Why does Iowa play in so many close games?

[RocknRollface]

Florida and Oklahoma are poor examples because both of their implementations of the spread still implemented plenty of balance ... thereby creating blockers who were more "balanced."

You have to dig deeper than just the scheme itself ... but rather the philosophy of WHY coaches do what they do. Many coaches place more emphasis on scheme and the use of "gimmicks" ... and they do so in order to try to gain an advantage. However, in so doing, they often place LESS emphasis than they should on FUNDAMENTALS. In many respects, coaches often unknowingly implement schemes simply because they're not good at coaching some of the fundamentals ... and thus, their choice of scheme compensates for their own coaching deficiencies.

This goes back to why Iowa has so many guys in the NFL. The Iowa coaches are REALLY GOOD teachers. They emphasize fundamentals and they teach a brand of football that translates really well to the NFL. Some of the other teams have had less luck placing guys in the pros NOT because of a lack of talent as much as the fact that players simply aren't as well-rounded or as sound fundamentally.

I think that is part of the reason why Indiana was better under Hoepner and why Northwestern has been better under Fitz. Hoepner was an excellent coach who was more than just a "scheme"-guy. Similarly, Fitz was pretty strongly influenced by Barnett and Okruch (if memory serves) ... and both of those guys were pretty good at emphasizing fundamentals.

Florida, under Myer had as gimmicky of an offense as you can get and they had no trouble having guys drafted.

The fact is that the discrepancy in talent between Iowa and the teams in question is not due to the difference in schemes. Thats an insignificant factor.

None of the teams in question are doing anything crazy with the Oline like a Mike Leach or Paul Johnson and even if that argument held some water it only applies to less than 1/3 of the total starters.

Its the simplest explanation that applies here.

Iowa recruits better and develops much better that is the explanation.

 

[olddude]

Alright guys, lets not confuse getting lucky with a solid program here (homer has it right). Like I have said before, if you want to bet the blind mans odds, then by all means go for a spread team. I think of read option as the spread also.
And yes I would rather the Hawks be good than lucky.
Like I said the spread has taken down good programs and given less talented ones a shot. The odds of that shot can be debated for ever, but it does not change the facts. It is a gamble and it has taken down more historic and sound programs than any other thing in ncaa D1 ball.

 

[olddude]

I remember having a discussion about the spread with you a couple weeks back, where we were on two complete opposite sides of the spectrum. I certainly respect that you have an opinion that is diametrically opposite of mine...but the below paragraph is laughable.



Just to make sure I'm understanding this correctly, running a spread offense demonstrates a lack of caring for the kids that play for you?

A coach is paid a boatload of money to win football games...his job is not to get players ready for the NFL. He recruits players that fit his system...these kids aren't assigned to the coaches. If he has a kid who is NFL material on his team, it's because that kid decided to come to that school, knowing full well what that entailed.

My point was a RB, trains for years to run the ball. A QB does not. Lack of training almost always leads to injuries. Do you really think it's cool to put Dennards health and career at risk asking him to do what others are not only better built to do but who have been training to do that one thing for a very long time? I think yes it does show a certain lack of responsability to ask a smaller player to work with the QB coach so you can throw, then go work with the RB coach so you can run, in some cases work with the reciever coach so you can line up. That is why the spread is designed to make it so a less talented (across the board) team can compete. It relies on a few talented people. Name me 1 just one spread team that could sustain the amount of injuries the Hawks had last year and even be bowl bound, not to mention getting lined up against a ranked team and not to mention beating them. Yes it is depth, but it is talent at THAT POSITION that matters. How do kids get to be the best at one position? When Stanzi went down Vandy as a fr took OSU to OT. What happens last year if Cam goes down?

 

[ShockRerun]

Nebraska actually didn't go to the "spread" under Cally ... in fact, they opted to a very NFL-friendly pro-set west-coast style O. The problem was that that was a huge deviation from the option-style hard-core running attack (out of the I-formation, no less) that they implemented under Osborn and Solich. It was considered pretty controversial, at the time, for them to actually transition to a more pass-happy O.

The Huskers got knocked down a peg or two NOT only because of the radical paridigm shift on O ... but also because of 3 other significant factors. One thing was that they just weren't as strong on D ... and that was arguably one of the biggest problems they had ... that is single-handedly the biggest reason why Osborn tapped a more D-mined coach like Pelini. Another factor was that Cally was an idiot and killed the very strong and successful walk-on program that the Huskers had. Lastly, Cally and the AD at the time were idiots and alienated the Husker family by making the program less accessible to Husker greats and alums.

