can still be great when they match up two quality rested teams (see the wade-lebron shootout several weeks ago).
of course, david stern has said multiple times he'll never support cutting the schedule, and even if he was replaced tomorrow the owners would never agree either.
AlwaysbeaHawk
Banned
saved from what? there were 108,000 fans at the all-star game...
DailyMealDeal
Well-Known Member
I think the last time I actually sat down and watched an NBA game was maybe the early 90's. Flipping through channels now I'll watch 30 seconds or so of a random game and in my opinion it's just flat unwatchable. Like someone above posted.....I feel like it's become more of a pro wrestling thing where I don't even consider these guys to be real athletes....they're just providing entertainment to the lowest common denominator. When Lebron does his little powder act or Kobe stares into the crowd after making a three or whatever I'm just embarassed for everyone involved. It's like a ten-year old's dream of what's cool.
trj
Well-Known Member
Can the NBA be saved? Good question.
1)Besides the NFL which is a cash cow every other Professional League in this country has financial issues.
2)Style of play: From about 1988 to roughly 2004 the grab and hold grind-it out basketball was unwatchable, except for a few teams, now is almost non-existent. Rules changes have helped....."Thug" ball that the Pistons created in the late eighties has gone away.
3)The shoot first, shoot a lot, shoot 30% pg are dwindling away. The Iversons, Marbury, the Stevie Francis are being replaced by the Williams, the Pauls, Nash(s) of the world.
4)I hate to say this and will probably get blasted for saying this, but the league could probably use a few white american stars. And looking on the horizon none are on the way. To quote former Sixer owner Howard Katz, "White people need heroes, too."
5)David Stern is a proactive, not a reactive commissioner compared to a certain baseball commissioner.
6) All the NBA stars are likeable people, the most polarizing is Kobe, but even then you respect his game.
7)NBA has a perception of players not caring/trying......Non-guaranteed contracts may be the way to go.......It was to hard stomach watching Marbury getting paid $21 million to sit on the bench last year. Set-up a NFL style format--Where the only thing guaranteed is the signing bonsus.
8) From the mid nineties to the early part of this decade, the NBA embraced hip-hop, and frankly it worked, but since there has been a backlash by middle america. David Stern is doing the right thing by trying to distance itself from the hip hop world......Even cosmetic things like having players that are not suited up for the game where sports coats on the sideline helps.
9)The tats and the cornrows are part of mainstream America as fake boobs and body piercings........either you can get past that or you can't. Thats a u problem.
10)The NBA players simply can't get away with some of the stuff, NFL players can get away with.....Somewhat of a double standard....but it is what is. Image is everything....Divas and "thug" quotient is probably higher in the NFL, than the NBA, the NFL continues to prosper and the NBA image takes a hit for every incident..So in other words the few potheads have to clean up their act.
These are just talking points, something to discuss and debate.
1)Besides the NFL which is a cash cow every other Professional League in this country has financial issues.
2)Style of play: From about 1988 to roughly 2004 the grab and hold grind-it out basketball was unwatchable, except for a few teams, now is almost non-existent. Rules changes have helped....."Thug" ball that the Pistons created in the late eighties has gone away.
3)The shoot first, shoot a lot, shoot 30% pg are dwindling away. The Iversons, Marbury, the Stevie Francis are being replaced by the Williams, the Pauls, Nash(s) of the world.
4)I hate to say this and will probably get blasted for saying this, but the league could probably use a few white american stars. And looking on the horizon none are on the way. To quote former Sixer owner Howard Katz, "White people need heroes, too."
5)David Stern is a proactive, not a reactive commissioner compared to a certain baseball commissioner.
6) All the NBA stars are likeable people, the most polarizing is Kobe, but even then you respect his game.
7)NBA has a perception of players not caring/trying......Non-guaranteed contracts may be the way to go.......It was to hard stomach watching Marbury getting paid $21 million to sit on the bench last year. Set-up a NFL style format--Where the only thing guaranteed is the signing bonsus.
8) From the mid nineties to the early part of this decade, the NBA embraced hip-hop, and frankly it worked, but since there has been a backlash by middle america. David Stern is doing the right thing by trying to distance itself from the hip hop world......Even cosmetic things like having players that are not suited up for the game where sports coats on the sideline helps.
