Why is it so hard to learn to play defense?

[VTHawk]

Sorry, but it is. When I coached (granted, back in the dark ages) we ran several different defenses. One was a straight man to man. We ran two different zone defenses and a match-up zone defense. Each one had slightly different rules. Then, for full-court presses we ran a run and trap as well as a run and jump; again, each had slightly different rules. We also ran 2-2-1 and a 1-2-1-1 zone full court presses. Each different defense was predicated on who we were playing and who I had on the court. I tended to have my teams press a lot because, after all, don't players want to run and press and shoot? Of course, to do this we had to spend a lot of time on conditioning in practices.

Each defense has certain weaknesses and strengths, just like each offense has certain weaknesses and strengths. If you run only one offense, you will get stopped as the game goes longer; plus, scouts see these tendencies and the opponents tend to stop your offense. The same things can be said about defenses.

If you think it's not difficult for a team to learn to be a good defensive team, then tell me: when the team is in a run and trap, who rotates to cover the man who leaves his man to create the trap? Who then rotates to cover that man's defensive rotation? If you don't realize that all these things require split-second decisions on a player's part to decide whether to rotate one way or another or even be in position to rotate or who to rotate to or when to split between two players because of a rotation, then you've never coached and tried to get players to learn rules.

There's a lot more to defense than saying "Stay between your man and the basket".

What I meant was that if Fran taught and worked on sound defensive schemes during practice maybe we could be more effective on defense. As others have pointed out perhaps our players just don't have the quickness or the defensive skills to improve, though I do not believe that.

From what I can tell Fran is unable to make adjustments effectively offensively or defensively during a game. Being a bad tactician of the game is something that is transparent.

I think there is no excuse for a coach to not emphasize and teach sound defense. Its a weakness that is obvious. Teams break down our defense at will. We can't even get stops down the stretch to win a game. The coach should take the responsibility for this.

 

[lazyhawkfan]

Don't we run multiple defenses already? I seem to recall hearing multiple times in multiple games that we do a good job of switching up our defense to keep teams off balance. That to me suggests that we are spending time in practice on d. I think the issue is we don't have the players with the ability to adjust within said defenses once good teams figure out how to beat it. Maybe that comes with better recruiting, which I think comes with playing a style players enjoy and success, which this year could go a long way towards.

To the other point of would you rather have a high scoring offense or a lock down defense? if it's an either or, give me the offense. Much more enjoyable games to watch.

 

[VTHawk]

You're right they could easily dedicate less time to the offense and more time to defense. If they did, we would still be a borderline top 10 team, but without the national recognition of having the number 1 offense in the nation.

I will take an all around better team that can get stops down the stretch then any kind of vanity every time.

 

[PCHawk]

I will take an all around better team that can get stops down the stretch then any kind of vanity every time.

I would take that too. I would assume every single hawk fan that ever lived would agree. We have been discussing whether or not practicing more defense would make us an all around better team.

 

[Ree4]

I would take that too. I would assume every single hawk fan that ever lived would agree. We have been discussing whether or not practicing more defense would make us an all around better team.

The economist in me would apply law of diminishing marginal utility. It would say the more time spent practicing either offense or defense, the lower the marginal benefit from it regarding wins produced. There's no doubt that spending more time practicing defense would result in an improvement, and the same can be said for offense. How much improvement though?

Where do we adjust the offense/defense slider to maximize the benefit when given a fixed amount of practice time? There exists some point where this would be true.

The slider also adjusts based on the skillset of our players. The real question which seems to be the debate: Is the slider currently in the right place?

Given the lack of athleticism I would say our defensive ability has a pretty low ceiling - hence practicing it more woudnt improve it that much. Given the lack of a player who can drive and dish requires more attention to a more complicated motion offense IMO.

 

[kicker22]

Whether we're ranked #1 offensively or top 25 we'd still be playing exciting offensive basketball. I don't know what goes on in practice so I'm not even going to venture as to whether working more on defense would affect our timing on offense.

