What are the measurables to be a Great FB coach?
- Thread starter uihawk82
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okeefe4prez
Well-Known Member
Great? Great is limited to guys like Nick and the Bear. Maybe Bobby Bowden deserves recognition as well. But greatness is pretty elusive.
Nick Saban and Bear Bryant have both won about 78% of their career games. You don't think they are great coaches?
HawkeyeWalker
Well-Known Member
85 is a really high %. in a successful 2-4 year stretch, sure, but in a tenure...that would be crazy good. I would guess 75% and some championships in any 7+ year tenure puts you in pretty rare space.
okeefe4prez
Well-Known Member
Nick spent some time at inferior programs like Michigan State and Louisiana State that pulled his total down. If he wasn't winning at least 85% of his games these days I would demand change. I had given up on him after Dabo got the best of him, but was rewarded with another title for the program's patience soon thereafter. Bear coached at Maryland, Kentucky and Texas A&M, all garbage programs. But his run with the Tide - that is what a college football coach should strive for. Bear had a bad year in his first and last year at Bama, with an embarrassing 8-4 performance to put the end cap on his career. He was pretty bad in '69 and '70 as well, but we stuck with him.
"Measureables" are a part of the equation, but things like win percentage and championships are not the only indicators of a coaches quality. I think most posters here have an appreciation for the work Bill Snyder has done at Kansas State. I certainly would consider him a Hall of Fame College Football coach. But on "measurables" alone, he would fall short of what some consider great. If you subtract his first two years which he went 6-16, his win percentage is a little over 68% which is really good, but not great. He has won 2 conference championships in 26 years, which is once again good, but not great. He has 5 top 10 finishes which is once again good, but not great. His 9-10 bowl record is actually pretty average. The numbers alone don't take into account the challenges of being a consistent winner at a place like Kansas State and therefore the numbers alone don't do enough to show how great a coach a guy like Bill Snyder is/was.
guffus
Well-Known Member
Average Big Ten coach =
7-5 average record per season
5-4 average record in Big Ten games
1 division title every 7 years
1 BCS/CFP committee bowl every 7 years
1 conference championship every 14 years
Example: Kirk Ferentz
Good Big Ten coach =
8-4 average record per season
6-3 average record in Big Ten games
2 division titles every 7 years
2 BCS/CFP committee bowl every 7 years
1 conference championship every 7 years
At least 1 playoff appearance in 14 years
Example: Mark Dantonio
Great Big Ten football coach =
10-3 average record per season
7-2 average record in Big Ten games
4 division title every 7 years
4 BCS/CFP committee bowl every 7 years
2 conference championship every 7 years
1 playoff appearance every 7 years
At least 1 appearance in NCG
Example: Chip Kelly
Legendary Big Ten football coach =
11-2 average record per season
8-1 average record in Big Ten games
6 division title every 7 years
6 BCS/CFP committee bowl every 7 years
5 conference championship every 7 years
4 playoff appearances every 7 years
2 appearances in NCG every 7 years
At least 1 national championship
Example: Urban Meyer
7-5 average record per season
5-4 average record in Big Ten games
1 division title every 7 years
1 BCS/CFP committee bowl every 7 years
1 conference championship every 14 years
Example: Kirk Ferentz
Good Big Ten coach =
8-4 average record per season
6-3 average record in Big Ten games
2 division titles every 7 years
2 BCS/CFP committee bowl every 7 years
1 conference championship every 7 years
At least 1 playoff appearance in 14 years
Example: Mark Dantonio
Great Big Ten football coach =
10-3 average record per season
7-2 average record in Big Ten games
4 division title every 7 years
4 BCS/CFP committee bowl every 7 years
2 conference championship every 7 years
1 playoff appearance every 7 years
At least 1 appearance in NCG
Example: Chip Kelly
Legendary Big Ten football coach =
11-2 average record per season
8-1 average record in Big Ten games
6 division title every 7 years
6 BCS/CFP committee bowl every 7 years
5 conference championship every 7 years
4 playoff appearances every 7 years
2 appearances in NCG every 7 years
At least 1 national championship
Example: Urban Meyer
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So Guffus, do you know of any coaches that fit in those categories even going back to the 60's and 70's adjusting for the number of games per season? Hayes, Schembechler the only ones, maybe in the legendary column?
Here are 2 great examples.
Correct, they did very very well, even great considering where their programs were when they took over and the results they had. I would say that if Fry could have won 2 of his 3 Rose Bowls and hung on to get into a championship type game in 1985 he might be Great to legendary. Actually, Fry was legendary in his integration at SMU with Levias and his offense and exotics.
Alvarez won the big Rose Bowls.
HawkGold
Well-Known Member
I think some of the measurables oft left out is attitude and making do with what you have or what you can get.
I do think that most KF criticism falls in those two categories.
However, a coach who is great in working with what he has or can realistic get, doesn't mean they will be a great coach at a superior program.
I do think that most KF criticism falls in those two categories.
However, a coach who is great in working with what he has or can realistic get, doesn't mean they will be a great coach at a superior program.
