Wagner

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NikeHawk21

Well-Known Member
With all the talk about the newcomers and starters I feel like we haven't talked too much about Ahmad (outside of his FT shooting). As we know, bench play is very important to a teams success, and Ahmad is clearly our top reserve.

Through 4 games (Ik still early) it doesn't appear to me that Ahmad has really found a way to help us scoring wise, which kind of brings him back to the same role as he had last year (rebounding, defense, energy). I had hoped that Ahmad would develop into a post threat and basically be another option to throw it into inside behind Cook. So far when he catches it inside, he appears to go too fast and either travels or charges into the defender. When he does make a move and draw contact he has not been able to finish, which means he heads to the line, where he hasn't shot well.

IIRC, he was working on his outside shot and ball handling in the summer & in PTL. I could be wrong on that, but my concern with that is, he hasn't even shot a jump shot to date that I remember, and he rarely helps with ball handling. I wish he would have focused more on improving his post moves.

Either way he's a valuable asset to this team because of his athleticism, rebounding, and at this point is probably one of maybe only 3/4 that are considered okay defensive players.

Thoughts on Ahmad?
 
Tweener.... Doesn't seem to have the ball skills to play the 3 or 2 and not tall enough to compete underneath at the 4 or 5. Good hustler, boxes out but don't expect him to score a lot. Garbage points, hustle and playing defense are his skills.
 
All those things you mention, we need more of. I think he's improved considerably offensively. He's got a nice first step and a baby hook that he's gone to. I like it. We need physical...he brings that.
 
Let's give him a few more games to see how he looks. The season is still very young and payers can change. I won't lie and say your points are not valid concerns. I was thinking the same thing, but I am hopeful that in the next few games he gives us something that changes our perspective.
 
WinOneThisCentury said:
We need physical...he brings that.
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Agreed. I love that about Ahmad. I still think he's going to make noise on the offensive glass this year, even more than we've seen.

Fran did make a good point after the game yesterday. He said he wished he played Ahmad a little more in the game, and that sometimes we forget he's only a sophomore. With the Jones injury, I think he should play about 25 minutes a game, so I think he will have a chance to get in a rythm out there.
 
I like his game a lot. He'll probably never be a great scorer, but his athleticism and strength are very valuable to a team.
 
DP5555 said:
How bout we move him over to the football team and let him play WR!? Can we do that? I believe he was a pretty good one in high school.
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I actually think he'd have made a much bigger impact doing that than what he seems to be as a basketball player. He's certainly a tweener. His offensive skills haven't really developed much. I have a tough time seeing his role increasing much more than it is now. Watch him end up being one of those guys who plays hoops in college so he can get his education paid for without putting all the wear and tear on his body that playing football does. Then after college he goes on to the NFL... The guy is certainly a freak of an athlete so if he can put on 10-20 more lbs who's to say he couldn't make the NFL as a new age big WR or TE that's becoming so common place now? If that's in his thought process I'd say he's pretty darn smart. It's just too bad for the football program to be missing out on him now..
 
Hawkfnntn said:
I actually think he'd have made a much bigger impact doing that than what he seems to be as a basketball player. He's certainly a tweener. His offensive skills haven't really developed much. I have a tough time seeing his role increasing much more than it is now. Watch him end up being one of those guys who plays hoops in college so he can get his education paid for without putting all the wear and tear on his body that playing football does. Then after college he goes on to the NFL... The guy is certainly a freak of an athlete so if he can put on 10-20 more lbs who's to say he couldn't make the NFL as a new age big WR or TE that's becoming so common place now? If that's in his thought process I'd say he's pretty darn smart. It's just too bad for the football program to be missing out on him now..
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I'm pretty sure one of the other players (Jok or Baer I think) said that Wagner has the quickest first step of anyone on the team. That's pretty impressive for a guy his size and it would translate well as a WR. I agree with you. I think he would have made more of an impact on the football field. Not trying to downplay his role on the basketball squad. You have to appreciate his energy and work ethic, but I do think he would have been a better football player.
 
