Trump supporters, how do you square this?

[Fryowa]

I agree that if someone ever ran and got in that wanted to make a difference, they would do anything to stop him. I don't understand how you can think that way and not realize that's exactly what happened with Trump. They impeached him for trying to uncover the corruption in Ukraine. They almost certainly rigged the election to get him out of office. Then they tried to bankrupt him, jail him, and kill him to keep him from getting back in. I just don't get how you can be halfway there with your thinking and not put the rest together. What do you think will happen to an outsider who tries to get in office?

Thanks. I think we tend to agree on most of this, but I think comparing Trump to virtually any other president in history is a mistake, and a false equivalency. I agree with most of what you said, however.

I do think Trump is a demonstrably worse human than many (most) elected officials, and his criminal and civil judgments support my stance. In addition, many in his circle have gone to prison for actual, proven crimes. His personal lawyer(s) have been either imprisoned, disbarred, or both. His close advisors have done prison time for fraud and the like.

You are welcome to your opinion that they are all the same. I disagree with only one point. Trump is different, and I'll stand by that forever.

I very much agree with your points about limitations (financially) on terms and income. There is just so much corruption.

I was once part of a state Governor's Fellowship, which encouraged leaders to go into public service. Two of my classmates are now mayors of cities in that state. They are awesome people. There are some folks out there (usually at the local level) who do this for the right reasons. On the national level, not so much! Cheers.

Trump doesn't have to be similar to any president before him to be a terrible person. My main point is all politicians at the level of US congress, senate and above are all terrible people. They all want the power, fame, and money that comes with holding an elected office like that. Harris included. And all the people in the GOP and DP. If they didn't, they'd work together for the good of the country instead of each doing nothing but 1) blaming the other side for everything and 2) never deviating from the party.

If they dared step outside the party line they'd be excommunicated from it. They all know they'd be excommunicated, so they toe the line because the power, fame, and money are more important to them. Otherwise why else would they do it? That makes them terrible people.

The folks on this board supporting one or the other (and the rest of the political partisan citizens in this country) aren't necessarily bad people, they're just sheep who aren't self-aware enough to understand that both sides have the same motivation--power--over serving the country.

 

[Fryowa]

I agree that if someone ever ran and got in that wanted to make a difference, they would do anything to stop him. I don't understand how you can think that way and not realize that's exactly what happened with Trump. They impeached him for trying to uncover the corruption in Ukraine. They almost certainly rigged the election to get him out of office. Then they tried to bankrupt him, jail him, and kill him to keep him from getting back in. I just don't get how you can be halfway there with your thinking and not put the rest together. What do you think will happen to an outsider who tries to get in office?

Sorry, you can't support Trump and not be be a partisan. Trump represents the party. Saying you support Trump but have no party ties is trying to have your cake and eat it too...Trump is the GOP and the GOP is Trump.

Same goes for the left.

 

[SCHawkeye2]

My team > your team

 

[PCHawk]

Sorry, you can't support Trump and not be be a partisan. Trump represents the party. Saying you support Trump but have no party ties is trying to have your cake and eat it too...Trump is the GOP and the GOP is Trump.

Same goes for the left.

I disagree. The left always points out how many Republicans want nothing to do with Trump (like that's a bad thing). Trump is a Republican by name and that's it.

You want bipartisan? Look at Trump's views on abortion. He's willing to alienate a lot of voters to be in the middle on that subject. You want more bipartisan? How about when Trump called Kennedy and said we need to fix America's health and he wants to work together to go after these companies? Kennedy is as blue as they come. You want smaller salaries for politicians? It doesn't get smaller than the zero dollars he accepted for his salary. You want a guy who doesn't want the job but is willing to do it? Google Trump talking to Oprah about running for president 30 years ago.

Trump is far from perfect character wise. But he's exactly what people like you say they want, and what's happening to him is exactly what will happen to anyone who does what he's trying to do.

And I definitely do lean more Republican. But I don't even bother voting (nor did I ever vote) when it's politician vs politician.

