Trump supporters, how do you square this?

[Hay Man]

That article was dated four years before Trump was elected the first time, by the way

 

[Fryowa]

So if we tarriff China, they say F you we aren't losing money so pass it on to consumers, and we say ok. If we tariff other countries, we can say you eat the cost or lose our business, and they say ok? I'm not arguing here. Just making sure we are on the same page on what you're saying.

I would also add that this 10% will be worse than the previous 2 tariffs. In the previous 2, agriculture-related products were exempted. This one is completely across the board on everything that comes from China. Nuts to soup.

 

[Fryowa]

I personally do think that. But I'm nowhere near arrogant enough to act like I know for sure. If he's really out to get us, then he set up the last four years perfectly. And I might add, unnecessarily.

Remember he was a Democrat until a few years ago. He could have easily bought Twitter, left all the free speech talk out, and went about controlling everyone. Why the team switch? He had democrats in the palm of his hand and Republicans were indifferent to him. If he wanted to sneak into government, it would have been was easier to latch onto Biden and do it that way. 100% of democrats would love what he's doing now and Republicans would probably be split down the middle. The only answer that makes sense is democrats weren't corrupt enough to let him in to "clean up over spending" so he did a four year plan to switch teams. I'm not saying that's not possible. But in my opinion it's unlikely. I don't buy into the thought that one party is good and the other is evil.

Trump is flashy and lets him do things directly. Biden's administration would not have given him the publicly visible free reign he has now.

To think he's doing this for the good of Americans and not personal gain and power would be misguided. He's already the richest man the world has ever seen and once you hit that milestone there's not much else in life you can do to top that other than be the most powerful man in the world.

 

[PCHawk]

Trump has always been about what's best for him and I guarantee you that most Democrats wouldn't have voted for him or allowed him to do the exact same things he's saying and doing right now. I would have voted for anyone else over him. He found the group he could win over and be that gullible. He wants money and power.

It's a CULT!!!

Read this article about what makes a cult leader and he hits nearly all 50 points:

Dangerous Cult Leaders

What makes a pathological cult leader?

www.psychologytoday.com

My post was about Musk.

 

[Fryowa]

So if we tarriff China, they say F you we aren't losing money so pass it on to consumers, and we say ok. If we tariff other countries, we can say you eat the cost or lose our business, and they say ok? I'm not arguing here. Just making sure we are on the same page on what you're saying.

Lastly, if Trump truly believed he had the power to put the screws to China without tanking our economy, why wouldn't he just get it over with and slap an 800% tariff on China and brute force them do do things his way? That would stop any and all commerce between our countries until China reacted the way he wants.

Trump knows they have the upper hand and this is nothing more than him trying to be the big dog in the room. I would say it's all for show (because for him it is), but it's not because all it's doing is hurting us and not China. Trump is rich and doesn't have to worry about his new blender costing 40% more now than it did 8 years ago. And so are the people in the government supporting it.

 

[PCHawk]

Correct. I just this morning updated our pricing on thousands of items, at exactly the additional 10% tariff adder that we received from our importers. That's how this thing works with China, Trump (or whoever) says we (the US) are raising our tariff 10% on the declared cost, China in turn raises our prices from them the exact same amount. I'm not being sarcastic here because I think a lot of folks don't understand how it works because they don't make a boring living out of it like I do.

Most of the people in this country think that the US adding 10% tariffs on China decreases their profits because they have to eat it. Thus putting pressure on them to do what Trump wants. Not how it works at all.

The Chinese companies take any and all tariffs from the US and add them to their price. That's how we have to eat it. Trump's intent behind this is that China theoretically has to keep increasing its prices to us until those prices become too high and people stop buying products (hurting their economy), or US companies turn production back to the US. That sounds like a great idea on the surface and it's why uneducated people and union members lean into it so hard as being a good thing.

The reality is that it does neither of those things. People in the US aren't going to stop buying Chinese goods because they can't, for reasons I've mentioned before. And for many of the same reasons production is not going to be moved back to the US. The infrastructure and the wages/costs associated are too great for that to happen. For instance where I work we buy a component related to trailer equipment from China and have for over 20 years (we have thousands of these sorts of things). Once the tariffs started into effect years ago we did our due diligence and looked for alternate sources in Vietnam and India. The problem is it takes years sometimes to get the process done. First you have to find sources, then give them blueprints, then you have to pay for all these people to tool up for samples. Then it can be 6 months to get a sample for review. Then there's months of expensive back and forth between them and our quality dept making sure everything's hunky dory, and then there's pricing to work out. Most of the time that price is even higher than the Chinese tariffed cost because China has their economies of scale dialed in perfectly. Even if the price is good, you still have to work out logistics...sea freight is way cheaper coming out of China because of volume. So you can see how it's not a matter of, "Welp, I guess we'll just pull everything out of China and go somewhere else." It can and does take years to setup and change suppliers and it's cost prohibitive, because for safety/reliability reasons you can't sell product that someone's pulling down the interstate at 80 mph and have it fall apart. It doesn't compute cost-wise.

