The main problem was that she wanted to shoot people and die. A secondary problem was she had access to a loaded gun.
Trump supporters, how do you square this?
- Thread starter CP87
- Start date
Yes again, of course gun deaths happen when there is access to guns. Bill Burr does a great bit where he makes fun of the stat that most shark attacks happen is shallow water. Of course they do. That's where the people are. Showing gun stats of a country who has very little guns and a country that has a lot doesn't do much to prove any point. Also take away black people killing each other (which for some reason no one cares about) and then see what the statistics say. We have gang violence at a rate other countries don't. How many of those gang shootings go away when guns become illegal? I'd say 0%.
Westernhawk
Well-Known Member
Ok, now you are beginning to make some sense. YES!!!
1. We need to understand why shooters want to kill someone. What areas of commonality do they have? This is worth studying.
2. Easy access to guns. Remember when I said root cause? This has to be one of them.
There's no utility in continuing this. I care deeply about this issue.
I've been saying this all along. Most of the time people read what they want to read.
Westernhawk
Well-Known Member
So would you agree that there is likely too much access to guns in this country, and we need to be more strict about this?
If you say yes, how would you go about limiting access? If you say no, then you say it's a problem but don't give a shit.
I'm also a firm believer in consequences for the person/parent that gave them access to the gun. If you're a shitty enough parent to not at least sniff out the possibility that your kid is capable of doing something like that, and then take precautions to make sure he can't get your guns, then you deserve the book thrown at you.
I hear conflicting things on the laws, and frankly don't know enough about them to answer. I'm guessing my opinions on how strict laws should be are somewhere closer to left leaning than right. I also think people tend to call for things to be implemented into law that are already laws. There's probably a lot of ignorance on both sides as far as laws go. And again, I'm pretty ignorant there. I honestly think the only difference we would have on thos topic is I lean too heavily on "bad people do bad things" and you lean too heavily on "if guns were gone our problems would be gone. Both of us are partially right and partially wrong on that and the correct answer is somewhere in the middle.
Glass1/2fullguy
Well-Known Member
100% this. The question is what drove this teenage girl and other school shooters to carry out such a horrific act? I think suicides are on a similar level that need investigated. They’re both extremely selfish acts but what is causing these young people to get to this point. With one daughter graduating from HS next week and the other in 10th grade I find social media and phones to be so toxic on our young generation. We held off on phone til our girls were 13. Wish we could’ve been strong enough to hold out longer. Social media is such a toxic place. I recall middle school being an extremely hard time. I just can’t imagine what it’d be like to go through middle school w/ social media. It takes bullying to an insane levels. Middle school girls are ruthless. And from my experience they’re ruthless from 5th grade to around 10 grade where they start maturing.
thedukeofearl
Well-Known Member
I believe the media is saying that she was bullied at school and on social media
It's such a tough thing as a parent because not having a phone can be another reason to be bullied or left out. We struggle with that decision bad.
I tell my kids to never bully anyone. I say don't be the reason a kid decides to shoot up a school. Be the kid the shooter skips over. It's horrible to say that but my kids are already way too aware of school shootings.
#1DieHardHawk
Well-Known Member
The interesting thing about this graph is that it somewhat supports points on both sides of the debate.
Active shooting incidents have risen approximately 2000% over 21 years. I don't know the exact number, but I highly doubt gun ownership has risen anywhere near that percentage.
Obviously, the issue is much more complex than the simple volume of guns in the U.S., which would statistically correlate with ease of access.
Passions unfortunately run so high on this issue, that too often attempts at intelligent conversation devolve into emotional defensive stubbornness. As with several other issues afflicting our society, political partisanship is a constant barrier to thoughtful investigation, as both sides cherry-pick statistics supporting their agendas, while simultaneously holding their hands against their ears, yelling, "La La La La...!!!"
As others have pointed out, doing a deep dive into the motivations for the actions should be the focus. It's simplistic and easy to point at guns as the problem while raising fists and demanding laws restricting ownership. That doesn't address the core issue, especially when you consider that families that are heavily into ownership and 2nd amendment rights (the majority of which also passionate about gun safety and education) rarely produce the children that commit these atrocities.
