busabus114
Well-Known Member
This is true. Its nice to have a coach with integrity but its also nice to win. Ideally we could have both but in college athletics one is sacrificed for the other a lot of the time
Time to stop piling on Lick
- Thread starter SteveGarvey
- Start date
This is true. Its nice to have a coach with integrity but its also nice to win. Ideally we could have both but in college athletics one is sacrificed for the other a lot of the time
I have always thought that technically, Lick can coach bb at the Div 1 level. When I first heard of him about 5-6 years ago, he was cited as a ''coach's coach'' who could get a lot out of his players at Butler. So I concede that he can handle the x's and o's within his system.
But,as Jon points out, that is like having the inventer of the computer run IBM...
good technical expertise of the product,but lacking in the other 50% of the job.
I just have the sense that the window for lick to succeed at Iowa is closing..pretty quickly. Next year is a hail mary pass for him. I,like all hawk fans,would prefer we had a big year,made the NCAA tourny,and locked up Chasson Randle for our only scholly in 2011. I do not like our chances to achieve that,but hope we do.
Barring that, I do think Iowa's window for resurrecting the bb program will be open after next year,with the new facility,and a pretty full roster of solid,if not star quality players. I think that combo could attract the right coach,who would be able to mix in just enough spice to our roster,to pay immediate dividends the following year,and then have a big recruiting class the following year with his network and our facilities to sell. At this point I think that scenario has a better chance of success than keeping lick around after another mediocre season next year. If we do better than mediocre(top 6 in Big Ten) next year,I can live with another year of lick,but with a caveat of NCAA or bust in year 5.
As Jerry Krause once said of Doug Collins...''he could get us from A to B, but I do not think he could get us to C...which is why we are hiring Phil Jackson''
My opinion is that Lick got us to point B(new facility) but will not be able to get us to point C.
But,as Jon points out, that is like having the inventer of the computer run IBM...
good technical expertise of the product,but lacking in the other 50% of the job.
I just have the sense that the window for lick to succeed at Iowa is closing..pretty quickly. Next year is a hail mary pass for him. I,like all hawk fans,would prefer we had a big year,made the NCAA tourny,and locked up Chasson Randle for our only scholly in 2011. I do not like our chances to achieve that,but hope we do.
Barring that, I do think Iowa's window for resurrecting the bb program will be open after next year,with the new facility,and a pretty full roster of solid,if not star quality players. I think that combo could attract the right coach,who would be able to mix in just enough spice to our roster,to pay immediate dividends the following year,and then have a big recruiting class the following year with his network and our facilities to sell. At this point I think that scenario has a better chance of success than keeping lick around after another mediocre season next year. If we do better than mediocre(top 6 in Big Ten) next year,I can live with another year of lick,but with a caveat of NCAA or bust in year 5.
As Jerry Krause once said of Doug Collins...''he could get us from A to B, but I do not think he could get us to C...which is why we are hiring Phil Jackson''
My opinion is that Lick got us to point B(new facility) but will not be able to get us to point C.
burky247
Well-Known Member
But these expected results are not universal Duff. What would be acceptable at one school isn't necessarily what is acceptable at another. Pay and expectations go hand in hand.
My whole point is that if Lick didn't want the scrutiny or "piling on", he should have stayed at a lower tier university. It's not about whether or not "we" would be happy if he was making less. My post was that he had to expect this when accepted the position. More money...more expectations.
I agree this thread is pretty much arguing semantics.
koolhandlick
Well-Known Member
I don't know about going from point A to C but Lick has taken us from bad to worse. Put the credit where credit is due.
Actually he is in WAY over his head. He has proven it over the last 3 years that he can't coach at a big conference school.
loesshillshawk
Well-Known Member
You can have both...right now we have integrity with the worst stretch ever.
In hindsight it should have been a red flag that it took Lick so long to get a head coaching job. He was at Butler a long time before getting the gig. Matta was junior to Lick and promoted to coach before Lick. Obviously some people over their were hesitant to hand him the reigns, probably because they did not believe he had all the skills.
Unfortunately for Lick, he is not a very likable guy. He has little charisma, appears aloof, and it does not surprise me if he has communication problem. To be a Big 10 coach you need to be a people person, you need to convince 18-22 year old kids that your worth hanging around and listening too. Lick appears uninterested in the human side of coaching, whether its player relations, recruiting, or dealing with the media.
Compare Lick to Ferentz, both have similar "values," but who would you rather have a beer with? I would have to imagine Lick is a pretty boring dude to hang with. Ferentz, while mild mannered, has charisma, charm, humor, and general likability to him. Just see how he interacts with the media, his coaches, and players. Assistants love him, players speak glowingly about him.
Unfortunately for Lick, he is not a very likable guy. He has little charisma, appears aloof, and it does not surprise me if he has communication problem. To be a Big 10 coach you need to be a people person, you need to convince 18-22 year old kids that your worth hanging around and listening too. Lick appears uninterested in the human side of coaching, whether its player relations, recruiting, or dealing with the media.
Compare Lick to Ferentz, both have similar "values," but who would you rather have a beer with? I would have to imagine Lick is a pretty boring dude to hang with. Ferentz, while mild mannered, has charisma, charm, humor, and general likability to him. Just see how he interacts with the media, his coaches, and players. Assistants love him, players speak glowingly about him.
If he can't recruit at the Big 10 level, I'd say "he's in over his head", since his success depends on it.
If he will never change his defensive or offensive philosophy to fit the players he has on the roster, I'd say "he can't coach his way out of a wet paper bag".