So the path of least resistance is to keep buying from China, and when they up your price because Trump upped their price, you just keep passing that increase all the way down to guys like you and me in our living rooms. Now multiply that by everything in your daily life that comes from China. Which is just about everything you use and consume.

I pretty much agree with all of that. I'm not sure what your issue with O'Reilly's video then. He didn't say anything that refutes what you're saying.

The one thing I think you're leaving out here is you are acting like buying and not buying from China has to be black or white. If prices go up some, less will be sold. If prices go up more, even less will be sold. The goal should be to slowly make it less and less profitable for a US company to stay in China. You say it's impossible for them to just magically all come back, and I agree. But it can happen over the course of decades. If we want to remain a super power (that might be a pipe dream at this point) we have to start making moves now. If Trump is the bad guy, or stupid, for thinking that, I'm sure he can live with that.

 

[PCHawk]

Lastly, if Trump truly believed he had the power to put the screws to China without tanking our economy, why wouldn't he just get it over with and slap an 800% tariff on China and brute force them do do things his way? That would stop any and all commerce between our countries until China reacted the way he wants.

Trump knows they have the upper hand and this is nothing more than him trying to be the big dog in the room. I would say it's all for show (because for him it is), but it's not because all it's doing is hurting us and not China. Trump is rich and doesn't have to worry about his new blender costing 40% more now than it did 8 years ago. And so are the people in the government supporting it.

My previous post touches on this. If he wants to be the big dog, that's what he would do. If he wants to find the only path possible for not being so dependent on China, he needs to do it slowly.

 

[Hay Man]

My post was about Musk.

My bad. They both changed sides to help with their cause. Making more money and grabbing more power

 

[PCHawk]

Trump has always been about what's best for him and I guarantee you that most Democrats wouldn't have voted for him or allowed him to do the exact same things he's saying and doing right now. I would have voted for anyone else over him. He found the group he could win over and be that gullible. He wants money and power.

It's a CULT!!!

Read this article about what makes a cult leader and he hits nearly all 50 points:

Dangerous Cult Leaders

What makes a pathological cult leader?

www.psychologytoday.com

If Trump would have ran as a Democrat, the media would have had you loving him.

 

[Hay Man]

If Trump would have ran as a Democrat, the media would have had you loving him.

Do you honestly think everyone is dumb enough to buy the shit Trump is spewing?

He's a terrible person with a terrible track record with business, women, construction companies, you name it.

 

[PCHawk]

Rather Basic Math

Excellent Posts, Fry

I would argue it's too basic. How bad does someone have to hate Trump to believe he's too stupid to understand something so basic? Trump has been talking about tarrifs for 30+ years and if I'm not mistaken, has probably dealt with them as a businessman. I find it really hard to believe he doesn't know the basics Fry talked about.

 

[PCHawk]

Do you honestly think everyone is dumb enough to buy the shit Trump is spewing?

He's a terrible person with a terrible track record with business, women, construction companies, you name it.

I think if the media ignored the shit he spewed and raved about all the good things he does (there are some) then everyone would have a completely different opinion of him. Think about someone you don't know personally but you know people who know them. Your opinion is based solely on what they say about them. Think obout people you know. Imagine talking about them to someone who doesn't know them. If you're annoyed at that person at the time, you probably make your friend out to be an ass, and that's this person's opinion now. If your friend just bailed you out of a jam and you're talking about them to someone, that person probably thinks very highly of your friend. Point is, it's easy to manipulate someone's opinion of someone else if they don't know them personally. I think Trump brings a decent percentage of the heat on himself. But I think a majority of it is how the media portrays him.

 

[PCHawk]

Trump is flashy and lets him do things directly. Biden's administration would not have given him the publicly visible free reign he has now.

To think he's doing this for the good of Americans and not personal gain and power would be misguided. He's already the richest man the world has ever seen and once you hit that milestone there's not much else in life you can do to top that other than be the most powerful man in the world.

Is your opinion that it's impossible for someone who became a billionaire to care about humanity? Elon has done more for humanity than possibly anyone in history. With electric cars, wifi in war zones, and trying to make humans multi planetary, who has done more? Everything about his life up until he got political pointed to him loving humanity. If your argument is that there's no way he can have good intentions because he's rich now, it's pretty weak.

 

[Fryowa]

The goal should be to slowly make it less and less profitable for a US company to stay in China. You say it's impossible for them to just magically all come back, and I agree. But it can happen over the course of decades.

I wholeheartedly disagree with that. We are past that point whether we want to be or not...there aren't enough people or resources in this country to match China's output.

Long ago this country's scale between producer and consumer completely tipped the wrong direction and there's no going back from that. Again, even if we had the people and resources, the cost would be too great. China has over 4 times our population, and with their government they are forced to work long hours with no safety precautions, no benefits, and for essentially no pay. That will not ever fly here.

Think about the example of making shoes. 330,000,000 people in this country need shoes. You can't just say in a few decades that the US can do that. Where are you going to get the factories and the materials and the workers for something like that? There are literally millions of people in China who work in that industry.

Last year alone China's vehicle tire export to the United States was 386 million units. The US when running at full capacity 365 days a year is 11 million tires per year. Those figures do not include tires for heavy equipment.