That said, regardless of how the practice time is split between offense and defense, IMO it's an absolute wash if we're spending multiple hours of practice time focused on offensive sets and getting open baskets, if we can't prevent a back door cut for a lay up or deny an open look on the perimeter.

I love our offense and the fact we put up points, but at the same time I love watching good/great defense. We can run and gun for 40 minutes and that wouldn't bother me a bit, however at the end of the day you have to make stops. IMO at the end of the day, any open looks or easy baskets were giving up is just as important in the first 38 minutes as they would be in the last 2 minutes when ever possession matters.

 

[HaydenHawk56]

In Franuary, practicing defense is for suckas. Might as well play kickball.

 

[VTHawk]

Whether we're ranked #1 offensively or top 25 we'd still be playing exciting offensive basketball. I don't know what goes on in practice so I'm not even going to venture as to whether working more on defense would affect our timing on offense.

That said, regardless of how the practice time is split between offense and defense, IMO it's an absolute wash if we're spending multiple hours of practice time focused on offensive sets and getting open baskets, if we can't prevent a back door cut for a lay up or deny an open look on the perimeter.

I love our offense and the fact we put up points, but at the same time I love watching good/great defense. We can run and gun for 40 minutes and that wouldn't bother me a bit, however at the end of the day you have to make stops. IMO at the end of the day, any open looks or easy baskets were giving up is just as important in the first 38 minutes as they would be in the last 2 minutes when ever possession matters.

Thanks for that. I was waiting for someone to chime in about getting stops.

 

[verlandj]

I have really enjoyed all the different views on this. The thing i keep seeing and i must agree wholeheartedly is the lack of athleticism we have that makes it impossible for us to pressure teams that are so much faster than us. Tonights game really exemplified that, once Toussant, Perkins, and Murray were put in in the first half, it totally changed the flow of the game. I think our defense is going to be much stronger in the future. however, i saw a lot of uncontested shots tonight (luckily Mich State missed several of them). It's not like the offense has 6 guys and the defense only has 5, and considering that these guys are just standing there not even moving, that doesn't take much athleticism to guard them. I completely understand that with the makeup of this team that we can't keep up with some of these speedsters but my pet peeve is these totally open uncontested shots we give up. Oh well, I'm just thankful that we have such a good offense that we overcome that, most of the time anyway.... and i know that these guys are working heart and soul, and i LOVE watching them!

 

[oregonhawkeye]

It should be noted that the second team (Nunge/Murray/JoeT/Patrick/Perkins) is obviously superior defensive squad.
It's not just about practice. Who you put on the floor matters.

 

[PCHawk]

If basketball was like football where you had different players for offense and defense, we might have the best roster in the nation. Put in our starters on offense and our bench on defense and we could kick the shit out of Baylor.

 

[Bigtenchamp]

The lack of defense frustrates me. Our bench plays better defense because they have more lateral quickness - but this alone isn't the complete issue.

You don't have to be a great athlete to be an effective defender... its more of a mentality than anything. knowing when and how to get in a players space, hedging your bets when to jump at them or fall back, knowing how to ride their hip without fouling. Not helping too quick and leaving people wide open.

Closing out but still being too far away from the shooter to really get in their way- defense is really subtle at times. You can play against certain people and they just don't give you anything - they don't let you have space or get to your strenghts.

It really is about being "Scrappy".... Bohannon gets a lot of grief for his defense.. but CJ and Wiescamp aren't any better. Joe has some length so he can block some shots.. but he is half assed at closing on shooters... and he has poor balance and is easy to beat laterally. He defends like a tall lanky guy.. not a quick guard. Cj is also no good at closing out on shooters...he runs out and sticks his hand up.. but the shooters still has a lot of space and hits it him - then he looks around like "i had my hand up" Some of it could be coaching.. but defense honestly doesn't really all come from coaching.

I just don't see the mentality - i hear them talking the talk.. but then when game time comes. I just don't see them grinding and doing every last thing they can to disrupt the ohter team. Their defense is "token" and lacking actual intenisty.