My criticism with these benchmarks is that they don't take into account where you're coaching at. The proven achievable ceilings and the proven floors differ from program to program. For instance, there are only a small handful of programs that can actually reach the standards you have set at "Legendary" and Ohio State is one of those programs. Now a place like Ohio State just doesn't step onto the field and accomplish that standard. A great coach like Urban Meyer can take a place like Ohio State to that level, but would he be able to take a school like Michigan State or Iowa to those levels over an extended period of time of 7-8 years? Probably not or at least it hasn't been proven that those programs can get there as of today. Once again, using Ohio State as an example, if a coach at Ohio State is averaging 8 wins per year, that coach is much closer to being an average coach than a good football coach.
What makes a coach average, good, or great in terms of results are how the coach performs compared to the standards that have been established at that particular program rather than being universal.
For example, Barry Alvarez stepped into a program that was a bottom level program in the Big 10 and won 60% of his games over a period of 16 seasons. His teams won 3 conference championships and finished in the top 10 3 times. This is well above the previous standard for Wisconsin and I'd consider Alvarez a great coach. But those results would not fly at Ohio State. If those are your results at Ohio State, you're an above average coach at best.
guffus
Well-Known Member
I had to admit I had that delimna too. How do you judge somebody like Pat Fitzgerald, who does very well at NW, but has never even won his own division?
In the end I decided a coach needs to move up to an elite school to achieve that legendary status. If he elects to stay at a school like NW or Iowa, he probably will never achieve that legendary status and will just considered good. I am sorry, if a coach wants to be considered great, he needs to prove he can do it at the highest level with the highest expectations like an Ohio St, Alabama, or Oklahoma or a school at that level.
There are exceptions. Frank Beamer, Lavell Edwards, Fry and Alveraez all did great things at not so great schools. But in the end Fry and Alveraz never played for a National championship, which puts them a little lower than the legends.
In the end I decided a coach needs to move up to an elite school to achieve that legendary status. If he elects to stay at a school like NW or Iowa, he probably will never achieve that legendary status and will just considered good. I am sorry, if a coach wants to be considered great, he needs to prove he can do it at the highest level with the highest expectations like an Ohio St, Alabama, or Oklahoma or a school at that level.
There are exceptions. Frank Beamer, Lavell Edwards, Fry and Alveraez all did great things at not so great schools. But in the end Fry and Alveraz never played for a National championship, which puts them a little lower than the legends.
guffus
Well-Known Member
You could make an argument that Lloyd Carr is in the great category. He did win a National championship.
Jim tressel I would put in the great category. He dominated Michigan, won 1 national championship and OSU played in 2 other NCG under Tressel.
Joe Paterno, uhhTom Osborne, Bobby Bowden, Bob Stoops, Nick Saban and Pete Carrol I would consider all legendary
Alerverez and Fry could be considered great but both are missing playing for a National championship from their resume.
Joe Tiller probably deserves honorable mention for what he accomplished at Purdue.
Yep, Tressel really had it going until the inmates started running the asylum.
okeefe4prez
Well-Known Member
Lloyd Carr was awful. It's hard to name a guy who did less with more than him. It really is. After you knock out Paterno's vacated wins, he doesn't look so good. Both Carr and Paterno got passed by Iowa on a routine basis at schools that frankly should never be passed by Iowa.
Carroll was okay, but the guy had every advantage in the world and anyone who gets caught the way he did and has to run off to the NFL isn't a legend, he's a cheater. Big Game Bob choked in virtually every big game Oklahoma had. Had a chance to become legendary, but blew it.
I guess I could be talked into including Osborne on a list of great coaches. It's just really hard for me to do that because he was just such a mediocre coach if you watch those old Nebraska games - it was all about the option and big road grader local boys on the o-line. The Big 8 was sooooo bad and their season typically came down to just the Oklahoma game and then the bowl. Slot them in the B1G starting in 1980 and I just don't see a lot of championships there.
Again, I think Nick and the Bear are the only undisputed truly great coaches ever.
okeefe4prez
Well-Known Member
Yeah, this is a pretty good analysis. Unless you pull a Bowden and elevate your school from a middling or garbage status to truly elite, it's hard to say you deserve to be called "great." For Fitz to be considered great, I think he would have to consistently win 9 games with at least two perfect regular seasons and a playoff berth with a title win and then he has to leave the school with that sort of momentum going the way Coach Bowden did. Too many guys hold on for a few years too long and turn their schools into garbage.
Wins definitely count. How much?? What if you got caught in a cycle and made deep runs, maybe even a conf title in a three year span, had four disaster years and only won a couple conf games, then came back with another deep three year run?
10 years, two conf titles, six very successful seasons, but four horrible ones.
What would that be?
Hard to say it bad. Hard to say it's good.
Throw in things like are your kids being accused of rape or other nasty things? I'm not talking about whoops had a few to many drinks or a whack of tabacky. That would be highly hypocritical of 99% of the population to condemn a college student for that.
So what makes a great coach? Not an easy question to answer. Probably about as many, if not more things than goes into what makes a good/great human being.
10 years, two conf titles, six very successful seasons, but four horrible ones.
What would that be?
Hard to say it bad. Hard to say it's good.
Throw in things like are your kids being accused of rape or other nasty things? I'm not talking about whoops had a few to many drinks or a whack of tabacky. That would be highly hypocritical of 99% of the population to condemn a college student for that.
So what makes a great coach? Not an easy question to answer. Probably about as many, if not more things than goes into what makes a good/great human being.