Based on the above, I would propose that starting with an investigation into what else is unique about the last two decades would be a good start.
Westernhawk
Well-Known Member
Westernhawk
Well-Known Member
I completely agree with you that we need to understand the motivations of shooters. I would love for a solid, longitudinal study being done that looks at similarities of both shooter characteristics and motives over time, to see what kinds of things might be worth pursuing.
With that, the sheer volume and unfettered access to guns is an obvious issue to many (including most anyone not from the United States... they think we're nuts).
I agree that this is a multifactorial problem, but unless we are willing to honestly look at all of the factors and aggressively pursue solutions (including limiting access to those who shouldn't have guns), we are simply saying "thoughts and prayers" and shrugging our shoulders while children die.
I'd like to think everyone here on this board cares about this issue. I'd ask that folks be open to all of the facets of the problem. To say it's just the guns, and the guns only, is wrong. To say it's only about things like mental health or drugs... also limiting. We need to be open to looking at all of these.
Full disclosure, my area of expertise is in mental health and population health. I deal with the violence and suicidality on the front lines and I'm acutely aware that there are many factors at play. I would love to see much more robust mental health resources for people, but many in our country think people are just weak and should pull themselves up by the bootstraps. We, as a culture, are more anxious, depressed, and hopeless than previous generations. We are arguably a violent society, with unfettered access to lethal means. We also have a lot of substance abuse problems. Lastly, the income disparities between rich and poor are growing very quickly. Not a recipe for calm, IMHO.
I appreciate everyone hanging in there for this conversation.
For what it is worth, there are more regulations on obtaining a gun in Mexico than in the US. For this reason, the net movement of guns across the border is massively in the direction of US to Mexico transfer. Gangs in Mexico set up straw buyers in the US who can buy guns and then deliver them across the border, typically in small quantities per transfer, but repeated many, many times over.
Now that you mention that it doesn't surprise me I guess. So it would be more like bootlegging in the prohibition than drug smuggling from Mexico if they became illegal.
One problem with keeping guns from people that shouldn't have them is that someone who is ok to have them could turn into someone who shouldn't have them very quickly. That's not meant as a counter point to what you said. Just mentioning another issue.
Hawkboys
Well-Known Member
I think it also has to do with the modern sociology of telling kids that they need to do whatever makes them feel good. There is so much less direction nowadays to work hard to get what you want, to server others, and be a part of something bigger than yourself. I may be way too old fashioned in this, but the proof is in the pudding.
So when people, especially younger people who find that nothing in this pursuit of self enjoyment actually leads to happiness, they become very disenfranchised, bitter and start looking for someone to punish. Schools have the innocents, which is why they're likely targeted. The shooter wants others to feel their pain!
Social media compounds this as it makes everyone seem way happier than they really are!
I am not sure...there might be some truth to this, but I see a lot of anecdotal evidence that runs contrary to this. I teach at a University, and the students I work with are awesome. Thoughtful, altruistic, eager to make the world a better place, and just all-around pleasant to be around and work with.
Maybe it is a selection bias thing...I am working with kids who have separated themselves, who had more intrinsic discipline and desire to be part of something bigger than themselves. Perhaps there are other kids that are having a different experience.
Where do you think kids are hearing the message that they should just do what feels good and not work hard or serve others? I don't see my kids getting that message from their school, and they are not getting it at home...so where?
thedukeofearl
Well-Known Member
Could it have to do with family values
The basic values that children are taught by their parents while growing up
Along with unlimited access to social media
Some might see monitoring their teens social media activity as invasive
however,...
By the way, it goes without saying that high school teens should not have unsupervised
access to loaded guns for their own safety and the safety of everyone else
Just random thoughts
The basic values that children are taught by their parents while growing up
Along with unlimited access to social media
Some might see monitoring their teens social media activity as invasive
however,...
By the way, it goes without saying that high school teens should not have unsupervised
access to loaded guns for their own safety and the safety of everyone else
Just random thoughts
