Trump supporters, how do you square this?

[thedukeofearl]

A lot of children growing up are not disciplined and throw temper tantrums at the drop of a hat

Growing up in Philadelphia my aunt. who was a secular nun, watched the four of us to give my mother
a break, and she had a Credo

I will say Yes every time, but I say No only once

It worked and I used that doctrine with all my children, and it went quite well

Rather simplistic but the proof is in the pudding

And none of my children had access to guns and didn't shoot their classmates

 

[PCHawk]

A lot of children growing up are not disciplined and throw temper tantrums at the drop of a hat

Growing up in Philadelphia my aunt. who was a secular nun, watched the four of us to give my mother
a break, and she had a Credo

I will say Yes every time, but I say No only once

It worked and I used that doctrine with all my children, and it went quite well

Rather simplistic but the proof is in the pudding

And none of my children had access to guns and didn't shoot their classmates

To be fair, 99.99% of kids don't shoot their classmates.

 

[PCHawk]

One thing that's interesting is a high number of mass shootings is black people in the inner cities, but almost every school shooting is white people. I'm sure there are times where black kids bring guns and shoot specific targets. But I can't think of a single time where a black person went to a school and shot people at random. It's kinda strange when you think of it. Anyone have any theories as to why school shootings always seem to be white people?

 

[Westernhawk]

I am not sure...there might be some truth to this, but I see a lot of anecdotal evidence that runs contrary to this. I teach at a University, and the students I work with are awesome. Thoughtful, altruistic, eager to make the world a better place, and just all-around pleasant to be around and work with.

Maybe it is a selection bias thing...I am working with kids who have separated themselves, who had more intrinsic discipline and desire to be part of something bigger than themselves. Perhaps there are other kids that are having a different experience.

Where do you think kids are hearing the message that they should just do what feels good and not work hard or serve others? I don't see my kids getting that message from their school, and they are not getting it at home...so where?

Thanks for sharing this. I work at a fantastic university, and I see extremely high functioning people who feel a lot of pressure and anxiety.

Anxiety underpins a lot of other negative emotions and behavior (including anger and rage). It seems like, for a variety of reasons, kids and young adults are more anxious than ever, less resilient to manage this pressure, and are showing up to colleges and jobs with poorer mental health overall. It's a pretty big problem.

I'll make a (probably weak) attempt at some of the concepts discussed in literature and my own observations:

1. We are becoming much less connected as a society. Lots of isolation. This is a massive societal problem....and...
2. Social media exacerbates this.
3. People are (correctly) seeing the world around them and struggling. The gap in achievement and success, depending on your socioeconomic status, is widening. People feel (and know) that they will likely struggle more than their parents did. Houses and education cost an astronomical amount now, when compared to when I was a kid. Also, people are losing faith in our institutions, for some valid reasons. Churches, schools, the government, science, etc.... these things used to tie us together, but not now. Life expectancy for white males, for example, is actually decreasing for the first time.

To me, it seems that people are anxious, scared, and lonely (isolated). When one doesn't have a supportive community to rely on, maybe people resort to rather primitive means.

 

[#1DieHardHawk]

View attachment 11218

Hard to say how well gun production correlates with increases in ownership, as many gun owners purchase several guns over time, and we know that number increased significantly during Covid.

If we assume that there is a reasonable correlation, that would indicate that ownership increased approximately 150% over that decade, while the active shooter situations increased by about 2000%.

I completely agree that rigorous research into this issue is of paramount importance. A longitudinal study would be ideal, but the study itself, followed by the peer review process, probably would take several years. Some type of retrospective analysis trying to at least identify some corollaries would be much quicker and at least trigger ideas.

My disclosure is that I worked in the mental health field for about six years prior to medical school, although what I'm doing now is completely different. Nevertheless, it gives me a bit of a different perspective.

In my opinion, the issue has been usurped and twisted by political partisanship, and that's too bad. Scientifically evaluating the problem with the goal of identifying cultural triggers and hopefully saving lives should not be a partisan issue.