Anyhow, the thing that I really love about the Hawkeye program is simply how it is run. I love the emphasis on development and teaching. I love the emphasis on a balanced O and a strong D. I love the emphasis on fundamentals. All those are factors that have helped the program to be so stable under Ferentz. In my mind, the program is being run the "right way" .... and I really wouldn't want it any other way.

I agree, iowa is run the right way with fundamentals, the fundamentals dont change when the system does.

 

[olddude]

I agree, iowa is run the right way with fundamentals, the fundamentals dont change when the system does.

You are kidding right??

 

[ShockRerun]

Alright guys, lets not confuse getting lucky with a solid program here (homer has it right). Like I have said before, if you want to bet the blind mans odds, then by all means go for a spread team. I think of read option as the spread also.
And yes I would rather the Hawks be good than lucky.
Like I said the spread has taken down good programs and given less talented ones a shot. The odds of that shot can be debated for ever, but it does not change the facts. It is a gamble and it has taken down more historic and sound programs than any other thing in ncaa D1 ball.

So Florida "got lucky" twice in 3 years. It is not luck it is playing the best you can with the players you have. These spread teams seem to keep lucking into championships, it must be totally random that they keep winning.

 

[ShockRerun]

You are kidding right??

you still block, tackle, run, catch, pass, kick, ect... good fundamentals dont require an i-formation

 

[hawkfan2679]

My point was a RB, trains for years to run the ball. A QB does not. Lack of training almost always leads to injuries. Do you really think it's cool to put Dennards health and career at risk asking him to do what others are not only better built to do but who have been training to do that one thing for a very long time? I think yes it does show a certain lack of responsability to ask a smaller player to work with the QB coach so you can throw, then go work with the RB coach so you can run, in some cases work with the reciever coach so you can line up. That is why the spread is designed to make it so a less talented (across the board) team can compete. It relies on a few talented people. Name me 1 just one spread team that could sustain the amount of injuries the Hawks had last year and even be bowl bound, not to mention getting lined up against a ranked team and not to mention beating them.

You lost me a little bit with the bold...not sure what you mean. The QB works with the QB coach. The only time he'd work with RB's and WR's are in group time (generally).

Denard is putting Denard's health and career at risk...you don't think that RichRod told Pat White and Denard both to get down when the possibility of being tackled is high? Those guys are ballplayers, and even a substantial amount of coaching is going to be tough to reverse what they've developed over the course of their playing career. I think Denard would have been ok last year if RichRod didn't use him so much. Plus, Denard knew what kind of offense he'd be running when he committed to Michigan. It's not like he came in expecting to run a power-I or a chuck-n-duck offense...the QB runs in RichRod's system, and that's when it's most efficient.

Is it any different that Iowa recruits high school QB's and puts them at different positions on defense? Asking a kid who has played only QB in high school to move to the other side of the ball and cover/tackle people...aren't they running the same risk?

If the injuries were in the same position as Iowa's, there are probably quite a few spread teams that would have been able to get to that level. Most of our injuries were on the defensive side (G and RB notwithstanding).

 

[olddude]

Shock if you can not see that when T-mart went down, so did Nebby or when Persa went down so did NU, the same way that if Cam or Dennard went down and classify that as riding the odds, I dont know what else to say about it.

As for fundamentals. When you run a read option, the RB is more of a blocker, not a ball carrier, when you defend a spread your LB's cover more, jam and run. So yes the fundamentals for some positions change with the scheme.

 

[olddude]

You lost me a little bit with the bold...not sure what you mean. The QB works with the QB coach. The only time he'd work with RB's and WR's are in group time (generally).

Denard is putting Denard's health and career at risk...you don't think that RichRod told Pat White and Denard both to get down when the possibility of being tackled is high? Those guys are ballplayers, and even a substantial amount of coaching is going to be tough to reverse what they've developed over the course of their playing career. I think Denard would have been ok last year if RichRod didn't use him so much. Plus, Denard knew what kind of offense he'd be running when he committed to Michigan. It's not like he came in expecting to run a power-I or a chuck-n-duck offense...the QB runs in RichRod's system, and that's when it's most efficient.

Is it any different that Iowa recruits high school QB's and puts them at different positions on defense? Asking a kid who has played only QB in high school to move to the other side of the ball and cover/tackle people...aren't they running the same risk?

If the injuries were in the same position as Iowa's, there are probably quite a few spread teams that would have been able to get to that level. Most of our injuries were on the defensive side (G and RB notwithstanding).

