Too bad this won't work at college level

And all I'm saying is that there is a difference between being surprised and being deceived. An adult should know the difference and know better, which is why I think the coach is a jerk.

Well I guess if you think that it was uncalled for you could also teach the lesson that lifes not fair. Agree to disagree. If its your kid out there you could teach him many lessons depending on your view. You could teach them a lesson about class, sportsmanship, or that the play worked because all the kids on that team practiced a play they all remembered what to do and then they did it.
 
One other thing as to the questionable legality of this play...

The defense gets 15 yards for simulating a snap count. They can't deceive an offense into thinking the play is starting...how is that any different than this offense deceiving the defense into thinking the play isn't?
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1. This has been shown over and over again on youtube and teams are still doing it (and falling for it).

2. According to an official interviewed on the radio, there's a "blanket" sportsmanship or "deception" rule in high school level football, that allows the refs to negate this type of play (if they have the balls to.)

3. A coach who'd call this play in a pee wee or Jr High level game obviously has some of his own issues. An adult male who's clever enough to trick little boys. Wow, that's impressive. Probably instructs his kid to beat up the other kids early in the year to show em who "the man" is. This isn't what coaching is all about.

Nobody on either side benefits from this.
 
One other thing as to the questionable legality of this play...

The defense gets 15 yards for simulating a snap count. They can't deceive an offense into thinking the play is starting...how is that any different than this offense deceiving the defense into thinking the play isn't?

I think the point is very simple you move when the ball moves. Would you think the coach is a jerk if they had a silent snap and the QB turned and threw it to a wr and he ran with it? You teach kids at a young age to watch the ball and not listen to the QB. These kids did not do that they got distracted and gave up a TD because of it.
 
Well I guess if you think that it was uncalled for you could also teach the lesson that lifes not fair. Agree to disagree. If its your kid out there you could teach him many lessons depending on your view. You could teach them a lesson about class, sportsmanship, or that the play worked because all the kids on that team practiced a play they all remembered what to do and then they did it.

Agreed (to disagree, that is)! :)

I think hawkdrummer said it best in the post a couple before mine...that's not what football is about.
 
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1. This has been shown over and over again on youtube and teams are still doing it (and falling for it).

2. According to an official interviewed on the radio, there's a "blanket" sportsmanship or "deception" rule in high school level football, that allows the refs to negate this type of play (if they have the balls to.)

3. A coach who'd call this play in a pee wee or Jr High level game obviously has some of his own issues. An adult male who's clever enough to trick little boys. Wow, that's impressive. Probably instructs his kid to beat up the other kids early in the year to show em who "the man" is. This isn't what coaching is all about.


Nobody on either side benefits from this.

I dont think thats fair. The kids on that offense sold it. It worked because the kids did their part. The coach is not teaching them to do cheap shots or cheat. I sure wouldnt want my kid coming home complaining because it wasnt fair. It would be unfair if there was no possible way for the defense to stop it.
 
I think the point is very simple you move when the ball moves. Would you think the coach is a jerk if they had a silent snap and the QB turned and threw it to a wr and he ran with it? You teach kids at a young age to watch the ball and not listen to the QB. These kids did not do that they got distracted and gave up a TD because of it.

Not listen to the QB giving the cadence...but when he (and the opposing coach, mind you) are shouting things irrelevant to the play, kids are naturally going to get confused. You don't think the defensive team's coach drilled it into their heads to go when the ball moves? And yet, only 2 players moved (2 DL) and they merely stood up. The whole idea of the play is to deceive the defense into thinking the play isn't live.
 
Agreed (to disagree, that is)! :)

I think hawkdrummer said it best in the post a couple before mine...that's not what football is about.

I think that all three of us agree that this is not what football is all about. Like the thread saids this wouldnt work at the college level. If this was in a playoff game and a team lost because of it you could be mad because you would know that the score didnt reflect which team was physically better. That why I say better that they learn it young.
 
I think that all three of us agree that this is not what football is all about. Like the thread saids this wouldnt work at the college level. If this was in a playoff game and a team lost because of it you could be mad because you would know that the score didnt reflect which team was physically better. That why I say better that they learn it young.

The bolded part is absolutely right. But there really is no comparison between college and youth football. It won't work in college because the QB would likely end up in a hospital. It works at the youth level because the kids don't know any better. You are probably right about one thing...they won't fall for that play again. I feel bad for the youth coach who goes to this well one too many times and gets his QB badly injured trying this garbage.
 
The bolded part is absolutely right. But there really is no comparison between college and youth football. It won't work in college because the QB would likely end up in a hospital. It works at the youth level because the kids don't know any better. You are probably right about one thing...they won't fall for that play again. I feel bad for the youth coach who goes to this well one too many times and gets his QB badly injured trying this garbage.

