Turns out getting zero points from starting guards...

H

Hawkfnntn

Well-Known Member
And 5 pts combined from 3 starters will make it tough to win games even against not so good teams. We were kinda due to lay an egg but that was disappointing. I've seen where guys are talking about Indiana playing harder and the guys taking responsibility for that and all. But effort wise and defensively we've had worse games then that. To me it was the offense that let us down in the 2nd half. Simple as that. Even JW only scored like 1 or 2 pts in the 2nd half. Garza is amazing he is but he sure as hell can't be expected to do it all.

I was frustrated that we had their big guys in foul trouble and then kinda went away from going inside. We need a slasher that can dribble drive and draw fouls and create for others. By that I mean JT needed more mins. Garza is 100% of our offense inside and that's great when we are shooting well but disastrous when it doesn't.

I'm not gonna say anything to bash JBo (CJ was hurt not gonna bash him for giving it a go at all) much. But man that was rough... But shooters shoot. There's two lines of thinking to that. One is when you're cold as ice you do what they did and keep him in and encourage him to keep shooting to try and get him out of it. Or take him out for awhile. I used to lean more towards keeping him in but now.... Since we have another option with JT and heck Ulis too for that matter I'm not sure I'd do what Fran did again if JBo continues to struggle like that...
 
We have other options that can do a lot of things JBo can't. If his shot isn't falling early, he needs to sit more and allow us to do other things. He doesn't need to sit for the entire game, but less. JT didn't play in the 2nd half until the very end if I'm correct.
 
I'm still in shock over what happened yesterday in the 2nd half. I am a little disappointed that Fran didn't turn to Toussaint earlier to jumpstart the offense as it was obvious JB just didn't have it. But I can't remember the last time a team went that cold and for so long. They went 12+ minutes without scoring a bucket, that's insane!

What really sucks is they don't play another game until a week from now. Hopefully they can flush it and Fredrick can get healed back up.
 
I think CJ should have sat the game out from the start after the rumors that he was hurt. Him sitting the entire second half made it even more of a head shaker. Why not give him another day to heal instead of aggravating his injury and possibly making it worse? Also, he was probably slower on defense if he was in pain.

Also, if JBo wasn't going to be pulled and he wasn't hitting threes, why continue to force them? I kept wanting him to get closer to the rim and possibly "break the ice" by making more of a bunny. Sometimes it does wonders just seeing the ball go in the hole.

In the end, this loss will probably do the team some good. I got the feeling that (outside of Garza and Weisy) the team thought Indiana would just roll over and give them the win. Complacency has no place in the B1G.

Edit: Why the hell is my font in italics all of the sudden? I didn't change it that I am aware of.
 
RyDogg said:
We have other options that can do a lot of things JBo can't. If his shot isn't falling early, he needs to sit more and allow us to do other things. He doesn't need to sit for the entire game, but less. JT didn't play in the 2nd half until the very end if I'm correct.
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Yeah it was as if Fran was stubbornly trying to snap JBo out of it too. I mean it's one way to do it. It just didn't work. I feel bad for JT and the team because what if with 10 mins to go he played him way more and turned him loose? Not saying the result woulda been totally different but who knows.
 
I'm never one to bad mouth players, but the problem is outside of Garza our identity is live by the 3 die by the 3. I think the thing that has always bothered me most is even when a player is cold or simply can't find his rhythm, rather than looking for an easy basket or even an easy look we just continue to throw up 3s.

As I said in this thread, or another thread I only say the last 7 minutes, so all I saw was the worst of the worst but the stat line that I remember seeing, shortly after turning on the game, was that we were 9-11 (82%) from the stripe and 4-20 (20%) from 3 pt. range. Based on those numbers and the fact that they were in the midst of a 12 minute field goal drought, I think most would flip the script and attack the rim.
 
HawkeyeFever said:
In the end, this loss will probably do the team some good.
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The only way a loss will do a team any good is if the coach is able to understand why we lost. The second part is, if the coach can correctly make those adjustments for the team. Many coaches are stubborn and are unable to make significant changes to win a game because it is outside their comfort zone or ability to quickly analyze the issue and then correctly adjust whether it is after a game or during.
 