DP5555 said:
I'm pretty sure one of the other players (Jok or Baer I think) said that Wagner has the quickest first step of anyone on the team. That's pretty impressive for a guy his size and it would translate well as a WR. I agree with you. I think he would have made more of an impact on the football field. Not trying to downplay his role on the basketball squad. You have to appreciate his energy and work ethic, but I do think he would have been a better football player.
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Yeah he's a stud of an athlete that just looks like tarzan coming off the bus. Heck just having him run fade routes in the red zone would have been more impactful for the football team than anything he's been doing in hoops so far. Now we'll see how his career plays out and he may improve a ton at hoops too. We'll just have to see.
I think I remember a kid that was a basketball player last yr that never ever played football that got drafted to play TE. The NFL is just looking for those long athletic guys that can run and have ball skills. He clearly falls into that category
 
I didn't expect much offensively out of Wagner this year. With both Jok and Cook being as offensively capable as they are, touches for everyone else were always going to be somewhat limited anyway. I see him really emerging his last 2 years.
 
He's only about 6'5" in reality but has more of an inside game since his outside shooting touch has not been perfected (see FT woes). The issue is it's difficult to post up guys much bigger or equally as athletic than he is when playing a 3, 4 or 5.

In hindsight he could have really used a red-shirt year to improve his ball-handling & outside shooting skills. This year would have been ideal to do that as we have a log jam of players needing more time like Moss & Dailey anyway. I am not sure we would miss his minutes that much this year.

I like Wagner but the concern is where does he actually fit in a lineup?
 
SpecialKHawk said:
And what does he do well against quality competition?
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Rebound and play defense. Both things very much needed on this team. Many around here actually thought Wagner had a good chance at starting this year.

Unless "tanking" is a thing in college basketball, in no way was the idea of Redshirting one of our top 6 players ever even floated by our staff.
 
NikeHawk21 said:
Rebound and play defense. Both things very much needed on this team. Many around here actually thought Wagner had a good chance at starting this year.

Unless "tanking" is a thing in college basketball, in no way was the idea of Redshirting one of our top 6 players ever even floated by our staff.
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That's great but he's a liability right now on the other end. He's a career .50% FT shooter so when he goes to the line and misses, sometimes both it's like a turnover. He has no game outside of about 5-7 feet from the basket. If you toss the ball to him with the shot clock under about 7 seconds and he's outside of that distance what is he going to do with it?

He's a shorter version of Baer without a reliable jump shot. It would have served him well to red shirt and really work on his ball-handling and shooting ability. He needs to be able to play the 3 to help us. Then come back with better offensive skills to go with his strengths of defense and rebounding.

Against Seton Hall which is the only team with a pulse so far he played 20 minutes, grabbed 2 boards, had no assists, missed a shot and went 1-4 from the line including 2 big misses in the second half on the same trip to the line. Is that the type of production you expect from a 6th man?

He's an undersized 4 man based on his need to be around the basket but with Cook there he's not going to play the 4 much. He's too short for the 5. I would argue that we would get better production from a combination of Moss/Dailey playing the 3 spot off the bench than Wagner. That's is again why a red-shirt would have been smart this year for him. Love his attitude and athleticism but at this level you have to bring something at both ends of the court.
 
SpecialKHawk said:
That's great but he's a liability right now on the other end. He's a career .50% FT shooter so when he goes to the line and misses, sometimes both it's like a turnover. He has no game outside of about 5-7 feet from the basket. If you toss the ball to him with the shot clock under about 7 seconds and he's outside of that distance what is he going to do with it?

He's a shorter version of Baer without a reliable jump shot. It would have served him well to red shirt and really work on his ball-handling and shooting ability. He needs to be able to play the 3 to help us. Then come back with better offensive skills to go with his strengths of defense and rebounding.

Against Seton Hall which is the only team with a pulse so far he played 20 minutes, grabbed 2 boards, had no assists, missed a shot and went 1-4 from the line including 2 big misses in the second half on the same trip to the line. Is that the type of production you expect from a 6th man?

He's an undersized 4 man based on his need to be around the basket but with Cook there he's not going to play the 4 much. He's too short for the 5. I would argue that we would get better production from a combination of Moss/Dailey playing the 3 spot off the bench than Wagner. That's is again why a red-shirt would have been smart this year for him. Love his attitude and athleticism but at this level you have to bring something at both ends of the court.
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First of all, I started this thread by questioning what his role is on offense, so I'm not sure what your point is. This team has plenty of scoring, we need defense. Your calling to redshirt one of our best defenders in order to play better offensive players, seems odd.

Second, I don't think Wagner will ever develop into a 3 from what I've seen thus far. You're right he is a tweener, and that's why many people feel he would have been much wiser to play football.

Look for the most part I think you and I actually agree that Ahmad really doesn't have an offensive skill set, which was the point of my thread. I just don't agree that we should have redshirted him. I just find it interesting that everyone bashes Uhl, but at least he can handle the ball, hit 3s, and has the size to guard bigger players.
 
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