 

[Westernhawk]

Hard to say how well gun production correlates with increases in ownership, as many gun owners purchase several guns over time, and we know that number increased significantly during Covid.

If we assume that there is a reasonable correlation, that would indicate that ownership increased approximately 150% over that decade, while the active shooter situations increased by about 2000%.

I completely agree that rigorous research into this issue is of paramount importance. A longitudinal study would be ideal, but the study itself, followed by the peer review process, probably would take several years. Some type of retrospective analysis trying to at least identify some corollaries would be much quicker and at least trigger ideas.

My disclosure is that I worked in the mental health field for about six years prior to medical school, although what I'm doing now is completely different. Nevertheless, it gives me a bit of a different perspective.

In my opinion, the issue has been usurped and twisted by political partisanship, and that's too bad. Scientifically evaluating the problem with the goal of identifying cultural triggers and hopefully saving lives should not be a partisan issue.

I mostly agree with you. My point is that both issues (characteristics of shooters and massive availability of guns) are both really important.

I would love to see some kind of studies, or as you noted, retrospective reviews, that would help us to understand what, if anything, shooters have in common over time. That might give us some insights. The solutions, I'm afraid, will be much more difficult.

With all that being said, this is almost exclusively an American problem. Other countries have mental illness, drug problems, social media, tough economies, childhood trauma, and the like. They don't have 400 Million guns. I really like the back and forth on the message board today, as I really do believe most of us are likely pretty darn reasonable, thoughtful people who want to make the world a better place.

Another take on "partisan bickering" if I may... some things are just so dreadful in our society that they cause moral distress. Some of what we see should cause moral distress. It's hard to have meaningful dialogue on topics like this without being strident, and sometimes that devolves into partisan bickering. On an issue like mass shootings, I'll still take partisan bickering over apathy. Maybe...

 

[#1DieHardHawk]

Thanks for sharing this. I work at a fantastic university, and I see extremely high functioning people who feel a lot of pressure and anxiety.

Anxiety underpins a lot of other negative emotions and behavior (including anger and rage). It seems like, for a variety of reasons, kids and young adults are more anxious than ever, less resilient to manage this pressure, and are showing up to colleges and jobs with poorer mental health overall. It's a pretty big problem.

I'll make a (probably weak) attempt at some of the concepts discussed in literature and my own observations:

1. We are becoming much less connected as a society. Lots of isolation. This is a massive societal problem....and...
2. Social media exacerbates this.
3. People are (correctly) seeing the world around them and struggling. The gap in achievement and success, depending on your socioeconomic status, is widening. People feel (and know) that they will likely struggle more than their parents did. Houses and education cost an astronomical amount now, when compared to when I was a kid. Also, people are losing faith in our institutions, for some valid reasons. Churches, schools, the government, science, etc.... these things used to tie us together, but not now. Life expectancy for white males, for example, is actually decreasing for the first time.

To me, it seems that people are anxious, scared, and lonely (isolated). When one doesn't have a supportive community to rely on, maybe people resort to rather primitive means.

I would add that, in addition to isolation and social media, the emphasis on oppressor/oppressed and victimhood over the past five years or so has significantly exacerbated the issue, along with the increasingly accepted narrative that there's nothing wrong with failing.

Due in part to well-meaning but overly idealistic parents that de-emphasize merit and accomplishments in favor of the prism of inequities and lack of fairness in life (NEWSFLASH - life isn't fair), many in our younger generation are missing the point - it's okay to fail when you make a genuine effort, but there's nothing admirable about failing without effort.

Education is way, way, overpriced, but it's also way, way overvalued. As parents, we need to instill in our kids that going to college is not a prerequisite for success (there are many other paths), and we also need to foster the development of emotional resiliency and the importance of determination in the face of adversity.