Bohannon is a one trick pony who’s great to have when he’s on but a huge liability when he’s not. If he’s not making his three you don’t have defense or interior play to make up for it.

I’ve heard some posters say he should have been benched for Toussaint, but to me there’s no reason Murray couldn’t have been in his place. He moves like a guard and plays D, I’m not convinced that we always need a 6’ small guy at that spot. Connor’s more than capable of taking the ball up and down the court and his passing is better.

Unless you have a ridiculous talent at PG like Izzo did with Winston or Maryland with Trimble, in today’s game the lines are blurred between positions more than they ever have been. 25 years ago you wouldn’t see three bigs on the floor and you definitely weren’t seeing guys like Garza ball screening at the top of the key and shooting threes. People need to get away from the notion that there has to be a small guard up top every rotation, especially when said guard is ice cold.
 
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Fryowa said:
Bohannon is a one trick pony who’s great to have when he’s on but a huge liability when he’s not. If he’s not making his three you don’t have defense or interior play to make up for it.

I’ve heard some posters say he should have been benched for Toussaint, but to me there’s no reason Murray couldn’t have been in his place. He moves like a guard and plays D, I’m not convinced that we always need a 6’ guard at that spot. Connor’s more than capable of taking the ball up and down the court and his passing is better.

Unless you have a ridiculous talent at PG like Izzo did with Winston or Maryland with Trimble, in today’s game the lines are blurred between positions more than they ever have been. 25 years ago you wouldn’t see three bigs on the floor and you definitely weren’t seeing guys like Garza ball screening at the top of the key and shooting threes. People need to get away from the notion that there has to be a small guard up top every rotation, especially when said guard is ice cold.
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Great points all around.

I definitely would like to see K. Murray play a lot more then he currently does. It would be interesting to see that lineup. Conner and Murray sounds like a great combination for the team. Murray plays great defense, can drive to the hoop, plays explosively, and can shoot the three. What is not to like?

Unfortunately I don't see Fran being open to this.
 
Jordan's offensive power is so valuable that you just can't afford to sit him. He's been pretty much the KEY cog in everyone of our big victories... so to insinuate that he needs to sit is absolutely ridiculous. He had a bad game, they all do, but Iowa desperately needs Jordan to bring it every night, when he's not able to, Iowa struggles. That absolutely does NOT mean sit him more....sheeesh.
 
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Fryowa said:
Bohannon is a one trick pony who’s great to have when he’s on but a huge liability when he’s not. If he’s not making his three you don’t have defense or interior play to make up for it.

I’ve heard some posters say he should have been benched for Toussaint, but to me there’s no reason Murray couldn’t have been in his place. He moves like a guard and plays D, I’m not convinced that we always need a 6’ small guy at that spot. Connor’s more than capable of taking the ball up and down the court and his passing is better.

Unless you have a ridiculous talent at PG like Izzo did with Winston or Maryland with Trimble, in today’s game the lines are blurred between positions more than they ever have been. 25 years ago you wouldn’t see three bigs on the floor and you definitely weren’t seeing guys like Garza ball screening at the top of the key and shooting threes. People need to get away from the notion that there has to be a small guard up top every rotation, especially when said guard is ice cold.
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Murray was in fact the first guy off the bench. And, I think he looked lost at times, like all of our team did. He also, not surprisingly, made some great plays. I don’t think alternative lineups would have changed the course of this game, nor would better coaching. Indiana played great D and Iowa had one of the coldest nights on record. We lost. Move on.
 
I would hardly label JBO a “one trick pony.” Record breaking 3 point assassin, record breaking free throw shooter, great job of playing lots of minutes while he accumulates assists and rarely turns the ball over. He is a good rebounding guard and can play the one and the two. He has survived two surgeries and is still playing well. He has his faults, of course, mostly related to his very average quickness. Please send me a list of names of players in the BT who have no weaknesses. Thanks!
 
What games have Iowa won that were impressive? How did Jordan play? What games have Iowa lost that sucked? How did Jordan play.

and there ya go. Iowa needs Jordan's offense, pretty badly it appears and when they don't have it, bad things happen.
 