 

[Westernhawk]

I disagree. The left always points out how many Republicans want nothing to do with Trump (like that's a bad thing). Trump is a Republican by name and that's it.

You want bipartisan? Look at Trump's views on abortion. He's willing to alienate a lot of voters to be in the middle on that subject. You want more bipartisan? How about when Trump called Kennedy and said we need to fix America's health and he wants to work together to go after these companies? Kennedy is as blue as they come. You want smaller salaries for politicians? It doesn't get smaller than the zero dollars he accepted for his salary. You want a guy who doesn't want the job but is willing to do it? Google Trump talking to Oprah about running for president 30 years ago.

Trump is far from perfect character wise. But he's exactly what people like you say they want, and what's happening to him is exactly what will happen to anyone who does what he's trying to do.

And I definitely do lean more Republican. But I don't even bother voting (nor did I ever vote) when it's politician vs politician.

I wholeheartedly agree that America needs to have a healthier diet in order to improve the massive chronic disease burden. It's much more basic than looking at chemicals in food, however. It's the actual macronutrients we eat. We eat a LOT of meat, eat a lot of refined sugar, and drink a lot of alcohol. The most obvious thing to do is start there.

However, I'm deeply mistrustful of Kennedy, as he's part of the "disinformation dozen" that has spread ridiculous lies and conspiracies on the internet. He persists in his dangerous (and patently false) assertion that vaccines cause autism. He persists that wifi causes "leaky brain." He's also said that HIV may not cause AIDS. The guy's a nut.

I hope he listens to the actual scientific community. I hope.

 

[HuckFinn]

You know what's funny and absurd about this whole thread? You're both wrong and both support "parties" that are terrible for America.

But neither of you can see it and neither can your respective brethren. So here we are.

You are right.
The Democratic Party was not savvy enough to find a candidate to defeat the biggest joke ever elected..twice, for God’s sake. Their leadership is useless.

 

[PCHawk]

I wholeheartedly agree that America needs to have a healthier diet in order to improve the massive chronic disease burden. It's much more basic than looking at chemicals in food, however. It's the actual macronutrients we eat. We eat a LOT of meat, eat a lot of refined sugar, and drink a lot of alcohol. The most obvious thing to do is start there.

However, I'm deeply mistrustful of Kennedy, as he's part of the "disinformation dozen" that has spread ridiculous lies and conspiracies on the internet. He persists in his dangerous (and patently false) assertion that vaccines cause autism. He persists that wifi causes "leaky brain." He's also said that HIV may not cause AIDS. The guy's a nut.

I hope he listens to the actual scientific community. I hope.

Kennedy is an environmental lawyer who specializes in finding corruption and holding them accountable. That doesn't mean he doesn't find corruption that isn't there. It just means he's a good person to find it when it is there. So when he calls out big pharma for corruption and they have a history of being corrupt, I tend to lean towards believing him. If big pharma had a squeaky clean past and then out of nowhere this guy comes along calling them out, I'd tend to not believe him.

I agree that there are things individuals can do to help themselves. But Kennedy's point is our country poisons our foods with things that other countries ban. I think that's a better place to start than trying to convince people to not drink or eat fast food. It would make people less unhealthy without them having to change a thing.

And my thoughts on this is exactly the same as my thoughts on Trump. What would big pharma do to a guy who called them out like this? Smear his name and get people to not trust him. It's the exact same playbook.

 

[Westernhawk]

Kennedy is an environmental lawyer who specializes in finding corruption and holding them accountable. That doesn't mean he doesn't find corruption that isn't there. It just means he's a good person to find it when it is there. So when he calls out big pharma for corruption and they have a history of being corrupt, I tend to lean towards believing him. If big pharma had a squeaky clean past and then out of nowhere this guy comes along calling them out, I'd tend to not believe him.

I agree that there are things individuals can do to help themselves. But Kennedy's point is our country poisons our foods with things that other countries ban. I think that's a better place to start than trying to convince people to not drink or eat fast food. It would make people less unhealthy without them having to change a thing.

