Whatever Happened To Iowa's Counter Run Play!?

[MelroseHawkins]

That run play was always a staple in the Iowa playbook and quite effective. Shon Greene ran it to perfection. We just haven't seen it all too much the past few years. Is it because Stanley is out of the shotgun more? I think they need to go against the grain of the blocking on occasion.

I think Iowa had a more potent running game when the QB was under center. Another observation I have is I don't think the RB's are lining up as far back from the LOS as they used to. I wonder if they are hitting the holes too fast and not letting the blocking open the holes. Go back and YouTube Fred Russell and Shon Greene and look how far back they are from the LOS, a good 7-8 yrds. I think this is also due to the Iowa QB's taking the snap more in the shot gun then under center. But, when the RB's were back that far, that gave time for the line to open up the holes and the RB could hit the holes with some decent burst or speed. Now they seem to just kind of hit the holes tentatively like they are waiting for the sea to spread and most times is does not.

I think the Iowa coaches need to evaluate this to see if spacing is a problem.

 

[HawkGold]

With all the blitzes, QB doesn't get set up without the sg.

Spacing can't be done well with opponents D bringing the house on many plays. The opposing D's aren't trying to tackle, they are moving the line with LB's filling the spaces.

The coaches certainly know this.

Eddie P wanted to say the word "stupid" so much when describing Iowa later in the game trying to run into this scenario.

KF is what he is. At least Iowa is winning games without being perfect due to better players.

I'd be more concerned about mom's of players who are giving their all against very tough odds and getting hit hard repeatedly than I would a dad/brother being upset about not enough plays or enough balls tossed his way.

Think about what Jewell gave to the team on their way to a 7-5 regular season.

 

[uihawk82]

That run play was always a staple in the Iowa playbook and quite effective. Shon Greene ran it to perfection. We just haven't seen it all too much the past few years. Is it because Stanley is out of the shotgun more? I think they need to go against the grain of the blocking on occasion.

I think Iowa had a more potent running game when the QB was under center. Another observation I have is I don't think the RB's are lining up as far back from the LOS as they used to. I wonder if they are hitting the holes too fast and not letting the blocking open the holes. Go back and YouTube Fred Russell and Shon Greene and look how far back they are from the LOS, a good 7-8 yrds. I think this is also due to the Iowa QB's taking the snap more in the shot gun then under center. But, when the RB's were back that far, that gave time for the line to open up the holes and the RB could hit the holes with some decent burst or speed. Now they seem to just kind of hit the holes tentatively like they are waiting for the sea to spread and most times is does not.

I think the Iowa coaches need to evaluate this to see if spacing is a problem.

Fred Russell, Jermelle Lewis, Albert Young could really cut back, yes they started deeper in the backfield and the QB was not in shotgun as much back then unless obvious passing down or 2004 when we lost all the running backs.

Some running backs have the ability to plant a foot or two and reverse course in the outside zone running scheme and find a backside hole. I dont know if that is a Toren Young strength but IKM and Sargent are a little lower to the ground I think and might be able to do it.

If you look at a lot of normal outside zone runs against Minny there were holes the RBs could have cut back into outside the tackle box to gain some more yards yet they strung it outside. I think if the coaches get the RBs into taking that first good hole and cutting back they might at least get a couple more yards per run which is good and maybe bust one going against the grain.

As to your point on the counter play type run they are using it a couple times a game by Nate starting the handoff point to one direction, RB shades to that direction, but then the handoff etc goes back the other way which was one of KOKs style of counter play, like the way the old Washington Redskins ran their counter trey blocking.

 

[CP87]

That run play was always a staple in the Iowa playbook and quite effective. Shon Greene ran it to perfection. We just haven't seen it all too much the past few years. Is it because Stanley is out of the shotgun more? I think they need to go against the grain of the blocking on occasion.

I think Iowa had a more potent running game when the QB was under center. Another observation I have is I don't think the RB's are lining up as far back from the LOS as they used to. I wonder if they are hitting the holes too fast and not letting the blocking open the holes. Go back and YouTube Fred Russell and Shon Greene and look how far back they are from the LOS, a good 7-8 yrds. I think this is also due to the Iowa QB's taking the snap more in the shot gun then under center. But, when the RB's were back that far, that gave time for the line to open up the holes and the RB could hit the holes with some decent burst or speed. Now they seem to just kind of hit the holes tentatively like they are waiting for the sea to spread and most times is does not.

I think the Iowa coaches need to evaluate this to see if spacing is a problem.

What kind of counter are you talking about here? It seems like you are describing inside zone (flow goes one way, OL gets vertical and creates a natural cutback crease), but the term counter generally refers to backfield action starting one way (jab step), and then reversing with several pulling blockers. Which one do you feel we haven't seen?