The ball never gets to the QB in college or even high school. The second the center moves the ball he would get rocked and the ball would probably go flying.
 
The bolded part is absolutely right. But there really is no comparison between college and youth football. It won't work in college because the QB would likely end up in a hospital. It works at the youth level because the kids don't know any better. You are probably right about one thing...they won't fall for that play again. I feel bad for the youth coach who goes to this well one too many times and gets his QB badly injured trying this garbage.

It would work in college if they had never seen it before and or never been told to watch for something like this. Thats why I say why not have it happen to some kids who in ten years will never remember how many wins they had that year than have it happen for maybe just a first down in a high school playoff game.
 
I can't be certain, but I don't think it would work in college because those guys are liked trained animals when it comes to DL play. When that ball moves, those guys are making a break for the backfield and waiting for a whistle...without one, I think it would end badly for the offensive player. But that's all hypothetical.
 
I can't be certain, but I don't think it would work in college because those guys are liked trained animals when it comes to DL play. When that ball moves, those guys are making a break for the backfield and waiting for a whistle...without one, I think it would end badly for the offensive player. But that's all hypothetical.

Yes and this is the lesson that these kids were taught. Had this never happend and they had never heard of this, this would happen to older kids. I bet you could pull this kinda stuff on some old dudes playing flag football in the park. Its just a trick nothing more nothing less. Kinda like a guy who can make all sorts of shots in a game of horse. Those shots dont show that hes good at basketball just that he has practiced them. There are trick plays in every sport(baseball) the problem with this trick play in this sport is that if it doesnt work this kid gets laid out. But I think if you saw the hidden ball trick in baseball you wouldnt call the coach a jerk. Dont tell me the hidden ball trick is any different than this because its not.
 
Yes and this is the lesson that these kids were taught. Had this never happend and they had never heard of this, this would happen to older kids. I bet you could pull this kinda stuff on some old dudes playing flag football in the park. Its just a trick nothing more nothing less. Kinda like a guy who can make all sorts of shots in a game of horse. Those shots dont show that hes good at basketball just that he has practiced them. There are trick plays in every sport(baseball) the problem with this trick play in this sport is that if it doesnt work this kid gets laid out. But I think if you saw the hidden ball trick in baseball you wouldnt call the coach a jerk. Dont tell me the hidden ball trick is any different than this because its not.

It's not a trick! It's intentional deception/manipulation by a coach with the help of his players!

I don't know where you are going with the HORSE analogy...a guy can make non-game shots but can't play ball. And...?

Hidden ball trick, if you must make a correlation, is somewhat similar. And it is jerk-worthy at the youth level...while the manager can't impact that play as much, the kids on defense can. Kids are taught to wait until the pitcher is on the rubber before taking a lead...if they tag out the runner with the hidden ball trick when the pitcher is on the rubber it's a balk. But that's your correlation...if the kid doesn't take a lead, the pitcher can't step on the rubber, and the pitcher can be charged with a ball for delaying the game. But at the youth level that's a pretty bush league move...at the high school and above level, go for it and if it works, shame on the runner.
 
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It's not a trick! It's intentional deception/manipulation by a coach with the help of his players!

I don't know where you are going with the HORSE analogy...a guy can make non-game shots but can't play ball. And...?

Hidden ball trick, if you must make a correlation, is somewhat similar. And it is jerk-worthy at the youth level...while the manager can't impact that play as much, the kids on defense can. Kids are taught to wait until the pitcher is on the rubber before taking a lead...if they tag out the runner with the hidden ball trick when the pitcher is on the rubber it's a balk. But that's your correlation...if the kid doesn't take a lead, the pitcher can't step on the rubber, and the pitcher can be charged with a ball for delaying the game. But at the youth level that's a pretty bush league move...at the high school and above level, go for it and if it works, shame on the defense.

It means that this football play had nothing to do with football other than knowing the rules. Acting is what made the play work. This play = no football skills. Horse/trick shots=nothing you will use in a real game. This will be my last comment on this: if a kid can strap on a helmet they should be able to handle a trick play. They should realize that the other team will do whatever they can to win. That may be holding, cheating, trick plays, or whatever, yes some coaches will be jerks about certain things. A trick play is made to trick, decieve, or whatever you want to call it, to get the play to work. This play was not unfair. It was by the rules. The coach yelling is not breaking any rules. To say you can use this play against older kids but not these kids is really not a good argument. That is your only argument when it comes down to it. If they are old enough to play they are old enough to see a trick play. Next you could tell me that you cant use trick plays till the NFL per unspoken rule.
 