I don't disagree that when he's hitting shots it wins games. But you have to adapt when it's not happening. Murray offers different (and more) things, and even if he's scoring 8 points, it's more than the alternative. JB had a cold first half and that happens to everyone. But when he comes out after half and keeps bouncing it off the rim it's not a great idea to just ride a sinking ship instead of trying to dig your way out of it.

If a wide receiver drops 4 or 5 balls in a row you don't keep throwing it to him even though he's your best guy. And it doesn't mean he sucks or that you drop him off the depth chart. People have off games and you need to adapt when it happens.
 
InGoodCo said:
What games have Iowa won that were impressive? How did Jordan play? What games have Iowa lost that sucked? How did Jordan play.

and there ya go. Iowa needs Jordan's offense, pretty badly it appears and when they don't have it, bad things happen.
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If Jordan is going to play most of the game no matter how well he plays, then I agree. We will live or die based on how he is shooting.

All I and others are suggesting is that in the nights he is off and the shots aren't falling, he needs to play less minutes than he usually does. It's that simple. He doesn't do nearly enough other than shoot the 3 to be valuable enough to stay out there 30 minutes.

CJ and JoeW have been benched for stretches when they weren't effective and it worked out well. Why can't that also be the case with Jordan. I'd say he brings less to the team if his 3 ball isn't working than what CJ and JoeW do.
 
InGoodCo said:
What games have Iowa won that were impressive? How did Jordan play? What games have Iowa lost that sucked? How did Jordan play.

and there ya go. Iowa needs Jordan's offense, pretty badly it appears and when they don't have it, bad things happen.
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This is all true but the problem is he won’t have the good games against teams with good guards. He will be the least athletic guard on the floor against any even average team that we will play. Yes, he will have games where he makes a bunch of threes but he will never have a game where he shuts down anyone and in the tournament he will get locked down. He’s a great shooter with a JUCO body and skill level.
 
I didn’t think we would lose this game...or any home game. But we couldn’t make shots...not just JBo. It was physical...takes young guys some experience to adjust to Big 10 play. And Indiana plays everybody tough...biggest conference loss is 12.

Indiana doesn’t close out games. But they didn’t have to the way we shot.

All IMO...
 
I’d agree with this take if Iowa hadn’t already beaten some great teams with great guards over the last 5 seasons. Iowa has won way more games than they’ve lost against teams with “good guards”. You are right in that he’s never going to lockdown another teams standout guard, but who on Iowa can?Don’t say Joe T because he has never proven once that he can.
 
RyDogg said:
If Jordan is going to play most of the game no matter how well he plays, then I agree. We will live or die based on how he is shooting.

All I and others are suggesting is that in the nights he is off and the shots aren't falling, he needs to play less minutes than he usually does. It's that simple. He doesn't do nearly enough other than shoot the 3 to be valuable enough to stay out there 30 minutes.

CJ and JoeW have been benched for stretches when they weren't effective and it worked out well. Why can't that also be the case with Jordan. I'd say he brings less to the team if his 3 ball isn't working than what CJ and JoeW do.
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Exactly.. Pretty much what I'm getting at. I'm not suggesting benching him all together or anything crazy but we have options. We have JT, We can play big with CM as the pg for a stretch. I'm just saying to put a lot of eggs in JBos basket when we have other options to try something different is strategy that could be debated.

An 11 plus min stretch with no FGs can't happen for this group. They are way way way too good for that and that's not all on JBo. Not even close. That goes on everyone and Fran. That's almost unbelievable.
 
Fryowa said:
Bohannon is a one trick pony who’s great to have when he’s on but a huge liability when he’s not. If he’s not making his three you don’t have defense or interior play to make up for it.
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A one-trick pony who didn't shoot well last night. Oh well, he did turn the ball over a lot (oh, wait - 1 turnover in 33 minutes). And he didn't rebound well for a point guard (oh, wait - 5 rebounds). What he didn't do well last night is shoot. He also didn't have much in the way of assists, but the entire team had only 14; heck we only made 24 field goals. How many times did we get a good pass to an open shooter who would clang the shot?
 
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