A big missed call from the UNI game that irked me

[storminspank]

The non-call on the over and back where Jacobsen called the timeout.

The ball handler never had both feet over the timeline with possession of the ball. I understand that. So therefore, there wasn't an over-and-back call that needed to be made.

However, if the call is in fact that the ball handler never made it over the timeline, it should have been a 10 second violation.

When Jacobsen called the timeout, there was 25 seconds on the shotclock. That's a violation.

It didn't matter because UNI came down and put up a bad shot, but it could have swung momentum.

Calls like that irk me because it's not a judgment call. So many basketball calls are based on human judgment. This one wasn't. NCAA refs have to be able to get those right.

 

[DuffMan]

You have to remember spank that these guys don't use the shot clock to time the 10 seconds, they count in thier heads with a visible arm motion. I can also speak from experience that it sometimes is difficult to maintain a count in your head, while trying to get an angle to see whats going on, while trying to anticipate/be ready for a call you might have to make.

 

[storminspank]

I realize they do a count in the head type of deal, but for verification, I do know refs that will peek up at the shot clock when they hit a head count of 8 to verify. Then they will base it off that.

 

[DuffMan]

I realize they do a count in the head type of deal, but for verification, I do know refs that will peak up at the shot clock when they hit a head count of 8 to verify. Then they will base it off that.

This would really suprise me. Granted in HS there are no shot clocks so it's a bit more difficult but I've never seen or heard of a HS ref that will use the clock to aid is a count.

 

[hawkeyescott]

I think that was what Fran was mad about, not that it was over and back but a 10 second violation and the announcers were just wrong. I know I kept yelling at Ole' Wayne that all 3 points (the ball and both feet) were never across at the same time so it couldn't be over and back but the shot clock showed 25 seconds so therefore it was a 10 second violation. Wayne Larrivee sucks IMO, he called UNI on at least 2 occasions, Northern Illinois.

 

[Ronco]

You're irked because the correct call was made? If what you described went down exactly that way and the shot clock was at 25 seconds then that is not a violation. The clock needs to read 24.

To illustrate:
The shot clock starts at 35.0 seconds, which means a full second has not elapsed until the clock is at 33.9 or 33. That also means the full 10 seconds hadn't been used until the clock reads 24.9 or 24.

Obviously the 10 second clock is not in increments of tenths. If it was then a violation would have occurred at 25.0 seconds. The fact it isn't is why it must read 24. To call the violation at 25 would short change the team with the ball by up to .9 second. The refs also keep a count in their head and use their hand like a clock pendulum.

That is how refs are instructed.

 

[storminspank]

You're irked because the correct call was made? If what you described went down exactly that way and the shot clock was at 25 seconds then that is not a violation. The clock needs to read 24.

To illustrate:
The shot clock starts at 35.0 seconds, which means a full second has not elapsed until the clock is at 33.9. That also means the full 10 seconds hadn't been used until the clock reads 24.9.

Uh... no.

Count down in your head from 35.
34
33
32
31
30
29
28
27
26
25

Once it hits 25, 10 seconds have elapsed. This is true if you are doing a manual count, as refs do.

 

[tweeterhawk]

Uh... no.

Count down in your head from 35.
34
33
32
31
30
29
28
27
26
25

Once it hits 25, 10 seconds have elapsed. This is true if you are doing a manual count, as refs do.

Stormin, I referee in another sport but I think Ronco's explanation is correct. The full 10 seconds hasn't elapsed until the shot clock changes from 25.

 

[hawkeyescott]

You're irked because the correct call was made? If what you described went down exactly that way and the shot clock was at 25 seconds then that is not a violation. The clock needs to read 24.

To illustrate:
The shot clock starts at 35.0 seconds, which means a full second has not elapsed until the clock is at 33.9 or 33. That also means the full 10 seconds hadn't been used until the clock reads 24.9 or 24.

Obviously the 10 second clock is not in increments in tenths. If it was then a violation would have occurred at 25.0 seconds. The fact it isn't is why it must read 24.

LMAO, Math isn't a strong subject for you is it? 35 to 33.9 is 1.1 seconds so at 34 a full second has elapsed.

35
34.9
34.8
34.7
34.6
34.5
34.4
34.3
34.2
34.1
34.0
33.9

There are 10 tenths in a second, so at 34.0 ten tenths or 1 full second has elapsed.

 

[bws258]

the 24.9 argument is incorrect

but a 25.1 argument would be valid

 

[hawkeyescott]

Stormin, I referee in another sport but I think Ronco's explanation is correct. The full 10 seconds hasn't elapsed until the shot clock changes from 25.

You guys are saying the shot clock starts at 34.9 and it doesn't, you have to count from 35.

So 35 to 34.9 is a tenth, 34.9 to 34.8 is two tenths, 34.8 to 34.7 is three tenths, 34.7 to 34.6 is four tenths, 34.6 to 34.5 is five tenths, 34.5 to 34.4 is six tenths, 34.4 to 34.3 is seven tenths, 34.3 to 34.2 is eight tenths, 34.2 to 34.1 is nine tenths, 34.1 to 34.0 is ten tenths and 1 second has now elapsed at 34.0

 

[storminspank]

However you want to look at it, I know for a fact that I have seen 10 second calls take place when the shot clock is reading 25. And with the 25 shot clock up, the ref points to the SC to justify the call.

Take it for what it is worth.