That's only shoes and tires. There are tens of thousands of different product categories just like that.

If we want to maintain the standard of living we have now, there is no choice but to do almost all of our business with China. I know you don't like that and don't want to believe it, but we in the US are the most ravage consumers of material goods there have ever been, by a long ways. It's in our best interest to make that relationship better not worse. The "independent America is a long-gone pipe dream. It's fantasy and people need to accept it.

 

[Hay Man]

I think if the media ignored the shit he spewed and raved about all the good things he does (there are some) then everyone would have a completely different opinion of him. Think about someone you don't know personally but you know people who know them. Your opinion is based solely on what they say about them. Think obout people you know. Imagine talking about them to someone who doesn't know them. If you're annoyed at that person at the time, you probably make your friend out to be an ass, and that's this person's opinion now. If your friend just bailed you out of a jam and you're talking about them to someone, that person probably thinks very highly of your friend. Point is, it's easy to manipulate someone's opinion of someone else if they don't know them personally. I think Trump brings a decent percentage of the heat on himself. But I think a majority of it is how the media portrays him.

There is no amount of good coverage the media could spin about Trump for me to not realize he's a terrible person. His actions and words over the past 40-50 years is all I need. His whole aura is based on trying to make you believe he's the greatest at everything. It shocks me that more people don't see through his crap. He's trying to be like all of the dictators from North Korea. How many golf tournaments has he won at his club? Everyone apparently. This is why I say it's a cult, you guys believe in everything he says and does is right. I don't let anyone tell me who I like or not, just ask my family.

 

[Fryowa]

Is your opinion that it's impossible for someone who became a billionaire to care about humanity? Elon has done more for humanity than possibly anyone in history. With electric cars, wifi in war zones, and trying to make humans multi planetary, who has done more? Everything about his life up until he got political pointed to him loving humanity. If your argument is that there's no way he can have good intentions because he's rich now, it's pretty weak.

You keep asking these questions in absolutes. I never said it was impossible for Musk to care about humanity. I said I believe it's highly improbable that he's doing any of this for the good of humanity. How you try to spin it is your business.

Also remember, the things you said he did for humanity weren't just for humanity, pal. That's how he got to be the world's richest person, lol. If there wasn't a whole lot of money in it for him there's no way he does any of it. You can believe what you want.

 

[Hay Man]

Is your opinion that it's impossible for someone who became a billionaire to care about humanity? Elon has done more for humanity than possibly anyone in history. With electric cars, wifi in war zones, and trying to make humans multi planetary, who has done more? Everything about his life up until he got political pointed to him loving humanity. If your argument is that there's no way he can have good intentions because he's rich now, it's pretty weak.

I don't think the homeless and hungry give a damn about electric cars and going to Mars.

 

[PCHawk]

I wholeheartedly disagree with that. We are past that point whether we want to be or not...there aren't enough people or resources in this country to match China's output.

Long ago this country's scale between producer and consumer completely tipped the wrong direction and there's no going back from that. Again, even if we had the people and resources, the cost would be too great. China has over 4 times our population, and with their government they are forced to work long hours with no safety precautions, no benefits, and for essentially no pay. That will not ever fly here.

Think about the example of making shoes. 330,000,000 people in this country need shoes. You can't just say in a few decades that the US can do that. Where are you going to get the factories and the materials and the workers for something like that? There are literally millions of people in China who work in that industry.

Last year alone China's vehicle tire export to the United States was 386 million units. The US when running at full capacity 365 days a year is 11 million tires per year. Those figures do not include tires for heavy equipment.

That's only shoes and tires. There are tens of thousands of different product categories just like that.

If we want to maintain the standard of living we have now, there is no choice but to do almost all of our business with China. I know you don't like that and don't want to believe it, but we in the US are the most ravage consumers of material goods there have ever been, by a long ways. It's in our best interest to make that relationship better not worse. The "independent America is a long-gone pipe dream. It's fantasy and people need to accept it.

In 10 years we can probably 3d print a pair of shoes in 5 seconds for 5 cents. I think your "never" comment is pretty short sighted.

 

[Fryowa]

I pretty much agree with all of that. I'm not sure what your issue with O'Reilly's video then. He didn't say anything that refutes what you're saying.

The issue with O'Reilly's video for me was that he's completely wrong on the intent of the tariffs. Again, I'm not going to go back and dissect the video. If you think it was a good point, you do you. Honestly.

 

[PCHawk]

There is no amount of good coverage the media could spin about Trump for me to not realize he's a terrible person. His actions and words over the past 40-50 years is all I need. His whole aura is based on trying to make you believe he's the greatest at everything. It shocks me that more people don't see through his crap. He's trying to be like all of the dictators from North Korea. How many golf tournaments has he won at his club? Everyone apparently. This is why I say it's a cult, you guys believe in everything he says and does is right. I don't let anyone tell me who I like or not, just ask my family.

But if 99.9% of your access to him was media heresy and video clips, your opinion of him would already be set enough to not really care about the .1% of hearing full conversations from him.