If Steve Garvey couldn't hit a major league curve ball, he would have been "in over his head" and wouldn't have kept getting paid to play for the Dodgers, whether or not he was a nice guy or not.
You can either get the job done, or you can't and so far, Lick hasn't even come close.
If he will never change his defensive or offensive philosophy to fit the players he has on the roster, I'd say "he can't coach his way out of a wet paper bag".
If Steve Garvey couldn't hit a major league curve ball, he would have been "in over his head" and wouldn't have kept getting paid to play for the Dodgers, whether or not he was a nice guy or not.
You can either get the job done, or you can't and so far, Lick hasn't even come close.
HawkeyeMike23
Banned
Just curious, but everyone refers to Lick as such a good guy, and a guy with great integrity, is there a specific reason for this? I don't know the guy, I've never met him, but he seems stand off-ish, he seems to throw his players under the bus occasionally, and he's ran a lot of players off, which doesn't seem to bother him. I don't think he's ever been in trouble with the law, and thats good, but I don't think I've ever heard him speak and walked away thinking, wow he sounds like a great guy.
NewMexHawk
Well-Known Member
Iowa BB can be compared to a large business and Barta and Lickliter as two of the top managers, with Lickliter making a nice salary for his position. The market demands the salary he makes, thus his position demands a certain performance. The position is open to criticism and because the salary is so much greater than the average Iowa fan makes it also will come into discussion just because of the amount, regardless of market demands.
Most Iowa fans probably feel that if in a similar position THEY would be required to produce or THEY would be out of a job even making much less money, and in the private business world, if they produced what Lickliter did, there is no doubt they probably would be fired quickly if they did the dismal job that Lickliter has done. They would not be given 3 years to do what Lickliter has done and be given another and have the boss tell everyone he has complete faith in them to boot! They would be handed a pink slip and that would be it.
Unfortunately, in the college arena, and especially at Iowa, it appears that is not the case, job performance is not much of a barrier IF the present AD hires you because his/her ego is involved and he has given the coach a foolish 7-year contract based on little facts. Any glimmer of hope is fine with the AD and many fans as is any excuse by the coach as to why he cannot win. If Lickliter performed in another job as he has as a coach at Iowa, he would be standing on a streetcorner with a sign that reads, "Will coach for food."
Most Iowa fans probably feel that if in a similar position THEY would be required to produce or THEY would be out of a job even making much less money, and in the private business world, if they produced what Lickliter did, there is no doubt they probably would be fired quickly if they did the dismal job that Lickliter has done. They would not be given 3 years to do what Lickliter has done and be given another and have the boss tell everyone he has complete faith in them to boot! They would be handed a pink slip and that would be it.
Unfortunately, in the college arena, and especially at Iowa, it appears that is not the case, job performance is not much of a barrier IF the present AD hires you because his/her ego is involved and he has given the coach a foolish 7-year contract based on little facts. Any glimmer of hope is fine with the AD and many fans as is any excuse by the coach as to why he cannot win. If Lickliter performed in another job as he has as a coach at Iowa, he would be standing on a streetcorner with a sign that reads, "Will coach for food."
SteveGarvey
Well-Known Member
I don't have a problem with calling him stubborn, inflexible or outdated. He may be those things. But the other characterizations imply stupidity and lack of cajones and such and I don't think that's right.
They called Bill Belichick "Beavis and " Belichick when he coached for Cleveland and he ended up doing alright in New England. He wasn't stupid nor lack testicular fortitude, he just didn't get the job done in Cleveland.
Maybe Lick won't get the job done here, but sheez the Jihadic wing -if you will- needs to chill a little on the name-calling.
FreddyBrown
Moderator
Gather round and get out your cameras, folks, 'cuz that right there is what they call "irony"...or--if you will--"hypocrisy."
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SteveGarvey
Well-Known Member
Gather round and get out your cameras, folks, 'cuz that right there is what they call "irony"...or--if you will--"hypocrisy."
Really? I always thought "Jihadic wing" was a humorous dig at over-intense Hawk fans. My bad.
FreddyBrown
Moderator
I have no problem with that term, Steve--but I think you might be hard-pressed to draw a meaningful distinction between the use of a term like that and "can't coach his way out of a paper bag."
jshawks
Well-Known Member
Well I don't consider myself part of the "jihadic wing" but I do think that Lick is in way over his head. It is clear to many that he can't recruit, but that is not as bad as not getting everything out of his players. Iowa's football program has made a living off of taking underated talent and getting more out of them than the so called "experts" ever thought possible. Tom Davis was accused of not being able to recruit, yet he consistantly got more out of his players than their apparant talent level. At the very least he was loved and admired by his players, and his teams were fun to watch with their full court press. I understand it is difficult to get 5 star recruits to come to Iowa. But given the talent disparity you either have to install a system that levels the playing field somewhat ie. some zone defense, or be able to fire your kids up and motivate them enough to play over their abilities. Lick does neither. I don't see that fire, and it is painful to watch these kids struggle and seemingly just go through the motions in a system that not only doesn't create a level playing field but exploits the talent differential. Lick seems oblivious to this problem, and the lack of intensity by our players coupled with the transfer issues gives a sense that deep down our players don't believe in their coach and his "system" either. In a mid major conference where there is going to be very little talent disparity you can probably get away with stubbornly sticking to a system without being the best of motivators. But in the bright and harsh spotlight of the Big 10 conference that is a perfect storm for disaster, and to me that is the sheer definition of being "in over his head".