Luka is a good shot blocker but if he is guarding anyone outside 10 feet. They own him.

It;s a combination of different things.. but honestly most of it falls on the players and not fran. They need to take it more seriously then i see them - otherwise they wont win shit.

Edit: some of frans defense (like the half court trap) is also an issue as it leaves a lot of wide open 3's.... frans strategy is a factor.

 

[kicker22]

The lack of defense frustrates me. Our bench plays better defense because they have more lateral quickness - but this alone isn't the complete issue.

You don't have to be a great athlete to be an effective defender... its more of a mentality than anything. knowing when and how to get in a players space, hedging your bets when to jump at them or fall back, knowing how to ride their hip without fouling. Not helping too quick and leaving people wide open.

Closing out but still being too far away from the shooter to really get in their way- defense is really subtle at times. You can play against certain people and they just don't give you anything - they don't let you have space or get to your strenghts.

It really is about being "Scrappy".... Bohannon gets a lot of grief for his defense.. but CJ and Wiescamp aren't any better. Joe has some length so he can block some shots.. but he is half assed at closing on shooters... and he has poor balance and is easy to beat laterally. He defends like a tall lanky guy.. not a quick guard. Cj is also no good at closing out on shooters...he runs out and sticks his hand up.. but the shooters still has a lot of space and hits it him - then he looks around like "i had my hand up" Some of it could be coaching.. but defense honestly doesn't really all come from coaching.

I just don't see the mentality - i hear them talking the talk.. but then when game time comes. I just don't see them grinding and doing every last thing they can to disrupt the ohter team. Their defense is "token" and lacking actual intenisty.

Luka is a good shot blocker but if he is guarding anyone outside 10 feet. They own him.

It;s a combination of different things.. but honestly most of it falls on the players and not fran. They need to take it more seriously then i see them - otherwise they wont win shit.

Edit: some of frans defense (like the half court trap) is also an issue as it leaves a lot of wide open 3's.... frans strategy is a factor.

I agree with most of this with the exception of it falling on the players and not on Fran. Fran is the biggest factor in this as he controls playing time and the culture of the program. I'd love to see him do what he did last night where he went with the bench who were playing their tails off down the stretch, and then inserting his "shooters" back into the game when points were needed. I absolutely loved that JBo was brought back into the game to shoot the free throws but that down the stretch he remained on the bench until absolutely needed.

If Fran were serious about defense improving we'd see this much more often. Fran's culture and identity has been proven to be about offense. It's a monster he's created that defense isn't as highly regarded within the program. If he's serious about change that change has to come from the top.

 

[Ree4]

I have really enjoyed all the different views on this. The thing i keep seeing and i must agree wholeheartedly is the lack of athleticism we have that makes it impossible for us to pressure teams that are so much faster than us. Tonights game really exemplified that, once Toussant, Perkins, and Murray were put in in the first half, it totally changed the flow of the game. I think our defense is going to be much stronger in the future. however, i saw a lot of uncontested shots tonight (luckily Mich State missed several of them). It's not like the offense has 6 guys and the defense only has 5, and considering that these guys are just standing there not even moving, that doesn't take much athleticism to guard them. I completely understand that with the makeup of this team that we can't keep up with some of these speedsters but my pet peeve is these totally open uncontested shots we give up. Oh well, I'm just thankful that we have such a good offense that we overcome that, most of the time anyway.... and i know that these guys are working heart and soul, and i LOVE watching them!

My biggest pet peeve is watching a wide open dude in the corner have two guys charge at him late, not only is it an open three but if he misses there's nobody left to rebound. Saw it a few times last night.

 

[kicker22]

I see Iowa's defense as being almost completely reactionary. They aren't playing the type of team defense that limits opponents options, but rather reacting to what the offense is doing. IMO everything is a step late because they aren't taking options away restricting options and then reacting to where the ball goes.
Good/great defense dictate what the offenses do against them. Ours lets the opponents offense dictate what we do defensively.