And my thoughts on this is exactly the same as my thoughts on Trump. What would big pharma do to a guy who called them out like this? Smear his name and get people to not trust him. It's the exact same playbook.

I agree that food companies should be regulated to ensure that our food is up to the standards of Europe. Interesting that folks who generally hate regulation are actually asking for regulation here.

At any rate, just that effort will not drastically improve the morbidity and mortality stats in America.

His efforts may be important (I'll be really interested to check back in a couple of years and see how big government manages to regulate big ag, though).

Ultimately, it's not the most important thing we can all do to improve health, or health care. But it got him appointed, so that's some smart politikin'.

The guy still thinks vaccines cause Autism, so he's still an conspiracy theorist who apparently is allergic to science. Big pharma didn't make him say those stupid things. He did those all by himself.

 

[Westernhawk]

You are right.
The Democratic Party was not savvy enough to find a candidate to defeat the biggest joke ever elected..twice, for God’s sake. Their leadership is useless.

Amen to that. A good, moderate, rational, younger candidate is exactly what America needs. The dems really screwed up. And now we have Drumpf.

 

[PCHawk]

I agree that food companies should be regulated to ensure that our food is up to the standards of Europe. Interesting that folks who generally hate regulation are actually asking for regulation here.

At any rate, just that effort will not drastically improve the morbidity and mortality stats in America.

His efforts may be important (I'll be really interested to check back in a couple of years and see how big government manages to regulate big ag, though).

Ultimately, it's not the most important thing we can all do to improve health, or health care. But it got him appointed, so that's some smart politikin'.

The guy still thinks vaccines cause Autism, so he's still an conspiracy theorist who apparently is allergic to science. Big pharma didn't make him say those stupid things. He did those all by himself.

There's a difference between regulation and over regulation. I get that that can be a fine line, but I don't think "poisoning our food" is anywhere close to that line.

How do you know that eliminating harmful things from our food won't drastically help?

Other governments don't seem to have a problem banning these foods.

Again, what makes you think it's not the most important thing?

I wonder if people who said smoking caused cancer used to be called conspiracy theorists? Or people who thought opioids were addictive?

 

[PCHawk]

RFK talking about vaccines. He isn't guessing or a conspiracy theorist. He's either telling the truth or he's lying. There's no in between.

x.com

x.com

 

[Westernhawk]

RFK talking about vaccines. He isn't guessing or a conspiracy theorist. He's either telling the truth or he's lying. There's no in between.

x.com

x.com

I do not read anything on X. I look at peer reviewed journals for my scientific info.

Vaccines do not cause Autism. Anyone saying this should not be allowed to do this job. I don't care if you, RFK, the comedian Roe Rogan, or whomever says this type of thing.

Here are some sources that talked about the long-debunked story:

I'm sure you might say that the National Institute of Health, Children's Hospital of Philadelphia (a top 5 children's hospital), and Mayo (a top 5 system) are not nearly as reputable as the guy who said he dumped a dead bear in Central Park, though:

Lancet retracts 12-year-old article linking autism to MMR vaccines - PMC

pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Vaccines and Autism

Two studies have been cited by those claiming that the MMR vaccine causes autism. Both studies are critically flawed.

www.chop.edu

https://www.mayoclinichealthsystem.org/hometown-health/speaking-of-health/autism-vaccine-link-debunked

 

[PCHawk]

I do not read anything on X. I look at peer reviewed journals for my scientific info.

Vaccines do not cause Autism. Anyone saying this should not be allowed to do this job. I don't care if you, RFK, the comedian Roe Rogan, or whomever says this type of thing.

Here are some sources that talked about the long-debunked story:

I'm sure you might say that the National Institute of Health, Children's Hospital of Philadelphia (a top 5 children's hospital), and Mayo (a top 5 system) are not nearly as reputable as the guy who said he dumped a dead bear in Central Park, though:

Lancet retracts 12-year-old article linking autism to MMR vaccines - PMC

pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Vaccines and Autism

Two studies have been cited by those claiming that the MMR vaccine causes autism. Both studies are critically flawed.

www.chop.edu

https://www.mayoclinichealthsystem.org/hometown-health/speaking-of-health/autism-vaccine-link-debunked

What if someone posted a peer reviewed study on X?