I posted these videos in another thread, but I will add them here as well:

At 3:23 in the 2016 video you can see a great example of IZ with a cutback.

At about 3:25 in the 2015 video, you can see an IZ look, but the QB actually hands on the opposite side of initial action. It is still blocked like IZ, but with different backfield action. Maybe someone smarter than I (like @hawkfan2679 ) can explain what is going on here, or at least know what this play is called.

You can see more of a counter look at 4:59 and 6:26 in the 2016 video. I am not sure how much of that look we have seen this year.

 

[CP87]

 

[PCHawk]

That run play was always a staple in the Iowa playbook and quite effective. Shon Greene ran it to perfection. We just haven't seen it all too much the past few years. Is it because Stanley is out of the shotgun more? I think they need to go against the grain of the blocking on occasion.

I think Iowa had a more potent running game when the QB was under center. Another observation I have is I don't think the RB's are lining up as far back from the LOS as they used to. I wonder if they are hitting the holes too fast and not letting the blocking open the holes. Go back and YouTube Fred Russell and Shon Greene and look how far back they are from the LOS, a good 7-8 yrds. I think this is also due to the Iowa QB's taking the snap more in the shot gun then under center. But, when the RB's were back that far, that gave time for the line to open up the holes and the RB could hit the holes with some decent burst or speed. Now they seem to just kind of hit the holes tentatively like they are waiting for the sea to spread and most times is does not.

I think the Iowa coaches need to evaluate this to see if spacing is a problem.

Dude we just ran a trick play last game. How many do you need to see in a game?

 

[MelroseHawkins]

What kind of counter are you talking about here? It seems like you are describing inside zone (flow goes one way, OL gets vertical and creates a natural cutback crease), but the term counter generally refers to backfield action starting one way (jab step), and then reversing with several pulling blockers. Which one do you feel we haven't seen?

I posted these videos in another thread, but I will add them here as well:

At 3:23 in the 2016 video you can see a great example of IZ with a cutback.

At about 3:25 in the 2015 video, you can see an IZ look, but the QB actually hands on the opposite side of initial action. It is still blocked like IZ, but with different backfield action. Maybe someone smarter than I (like @hawkfan2679 ) can explain what is going on here, or at least know what this play is called.

You can see more of a counter look at 4:59 and 6:26 in the 2016 video. I am not sure how much of that look we have seen this year.

I'm referring to the jab step one way by the RB, ala Shonn Greene back in the day did it perfect. He'd sell it to the R and get the LB's flowing that way than cut hard to L with ball.

 

[Healzya]

If you look at a lot of normal outside zone runs against Minny there were holes the RBs could have cut back into outside the tackle box to gain some more yards yet they strung it outside. I think if the coaches get the RBs into taking that first good hole and cutting back they might at least get a couple more yards per run which is good and maybe bust one going against the grain.

This.

Young RBs not seeing the cutback lanes on zone blocking stretch plays. Against Minny there were multiple opportunities to cutback to the reverse side of the play. Coaches probably telling them to follow the blockers instead of trying to find their own hole.

 

[Hawkfnntn]

This.

Young RBs not seeing the cutback lanes on zone blocking stretch plays. Against Minny there were multiple opportunities to cutback to the reverse side of the play. Coaches probably telling them to follow the blockers instead of trying to find their own hole.

Vision is what separates the good from the great RBs. You can be the fastest guy out there but if your running into the back of your blockers instead of to daylight when it's there.... Sometimes you have to anticipate where the cutback will be too by reading the flow of the D as well. I think Taylor for Wisconsin is pretty darn good at that...

I think that a detriment to having a 3 headed RB corp (one where they are all young and fairly inexperienced as well) is that none of them get into enough of groove of getting a feel for the game. IKM did get 20 touches this week but even still it seemed like the majority of his touches were on just a few possessions. Sure their all fresh late in games and there's a ton to be said about that as well. But I think there's a bit of a yin and yang to the strategy of it.

 

[homes]

It's not all on the OL, the RB aren't finding the holes at times. I'm sure some of it can be taught, but a lot of it is instinctive.

 

[uihawk82]

Vision is what separates the good from the great RBs. You can be the fastest guy out there but if your running into the back of your blockers instead of to daylight when it's there.... gy of it.

And I swear Akrum Wadley could see out the earhole of his helmet or he must have had uncanny awareness like some other running backs or hear tacklers because he would make moves to elude tacklers that it seemed he would have no idea were there.

 

[Hawkfnntn]

It's not all on the OL, the RB aren't finding the holes at times. I'm sure some of it can be taught, but a lot of it is instinctive.