 

[thedukeofearl]

31,000 children affected across 21 states: 2024 school shootings in numbers​

The number of K-12 students who experienced a school shooting this year alone​

https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2024/12/17/madison-wisconsin-school-shooting-statistics-2024/

 

[CP87]

Thanks for sharing this. I work at a fantastic university, and I see extremely high functioning people who feel a lot of pressure and anxiety.

Anxiety underpins a lot of other negative emotions and behavior (including anger and rage). It seems like, for a variety of reasons, kids and young adults are more anxious than ever, less resilient to manage this pressure, and are showing up to colleges and jobs with poorer mental health overall. It's a pretty big problem.

I'll make a (probably weak) attempt at some of the concepts discussed in literature and my own observations:

1. We are becoming much less connected as a society. Lots of isolation. This is a massive societal problem....and...
2. Social media exacerbates this.
3. People are (correctly) seeing the world around them and struggling. The gap in achievement and success, depending on your socioeconomic status, is widening. People feel (and know) that they will likely struggle more than their parents did. Houses and education cost an astronomical amount now, when compared to when I was a kid. Also, people are losing faith in our institutions, for some valid reasons. Churches, schools, the government, science, etc.... these things used to tie us together, but not now. Life expectancy for white males, for example, is actually decreasing for the first time.

To me, it seems that people are anxious, scared, and lonely (isolated). When one doesn't have a supportive community to rely on, maybe people resort to rather primitive means.

I think the anxiety thing reaches across generations, as well. I really think poor mental health is a big reason why our society seems so susceptible to conspiracies right now. When everything seems chaotic and out of control, the idea that all of the problems are caused by a few sinister people is seductive (especially compared to the complexities of the true problems).

 

[#1DieHardHawk]

I mostly agree with you. My point is that both issues (characteristics of shooters and massive availability of guns) are both really important.

I would love to see some kind of studies, or as you noted, retrospective reviews, that would help us to understand what, if anything, shooters have in common over time. That might give us some insights. The solutions, I'm afraid, will be much more difficult.

With all that being said, this is almost exclusively an American problem. Other countries have mental illness, drug problems, social media, tough economies, childhood trauma, and the like. They don't have 400 Million guns. I really like the back and forth on the message board today, as I really do believe most of us are likely pretty darn reasonable, thoughtful people who want to make the world a better place.

Another take on "partisan bickering" if I may... some things are just so dreadful in our society that they cause moral distress. Some of what we see should cause moral distress. It's hard to have meaningful dialogue on topics like this without being strident, and sometimes that devolves into partisan bickering. On an issue like mass shootings, I'll still take partisan bickering over apathy. Maybe...

Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to discount the importance of ease of access to guns, I just feel that too many are so focused on guns that they blind themselves to the broader picture.

We need a system that keeps the 2nd amendment intact but greatly improves the vetting process and ups the requirement bar for both the purchaser and seller.

IMO, that should include certification of successful completion of at least a basic gun safety course, proof of implementation of a secure storage system, character references from adult non-family members and a waiting period while experts review social media posts (by IP address, not name). Those services are popping up everywhere and are being increasingly retained by employers. I'd also advocate for increasing the legal age to 21.

I'm not convinced that "banning" certain weapons, such as AR-15 style rifles and handguns would have nearly as much impact as people think. If someone is determined, a lot of people could be killed in a very short amount of time with a 12-gauge pump shotgun and pockets loaded with shells. Would those then be banned? It's a slippery slope.

In regards to other countries, the data is eye-opening, but I would question if there is an element of false equivalency to a degree. There's a lot about American history and culture that makes us a different animal, and not necessarily in a positive way.

 

[thedukeofearl]

Since donny's first term

America has become treacherously divided

I see it driving to Hy-Vee

Seem to be lots of folk with enemies for neighbors now

 

[HuckFinn]

I believe that the societal division, with the resulting violence, racism, sexist attitudes, dangerous conspiracy theories, blatant lies that gain acceptance through Repitition, coupled with growing stupidity, are directly created by Donald Trump, the MAGA, and now by the majority of Republicans. Just take a hard look at the pre and post Trump America.