 

[Westernhawk]

What if someone posted a peer reviewed study on X?

Send it to me, then I can compare it with other studies. It goes without saying, but one study doesn't mean something is "proven."

A meta analysis is of course the highest form of evidence, and we should all be looking to those.

Have you ever tried to look for actual studies on subjects, and tried to review a lot of them, or do you just believe what you're told?

 

[PCHawk]

Send it to me, then I can compare it with other studies. It goes without saying, but one study doesn't mean something is "proven."

A meta analysis is of course the highest form of evidence, and we should all be looking to those.

Have you ever tried to look for actual studies on subjects, and tried to review a lot of them, or do you just believe what you're told?

I think my biggest issue is not believing what I'm told. You can read all the studies you want, but the issue with that is if what RFK is saying is true, then they don't matter. Kennedy does talk a lot about stats and stuff. But that's not really what interests me. Most or what he talks about has to do with how the corruption works and examples of past corruption that is now known as fact. After hearing all of that info, it's hard to care much about the "studies" they put out.

 

[CP87]

I don't think comparing Trump to prior fascist dictators convinces any trump supporter to move away from him. We are so desensitized by Godwin's Law: for the last 2 decades, we have fairly consistently heard Bush, Obama, and Trump all compared to Hitler. Further, we envision Nazi Germany as this monstrosity that could never happen again, the German citizens as either horrifically racist or inconceivably gullible. We are not like that.

Guess what? Neither were those Germans prior to being led to that state by a charismatic leader who preached nationalism, grievance, and a common enemy they could focus their hatred upon. I really do NOT think we will become Nazi Germany, I think we have enough guard rails in place and a strong enough counter-balance to Trump's fascist tendencies, and overall most people in this country have it pretty good (much of the grievance is contrived).

But it is hard to not think of the Kristallnacht when Trump starts hammering his mass deportation plan. There are already paramilitary organizations (analogs to the SA, or "brown shirts") working throughout our country to locate illegal immigrants. In a recent speech, Trump said something to the effect of...we have people ready to take care of these immigrants, and they will be allowed to do so (paraphrased). It was not clear if he was talking about US Law Enforcement, Military, or something else, but it certainly could have been taken as a call to arms for these militias (much like his "stand back and stand by" was in 2016).

I am sure this seems hyperbolic to anyone who supports Trump, and I hope it is truly hyperbole. But it is hard to not see parallels.

When these paramilitary groups start taking matters into their own hands, don't act like there were no warning signs.

Far-Right Militias Seek Role in Trump Deportation Plan https://www.nytimes.com/2024/12/11/...-border-trump.html?smid=nytcore-android-share

 

[thedukeofearl]

When these paramilitary groups start taking matters into their own hands, don't act like there were no warning signs.

Far-Right Militias Seek Role in Trump Deportation Plan https://www.nytimes.com/2024/12/11/...-border-trump.html?smid=nytcore-android-share

They are a serious threat

And could help with autocracy becoming a reality

 

[thedukeofearl]

39% of Des Moines students are chronically absent​

Headline from the DMR

Serious problem, the uneducated can also vote, obviously

Probably a parent issue, my children were dropped off at school every day they weren't sick

 

[PCHawk]

When these paramilitary groups start taking matters into their own hands, don't act like there were no warning signs.

Far-Right Militias Seek Role in Trump Deportation Plan https://www.nytimes.com/2024/12/11/...-border-trump.html?smid=nytcore-android-share

From the article it sounds like they've already been doing it for a long time.

 

[Westernhawk]

They are a serious threat

And could help with autocracy becoming a reality

Yes, they are a threat. Unfortunately, a subgroup of the American population supports this, and cheers it on. I don't think they understand the risks to our democracy, or maybe understand world history.