 

[storminspank]

You guys are saying the shot clock starts at 34.9 and it doesn't, you have to count from 35.

So 35 to 34.9 is a tenth, 34.9 to 34.8 is two tenths, 34.8 to 34.7 is three tenths, 34.7 to 34.6 is four tenths, 34.6 to 34.5 is five tenths, 34.5 to 34.4 is six tenths, 34.4 to 34.3 is seven tenths, 34.3 to 34.2 is eight tenths, 34.2 to 34.1 is nine tenths, 34.1 to 34.0 is ten tenths and 1 second has now elapsed at 34.0

This is how I was trying to explain it by listing out the numbers from 35, but you explained it better than I.

 

[Ronco]

To clarify the confusion I added this to my original post:
Obviously the 10 second clock is not in increments of tenths. If it was then a violation would have occurred at 25.0 seconds. The fact it isn't is why it must read 24. To call the violation at 25 would short change the team with the ball by up to .9 second. The refs also keep a count in their head and use their hand like a clock pendulum.

 

[storminspank]

To clarify the confusion I added this to my original post:
Obviously the 10 second clock is not in increments of tenths. If it was then a violation would have occurred at 25.0 seconds. The fact it isn't is why it must read 24. To call the violation at 25 would short change the team with the ball by up to .9 second.

No.

35 showing on the clock to 34 showing on the clock = 1 second
34 showing on the clock to 33 showing on the clock = 1 second
33 showing on the clock to 32 showing on the clock = 1 second
32 showing on the clock to 31 showing on the clock = 1 second
31 showing on the clock to 30 showing on the clock = 1 second
30 showing on the clock to 29 showing on the clock = 1 second
29 showing on the clock to 28 showing on the clock = 1 second
28 showing on the clock to 27 showing on the clock = 1 second
27 showing on the clock to 26 showing on the clock = 1 second
26 showing on the clock to 25 showing on the clock = 1 second

That's 10 seconds.

The shot clock doesn't automatically go to 34 once 34.9 is reached.
It only goes to 34 once 34.0 is reached.

When the shot clock reads 1 second, it's inside the final second left on the shot clock. At any point when the shot clock reads 1, it could be .9, .8, .7 etc... that's why when the clock hits 0, the buzzer goes off.

When the clock reaches 25 on the shot clock, 10 seconds have elapsed.

 

[Hurtstown]

I would hate to get involved with this crazy explanation. But the when you have 10 seconds to get the ball up the court, then the violation does not occur until you have EXCEEDED 10 seconds, so 10.1 second. So when the referee finishes tthe 10 count, it is a violation...because it is OVER 10 seconds.

 

[storminspank]

I would hate to get involved with this crazy explanation. But the when you have 10 seconds to get the ball up the court, then the violation does not occur until you have EXCEEDED 10 seconds, so 10.1 second. So when the referee finishes tthe 10 count, it is a violation...because it is OVER 10 seconds.

Correct, so once the clock hits 25, the human element is worth .00001 of a second to have time to blow the whistle. Basically after the clock hits 25, it's a violation.

 

[LG210]

No.

35 showing on the clock to 34 showing on the clock = 1 second
34 showing on the clock to 33 showing on the clock = 1 second
33 showing on the clock to 32 showing on the clock = 1 second
32 showing on the clock to 31 showing on the clock = 1 second
31 showing on the clock to 30 showing on the clock = 1 second
30 showing on the clock to 29 showing on the clock = 1 second
29 showing on the clock to 28 showing on the clock = 1 second
28 showing on the clock to 27 showing on the clock = 1 second
27 showing on the clock to 26 showing on the clock = 1 second
26 showing on the clock to 25 showing on the clock = 1 second

That's 10 seconds.

The shot clock doesn't automatically go to 34 once 34.9 is reached.
It only goes to 34 once 34.0 is reached.

When the shot clock reads 1 second, it's inside the final second left on the shot clock. At any point when the shot clock reads 1, it could be .9, .8, .7 etc... that's why when the clock hits 0, the buzzer goes off.

When the clock reaches 25 on the shot clock, 10 seconds have elapsed.

I don't know how shot clocks work, but if the bolded text above is right, a clock showing 25 seconds means that 10 seconds would have elapsed and Spank is correctamundo.

 

[DaHawk56]

To clarify the confusion I added this to my original post:
Obviously the 10 second clock is not in increments of tenths. If it was then a violation would have occurred at 25.0 seconds. The fact it isn't is why it must read 24. To call the violation at 25 would short change the team with the ball by up to .9 second. The refs also keep a count in their head and use their hand like a clock pendulum.

Wrong again...

at 35.0, 35 shows on the clock
at 34.9, 35 shows on the clock
at 34.8, 35 shows on the clock
...
at 34.0, 34 shows on the clock
...


In other words, the moment 25 shows on the clock, exactly 10 seconds have elapsed. So stormin is correct in saying that a 10 second violation should have been called because if 25 is what the clock read, at least 10 seconds (and not more than 10.9 seconds) had elapsed.

 

[hawkeyescott]

I don't know how shot clocks work, but if the bolded text above is right, a clock showing 25 seconds means that 10 seconds would have elapsed and Spank is correctamundo.

Exactly right Spank is correct, when there is 24.9 to 24.1 seconds left the shot clock will show 25 not 24, it will only show 24 when there is 24.0 to 23.1 seconds left. As soon as a team gets the ball it doesn't drop to 34 seconds.