 

[PCHawk]

This isn't a defense of our defense because it was once again bad at the beginning of the game. But I think people are confusing MSU being a bad shooting team with them being bad at finding open shots. They are still one of the most athletic teams around so they have no problem finding shots. They just can't make them. Watching them shooting the ball lately has been almost comical. They miss wide open shot after wide open shot after wide open layup. They got hot for 5 minutes against us. After that it was brick city like they always do.

 

[Dadman]

My biggest pet peeve is watching a wide open dude in the corner have two guys charge at him late, not only is it an open three but if he misses there's nobody left to rebound. Saw it a few times last night.

It is an enigma- I saw this too, and I could swear they had panic looks, thinking they are going to get there before the 3 is launched. Yet, other teams seem to stick with our shooters like glue.

 

[Luftgekuehlt67]

Here is something else to keep in mind. You have to realize, if a very average D1 player dropped into your average pick up game (i.e. I'm not talking about the pick up games full of NBA hall of famers that MJ arranged on the set of Space Jam here), they would absolutely dominate on the offensive end. As in, score at will. I have a bit of court time playing with/against ex-D1 guys...if you haven't had that experience yourself, the only thing I can say is "wow". Size, strength, quickness, ball skills, court awareness, etc. It's all other-worldly compared to your average pick up game baller (and my experience was against mid-major and walk-on/bench warmer P5 type guys...P5 starter level talent has to be mind bending).

Now, if the other team also has an average D1 guy, assuming a good size matchup, ok now we've got a game. Match those two guys up and the other 8 of us all focus on trying to feed our team's D1 guy the ball and become glorified spectators (and, yes, I've done exactly this - it was awesome!). You'll see both guys having to work for it - some good plays on both the offensive and defensive end.

So this has all been "average" D1 guys, right? Let's say we want to completely confound one of these "average" D1 guys on the offensive end they way one of the average D1 guys can completely confound any of the pick up hacks. It can be done and those "stopper" guys certainly exist, but we're now talking about a doubly unique set of skills - they check all the basic boxes that your average D1 player does and also brings a little something extra on the defensive end. These "something extra" guys don't grow on trees - defensively or offensively. Guys who do both exceptionally are even rarer.

Coaches now, as ever, are having to make compromises. And if you think teaching/coaching the "little something extra on the defensive end" shouldn't be difficult...have you ever seen Shaq shoot free throws? Do you know how many untold hours and thousands of dollars of specialized coaching was thrown at Shaq's FT technique for essentially nil results? He's a highly athletic guy who just can't do something as simple and easy as hitting 6 out of 10 free throws. Playing defense is way, way, WAY more complicated and multifaceted (mentally and physically) than shooting a free throw. How much effort do you think it would take to turn an average defender into a stopper? In some cases, the answer is going to end up being "infinite". And keep in mind we're not talking about a set of guys who have just never had "Playing Defense 101". These guys have all been consistently coached and drilled in defensive fundamentals for as long as they can remember.

 

[Knight78]

Coaches now, as ever, are having to make compromises. And if you think teaching/coaching the "little something extra on the defensive end" shouldn't be difficult...have you ever seen Shaq shoot free throws? Do you know how many untold hours and thousands of dollars of specialized coaching was thrown at Shaq's FT technique for essentially nil results? He's a highly athletic guy who just can't do something as simple and easy as hitting 6 out of 10 free throws. Playing defense is way, way, WAY more complicated and multifaceted (mentally and physically) than shooting a free throw. How much effort do you think it would take to turn an average defender into a stopper? In some cases, the answer is going to end up being "infinite". And keep in mind we're not talking about a set of guys who have just never had "Playing Defense 101". These guys have all been consistently coached and drilled in defensive fundamentals for as long as they can remember.

Saying that about Shaq's free throws reminded me of a 1980's Sports Illustrated article about free throw shooting. It basically said that guys like Larry Bird shoot free throws and guys like Chris Dudley shoot foul shots.

 

[smitharooney]

not start five slow white guys????