It truly is. Coaches can watch film with them till their blue in the face too but if your not able to see it/anticipate it in the moment it just don't matter. It's a fast game those lanes open and close quickly.

 

[CP87]

And I swear Akrum Wadley could see out the earhole of his helmet or he must have had uncanny awareness like some other running backs or hear tacklers because he would make moves to elude tacklers that it seemed he would have no idea were there.

But even he was averaging 3.5 yds/carry through 5 games last year. These does seem to be something beyond RB quality at work. Not sure if it is OL specific, or schematic.

On a positive note, OL pass pro has been pretty darn good.

 

[Northside Hawk]

We used counter regularly in 2015 with good success. Canzeri's long TD run against Illinois, either Daniels or Wadley, can't remember which early against Indiana, Daniels to seal the Minnesota game, those were all counter plays.

If we're running the short side zone play into a stacked box, someone isn't staying at home and protecting the back side. Break a couple wide side counter plays and they will.

 

[BVHawk95]

We used counter regularly in 2015 with good success. Canzeri's long TD run against Illinois, either Daniels or Wadley, can't remember which early against Indiana, Daniels to seal the Minnesota game, those were all counter plays.

If we're running the short side zone play into a stacked box, someone isn't staying at home and protecting the back side. Break a couple wide side counter plays and they will.

You're mistaken on those. Canzeri's long run against Illinois was a 1-back power he cutback to the right. Daniels first TD against Indiana was a power play he bounced to the outside, and Wadley's was a HB Draw with a fullback lead blocking that he made a great move on to get to the outside. Daniels against Minnesota was an inside zone that Minny was selling out on, and thus had no safety help at the second level. FB and C make great blocks, Daniels puts a move on the safety coming up to fill, and he's off to the races.

You are correct that we used to run more counter plays, but I believe you're mistaking cutbacks or bouncing outside for true counter action.

If I had more time, I'd provide video examples, but I cannot right now. I will later if you'd like to see them.

 

[Northside Hawk]

You're mistaken on those. Canzeri's long run against Illinois was a 1-back power he cutback to the right. Daniels first TD against Indiana was a power play he bounced to the outside, and Wadley's was a HB Draw with a fullback lead blocking that he made a great move on to get to the outside. Daniels against Minnesota was an inside zone that Minny was selling out on, and thus had no safety help at the second level. FB and C make great blocks, Daniels puts a move on the safety coming up to fill, and he's off to the races.

You are correct that we used to run more counter plays, but I believe you're mistaking cutbacks or bouncing outside for true counter action.

If I had more time, I'd provide video examples, but I cannot right now. I will later if you'd like to see them.

The reason there was no safety help on the Daniels Minnesota run was because he was held and we got away with it.

The Canzeri run sure looked like a counter. The flow went left, Illinois went with it and Canzeri went directly where the weakside contain should have been. He wasn't touched.

I'd like to see them again myself but wouldn't doubt if you're more correct than I am.

 

[CP87]

You're mistaken on those. Canzeri's long run against Illinois was a 1-back power he cutback to the right. Daniels first TD against Indiana was a power play he bounced to the outside, and Wadley's was a HB Draw with a fullback lead blocking that he made a great move on to get to the outside. Daniels against Minnesota was an inside zone that Minny was selling out on, and thus had no safety help at the second level. FB and C make great blocks, Daniels puts a move on the safety coming up to fill, and he's off to the races.

You are correct that we used to run more counter plays, but I believe you're mistaking cutbacks or bouncing outside for true counter action.

If I had more time, I'd provide video examples, but I cannot right now. I will later if you'd like to see them.

Thanks. Having watched quickly through the '15 and '16 highlight videos above, I noticed more counter in the 2016 season than 2015.

Here is one:

Here is power, but it got bounced outside and kind of looks like counter:

 

[BVHawk95]

Thanks. Having watched quickly through the '15 and '16 highlight videos above, I noticed more counter in the 2016 season than 2015.

Here is one:

Here is power, but it got bounced outside and kind of looks like counter:

Actually I think the first one is trap. Welsh pulls and buries the 3-tech while the LG and LT ignore him and climb to the backers, and the TE hinges the DE.

 

[CP87]

Actually I think the first one is trap. Welsh pulls and buries the 3-tech while the LG and LT ignore him and climb to the backers, and the TE hinges the DE.

What do you call this?

 

[BVHawk95]

What do you call this?

I want to say misdirection, considering the line full zones to the right, but Hillyer comes to crack back on the OLB (and does a damn good job of it). Basically counter out of zone action.

Thing is, I'm just going off the terminology I've used over the years. To me, counter action involves the back opening his hips to show one direction, then getting the handoff in the opposite directon, along with a pulling lineman or a fullback kicking out the defensive end or the linebacker. Basically power with a fake step before the handoff.