So now you have a runner who is not "trained" to do so? Good idea, I bet you dont trust your brake job on your car to someone who does not have the training or experience to do so. When and if we take a kid who has ever just played one spot and move him, how often do we put him out there as a fr, then expect him to carry the whole team? Running the spread IS PLAYING THE ODDS. Those odds are only favorable if 1 or 2 kids do not sustain an injury. The odds go WAY down if they do get injuried. So yes you could say you are gaining those odds by risking the health of a player or two. I am not retarded I understand no body wants a kid to get hurt and any team will suffer with a couple key injuries. But the Hawks do not gain in odds by over exposing 1 or 2 players, like the spread teams do.

 

[hawkfan2679]

Shock if you can not see that when T-mart went down, so did Nebby or when Persa went down so did NU, the same way that if Cam or Dennard went down and classify that as riding the odds, I dont know what else to say about it.

I must have missed the part where Stanzi missed substantial time last year. You asked for spread teams sustaining injuries to the extent Iowa did...Iowa didn't lose their QB.

As for fundamentals. When you run a read option, the RB is more of a blocker, not a ball carrier, when you defend a spread your LB's cover more, jam and run. So yes the fundamentals for some positions change with the scheme.

In a true read option, the QB is putting the ball in the belly of the RB and reading the end to the read side...I don't know where the concept of a running back being more of a blocker comes from. He's either the ball-carrier or he's carrying out a fake...

 

[hawkfan2679]

So now you have a runner who is not "trained" to do so? Good idea, I bet you dont trust your brake job on your car to someone who does not have the training or experience to do so. When and if we take a kid who has ever just played one spot and move him, how often do we put him out there as a fr, then expect him to carry the whole team?

DRob has been running since high school...what training are you looking for? A guy had to play RB in high school to be properly trained in your eyes? The guy was a QB in high school, played in a system where he ran the ball quite a bit, and now went onto a school that plays a similar style of ball. If anything, he's more than adequately "trained" as opposed to "not trained".

How often has Ferentz had a freshman that had the ability to carry the whole team? He had a chance to give Coker reps last year and didn't do it...

 

[DexterMorgan]

Shock if you can not see that when T-mart went down, so did Nebby or when Persa went down so did NU, the same way that if Cam or Dennard went down and classify that as riding the odds, I dont know what else to say about it.

As for fundamentals. When you run a read option, the RB is more of a blocker, not a ball carrier, when you defend a spread your LB's cover more, jam and run. So yes the fundamentals for some positions change with the scheme.

and when Stanzi went down, so did Iowa.

 

[ShockRerun]

Most teams suffer if they lose their QB, If you have an impact player go down and your team doesnt suffer, it is because of good back ups not formations.

 

[olddude]

DRob has been running since high school...what training are you looking for? A guy had to play RB in high school to be properly trained in your eyes? The guy was a QB in high school, played in a system where he ran the ball quite a bit, and now went onto a school that plays a similar style of ball. If anything, he's more than adequately "trained" as opposed to "not trained".

How often has Ferentz had a freshman that had the ability to carry the whole team? He had a chance to give Coker reps last year and didn't do it...

Ok running in HS is not the same as D1. If it is we better fire all RB coaches, infact fire all college coaches except head coaches. That is why KF tries not to call upon fr. They need to train and be taught. I think many fr could come in and make an impact . But with out training and some gradual experience, their risk factor would be thru the roof.

 

[olddude]

Most teams suffer if they lose their QB, If you have an impact player go down and your team doesnt suffer, it is because of good back ups not formations.

Right but had Stanzi gone down 1st game and had tmartdennardcam gone down first game, I like our record better, dont you? I said it hurts any team, the whole thing is I think a key loss (not just QB) in a spread team hurts more, thereby making it harder to win the rest of the season.

 

[hawkfan2679]

Ok running in HS is not the same as D1. If it is we better fire all RB coaches, infact fire all college coaches except head coaches. That is why KF tries not to call upon fr. They need to train and be taught. I think many fr could come in and make an impact . But with out training and some gradual experience, their risk factor would be thru the roof.

So how is it ok for both a RB and QB to run the ball in high school, but when it comes to D1 football only the RB is considered "trained" to run the ball?

 

[ShockRerun]

Right but had Stanzi gone down 1st game and had tmartdennardcam gone down first game, I like our record better, dont you? I said it hurts any team, the whole thing is I think a key loss (not just QB) in a spread team hurts more, thereby making it harder to win the rest of the season.

so pro style is just a plug and play system that functions regardless of talent?