It means that this football play had nothing to do with football other than knowing the rules. Acting is what made the play work. This play = no football skills. Horse/trick shots=nothing you will use in a real game. This will be my last comment on this: if a kid can strap on a helmet they should be able to handle a trick play. They should realize that the other team will do whatever they can to win. That may be holding, cheating, trick plays, or whatever, yes some coaches will be jerks about certain things. A trick play is made to trick, decieve, or whatever you want to call it, to get the play to work. This play was not unfair. It was by the rules. The coach yelling is not breaking any rules. To say you can use this play against older kids but not these kids is really not a good argument. That is your only argument when it comes down to it. If they are old enough to play they are old enough to see a trick play. Next you could tell me that you cant use trick plays till the NFL per unspoken rule.

I'll end with this as well. You are correct, there is no football skill involved in this "play." Yet it was used in a football game...how many times are you going to be able to bounce a ball of a wall and make a basket in a real basketball game?

This is not a trick play. He called this play under the pretense that he knew it would only work if he and his players were able to deceive the defense into thinking the play wasn't live. That's not a trick play...that's where the manipulation with the coach yelling comes into play. Also, minor detail, but the play should have been blown dead anyway because the offense only had 6 men on the LOS. We can play with the verbage as much as you like...trick kids with hook and ladders, double passes, and quadruple reverses if you like. This isn't a trick play.

It's legality is in question...there was at least one penalty not called in the illegal formation. The ref, if he feels a team gained an unfair advantage due to aforementioned manipulation, can throw a penalty flag for unsportsmanlike conduct. The fact that they didn't on this play doesn't mean they didn't blow it...or maybe they felt like it was an ok play and just blew the illegal formation call.

You are also right in your point about this being my only argument when it comes to the age discussion. I only think this is abhorrent because of the age group where it's being utilized. If these were older kids, the coach would be scraping his QB off the field with a spatula. But since these are young kids, between his yelling and his players spoken words, he was able to trick/manipulate/deceive the defense into thinking there wasn't a live play.

Old enough for pads, old enough for a trick play? Absolutely...if it's a real trick play. Again, it's not an issue of tricking the opponent on a live ball play. I'm all for that, with the plays I mentioned above. But this isn't the same situation. The coach might be the nicest guy in the world, but this is a real low-class move.

Why would I tell you anything about the NFL and trick plays? You've already stated my only argument was about the age group, so why does anything in the NFL matter? I can't stress enough that I think there is a cavernous gap between a trick play and this nonsense...the NFL can do whatever the he!! they want.
 
why? Because instead of the QB making off with an 75 yd TD run, a defender wasn't fooled and did his job by tackling him? Kudos for the safety for being aware that it was hiked. Clean play. Moving on.
 
You guys are a bunch of crybabies. The first rule of defense is when the ball moves you go until you hear the whistle. It doesn't matter why the ball moves, or how it moves. It's no different than a fumblerooskie or any other play that involves deception.

Also can we stop pretending that we are standing up for the kids on the other team here? It's a game, and kids deal with winning and loosing games all the time. Parents on the other hand not so much. Something tells me the people screaming the loudest about this play on here are screaming the loudest at the officials, the coaches on thier team, the coaches on the other team, the kids on the other team when their own kids play.

Why do I always have to be the voice of reason in this place?
 
You guys are a bunch of crybabies. The first rule of defense is when the ball moves you go until you hear the whistle. It doesn't matter why the ball moves, or how it moves. It's no different than a fumblerooskie or any other play that involves deception.

Also can we stop pretending that we are standing up for the kids on the other team here? It's a game, and kids deal with winning and loosing games all the time. Parents on the other hand not so much. Something tells me the people screaming the loudest about this play on here are screaming the loudest at the officials, the coaches on thier team, the coaches on the other team, the kids on the other team when their own kids play.

Why do I always have to be the voice of reason in this place?

So you can just fly into a thread, quick call those that don't share your viewpoint a name, then self-proclaim yourself the voice of reason? Ok.:rolleyes:

Fumblerooskie isn't legal, so the reason is lacking there.

Let me just ask this question...if the coach thinks that the defense is going to know to react when the ball moves, "why the ball moves, or how it moves," does he run that "play"? You are kidding yourself if you think he does. If he doesn't, then he views the play as intentionally designed to create enough confusion between the kids yelling and the coaches yelling to deceive the defense into not knowing the ball is live.
 
... I only think this is abhorrent because of the age group where it's being utilized...

While I would normally agree - this was the middle school state championship game in Texas and the team that pulled the play off was losing and used this play to tie the game late in the game. If you are playing for the state championship in Texas - regardless of the level - you should be prepared for anything.
 

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