 

[Hawkboys]

Since donny's first term

America has become treacherously divided

I see it driving to Hy-Vee

Seem to be lots of folk with enemies for neighbors now

It began much earlier than him, he just thrives on it personally and poitically. And truly, anyone who thinks the other party is largely to blame is the biggest culprit in all of this!

We own the animosity and we own seeing enemies around the corner. We as individuals and we as whatever tribe (party, ethnic group, team, etc). We can choose to try to understand and find common ground or we can choose to rant on thoughts that promote divisity!

Politics, social media,and news talk are only going to feed the hate. We just need to focus on compassion and understanding and diversity of thought.

 

[SCHawkeye2]

The problem with that logic is the USA has had guns forever. School shootings is a recent issue.

We have had schools forever as well.

 

[CP87]

It began much earlier than him, he just thrives on it personally and poitically. And truly, anyone who thinks the other party is largely to blame is the biggest culprit in all of this!

We own the animosity and we own seeing enemies around the corner. We as individuals and we as whatever tribe (party, ethnic group, team, etc). We can choose to try to understand and find common ground or we can choose to rant on thoughts that promote divisity!

Politics, social media,and news talk are only going to feed the hate. We just need to focus on compassion and understanding and diversity of thought.

In addition, the Trump brand of far-right populism has been gaining steam around the globe, it is not just a US-phenomenon. I think it is a combination of failure of institutions to fully provide what is needed by the citizenry, growing wealth inequality (tied back to that institutions thing), and a change in communication channels (internet + social media). I also think the pandemic threw a match into what was already a tinderbox of issues. Trump has capitalized off the situation, and he certainly has exacerbated it, but he did not create it.

 

[PCHawk]

We have had schools forever as well.

Very good point. Clearly too many schools is not the problem either.

 

[PCHawk]

It began much earlier than him, he just thrives on it personally and poitically. And truly, anyone who thinks the other party is largely to blame is the biggest culprit in all of this!

We own the animosity and we own seeing enemies around the corner. We as individuals and we as whatever tribe (party, ethnic group, team, etc). We can choose to try to understand and find common ground or we can choose to rant on thoughts that promote divisity!

Politics, social media,and news talk are only going to feed the hate. We just need to focus on compassion and understanding and diversity of thought.

You can make a very good case that Obama started it. But clearly the biggest culprit is social media and the way it promotes click bait from the media.

"Anyone who thinks the other party is to blame is the biggest culprit". Truer words have never been spoken. Anyone who has blanket hatred for the other side has no right to blame division on anyone else because there is nothing more devisive than blanket hatred.

 

[PCHawk]

I think the anxiety thing reaches across generations, as well. I really think poor mental health is a big reason why our society seems so susceptible to conspiracies right now. When everything seems chaotic and out of control, the idea that all of the problems are caused by a few sinister people is seductive (especially compared to the complexities of the true problems).

Also when so many things that are labeled "conspiracy theory" turn out to be true it pushes people further down the path of thinking everything is one.

 

[CP87]

Also when so many things that are labeled "conspiracy theory" turn out to be true it pushes people further down the path of thinking everything is one.

There are threads of truth in every great conspiracy theory, just enough to keep people believing. But conspiracy theories attempt to simplify complicated and nuanced problems, giving believers a scapegoat to blame, so they do not have to grapple with the reality of trying to understand or fix the complex systems. Just because you can find something true within your conspiracy theory, that does not mean that your conspiracy theory's take on what is wrong and who is to blame is accurate.

 

[PCHawk]

There are threads of truth in every great conspiracy theory, just enough to keep people believing. But conspiracy theories attempt to simplify complicated and nuanced problems, giving believers a scapegoat to blame, so they do not have to grapple with the reality of trying to understand or fix the complex systems. Just because you can find something true within your conspiracy theory, that does not mean that your conspiracy theory's take on what is wrong and who is to blame is accurate.

That's true in some instances maybe. Like do masks and the covid vax work. But others like did covid come from a lab are pretty black and white.