9)The tats and the cornrows are part of mainstream America as fake boobs and body piercings........either you can get past that or you can't. Thats a u problem.
10)The NBA players simply can't get away with some of the stuff, NFL players can get away with.....Somewhat of a double standard....but it is what is. Image is everything....Divas and "thug" quotient is probably higher in the NFL, than the NBA, the NFL continues to prosper and the NBA image takes a hit for every incident..So in other words the few potheads have to clean up their act.
These are just talking points, something to discuss and debate.
The NBA is in trouble in some markets,with the recession...yes..but here in chicago the Bulls continue to lead the league in attendance as they have since the last Bulls title in 98. Why? Well, no doubt the Jordan era bought a ton of loyalty to the Bulls,but beyond that, a Bulls game is still considered an entertainment ''event'' in this region. Casual fans go for the experience. Hardcore fans go because Rose is fun to watch and opposing teams have good players to watch.
I know that in non-metro areas, the NBA is not as popular,but in the ciities...it is still very popular partly because bb is a city game,but also because there is a lot of great players in the league right now.
I watch most Bulls games. I also watch some other games...guess I am the exception,but anyone that says they do not play a watchable game is just not that big of a bb fan. And I suspect some like Jon might have tuned out the last 4-5 years when the influence of the euro coaches has opened the game up..ie D'Antoio with the Suns/knicks...and the guy in Toronto...scoring is up the last few years, and wide open ball is ever more popular. It is funny,because a common complaint is that they do not play defense in the NBA but then others complain that there is too much physical play allowed and it is an isolation grind....sorry, cannot have it both ways...
bottom line, the best teams play good defense...lakers,celts,spurs,ect...and they also can score. The NBA is doing fine...with amazing players like Lebron who actually likes to pass more than he likes to score,which is why he leads the forwards in assists even while scoring 29pts a game. Lebron is the new-age Magic,Kobe is this era's Jordan...and Dirk is Bird...whatta want?
I know that in non-metro areas, the NBA is not as popular,but in the ciities...it is still very popular partly because bb is a city game,but also because there is a lot of great players in the league right now.
I watch most Bulls games. I also watch some other games...guess I am the exception,but anyone that says they do not play a watchable game is just not that big of a bb fan. And I suspect some like Jon might have tuned out the last 4-5 years when the influence of the euro coaches has opened the game up..ie D'Antoio with the Suns/knicks...and the guy in Toronto...scoring is up the last few years, and wide open ball is ever more popular. It is funny,because a common complaint is that they do not play defense in the NBA but then others complain that there is too much physical play allowed and it is an isolation grind....sorry, cannot have it both ways...
bottom line, the best teams play good defense...lakers,celts,spurs,ect...and they also can score. The NBA is doing fine...with amazing players like Lebron who actually likes to pass more than he likes to score,which is why he leads the forwards in assists even while scoring 29pts a game. Lebron is the new-age Magic,Kobe is this era's Jordan...and Dirk is Bird...whatta want?
LG210
Well-Known Member
Dirk is not Bird.
HawkeyeDug
Well-Known Member
I don't like the way the game is played. There is too much Iso, and that isn't appealing to me. I would honestly rather watch Iowa play. In my opinion it is ruining the game at the lower levels as kids would much rather throw up some junk with a guy in their face than pass to an open teammate. This is especially frustrating to someone like myself who plays a good amount of pickup ball but plays more of an old school back to the basket style post game. I get tired of working for position or having a big mismatch advantage where I am continually bypassed for a 3 pointer with a man in the face taken by a kid who can't shoot when I have a higher % shot down low, or if I can't get a good look or get double/tripled I can find you for an open shot. Many a time I have played pickup games where we get beat simply because terrible 3's being thrown up and I get 1 or 2 entry passes if I'm lucky.
Sorry about the long rant. I get worked up over this topic pretty easily. Basically, I prefer a team type game. (BTW, I just saw a beautiful up and under by Sherna on the Minny/NW replay on B10Network replay, that is one of my favorite moves.)
Sorry about the long rant. I get worked up over this topic pretty easily. Basically, I prefer a team type game. (BTW, I just saw a beautiful up and under by Sherna on the Minny/NW replay on B10Network replay, that is one of my favorite moves.)
