I'm not a fire Kirk guy, but if there is one glaring criticism in regards to the results of the team in the last 5-6 years, it's our noticeable absence from the top 25. The team was unranked every week during the 2011, 2012, 2013, and 2014 seasons. The 2015 season the Hawkeyes were ranked in the top 25 in each of the last nine games and followed that up with being ranked for the first 3 weeks of 2016 and wouldn't return in the top 25 until before the bowl game. Meanwhile, in 2017 Iowa hasn't been in the top 25 yet and it doesn't like they are going to be. From 2011 to present, Iowa has only been ranked in the top 25 in 13 of their last 85 games. Why this is relevant to me is that I consider Iowa to be a top 20-25 program or at least that's where I believe they should be most of the time with the occasional year that is better and the occasional year that is worse. Over the last 6 seasons, Iowa hasn't reached those expectations and since the start of 2011 they have a respectable but not great 51-35 record with a 59.3 winning percentage. Like I said, this isn't a fire Kirk post, but I understand a certain level of the frustration surrounding the program at this moment. For the record, I do think the future is brighter in regards to the next couple of seasons.
The one legit complaint of this part of the Ferentz era
- Thread starter thefizz
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WinOneThisCentury
Well-Known Member
You have to understand, as Iowans, we appreciate the close loss more than most fan bases. This year is a perfect example...three close losses, one score games. Those games are like wins to the Iowa fan base.
Your analysis is valid and one that forces you to look beyond the great fun of that 2015 season and the last few beat downs of Nebraska. Is the program headed in the right direction? I would say yes, as I truly believe recruiting has improved at the skill positions. Now Kirk & Son need to show that we can play offense against a defense with the pulse. Penn State teased, but MSU and NW, were completely loser game plans.
There are always going to be excuses. 2012, we were 4-2 coming off a win at Michigan State, and two offensive linemen go down for the year the next game. We didn't win again. This year...two senior linemen have gone down, and we start two freshmen at the offensive tackle position. I'll be the first to tell you, it's really hard to win in the B10 when you start two freshmen at offensive tackle. Well, here's my issue. Injuries happen, and it's the coaches responsibility to recruit depth. How is it that we don't have a RS Soph or Junior ahead of a true freshman at offensive tackle? I'm not slamming Wirfs either...this kid has first round NFL draft pick written all over him. I'm just asking the question.
Sure injuries have hurt the offense...but where is the depth?
Your analysis is valid and one that forces you to look beyond the great fun of that 2015 season and the last few beat downs of Nebraska. Is the program headed in the right direction? I would say yes, as I truly believe recruiting has improved at the skill positions. Now Kirk & Son need to show that we can play offense against a defense with the pulse. Penn State teased, but MSU and NW, were completely loser game plans.
There are always going to be excuses. 2012, we were 4-2 coming off a win at Michigan State, and two offensive linemen go down for the year the next game. We didn't win again. This year...two senior linemen have gone down, and we start two freshmen at the offensive tackle position. I'll be the first to tell you, it's really hard to win in the B10 when you start two freshmen at offensive tackle. Well, here's my issue. Injuries happen, and it's the coaches responsibility to recruit depth. How is it that we don't have a RS Soph or Junior ahead of a true freshman at offensive tackle? I'm not slamming Wirfs either...this kid has first round NFL draft pick written all over him. I'm just asking the question.
Sure injuries have hurt the offense...but where is the depth?
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EstronHawkKing
Well-Known Member
I wish I could be as un-productive as Kirk, keep my job and get paid millions. But he's a nice guy!
hawkeyebob62
Well-Known Member
My issue with the whole "depth" thing is that there seems to be this dichotomy between depth and development.
It's great that the program does some great things developing players, but three- and four-year starters are rare. I get that we aren't loaded with 5* guys, nor will we ever be loaded with 5* players. We have years where graduation decimates a whole unit. WTF? Why does that even happen?
#1DieHardHawk
Well-Known Member
Time will tell if the increased attention to recruiting will pay off, but the emphasis is tangible. At least the coaching staff has finally come around to the importance of being not only aggressive, but also creative when it comes to recruiting.
The inability to recruit at the offensive line positions has been one of the most frustrating and perplexing things of the past 10 years or so. It just doesn't make sense when you have the history and reputation that Kirk has when it comes to the line, but, year in and year out, we miss on top OL prospects. Now, just like the rest of recruiting, this has picked up lately, but the lack of depth and reliance on converted TEs and walk-ons over and over is maddening.
As for this season, I may be in the minority, but I honestly don't feel that losing Myers and Boettger has been that major (a converted TE and a walk-on, BTW). Nothing personal, but Myers was average at best, especially at tackle (just ask Beathard...), and Boettger looks great on paper but was not playing any better than Wirfs is currently at the time of his injury and was a turnstile at times last season. Perhaps he would have rounded into shape but that is an unknown. Don't get me wrong, injuries are never good, but I just don't think the drop-off in play has been as great as some think.
The inability to recruit at the offensive line positions has been one of the most frustrating and perplexing things of the past 10 years or so. It just doesn't make sense when you have the history and reputation that Kirk has when it comes to the line, but, year in and year out, we miss on top OL prospects. Now, just like the rest of recruiting, this has picked up lately, but the lack of depth and reliance on converted TEs and walk-ons over and over is maddening.
As for this season, I may be in the minority, but I honestly don't feel that losing Myers and Boettger has been that major (a converted TE and a walk-on, BTW). Nothing personal, but Myers was average at best, especially at tackle (just ask Beathard...), and Boettger looks great on paper but was not playing any better than Wirfs is currently at the time of his injury and was a turnstile at times last season. Perhaps he would have rounded into shape but that is an unknown. Don't get me wrong, injuries are never good, but I just don't think the drop-off in play has been as great as some think.
It happens because of poor recruiting. I'm not expecting to get 5 star guys, but 3 and 4 star players should be gotten on a regular basis. KF has been here 19 years, this isn't his first 5 years. The OP is complaining that we aren't in the top 25 on a regular basis, well gee I wonder why? It starts with recruiting. To the people that think the next couple of seasons will be better, not likely. People have been saying that every year when we stink on offense. Show me any difference maker we have at a skill position. Our class coming in is near the bottom of the conference, which is completely unacceptable. The defense will take a huge hit next year as well with the loss of Jewell especially, and Niemann.
HawkGold
Well-Known Member
Something Ive noticed having lived in 4 states neighboring Iowa and spending quite a bit of time in California.
Iowa is a very average state. Its a nice place to live. Its nothing special but its certainly a decent state for the most part though some of the rural towns have really deteriorated.
Most I know like living in Iowa. People are content. The Hawks are king of a mirror of the state. Sound. Solid. Respectable. Far from exciting or even great. Iowans are content about the Hawks.
Iowans are very defensive about their state. Sometimes if comes across a bit condencendingly defensive when outsiders talk about the weaknesses of the state. Its the same in defense of the Hawks.
HF came along just before the ag depression. He gave us a nice destraction at a tough time. Some will always miss his attitude in comparison w KF.
Iowa is a very average state. Its a nice place to live. Its nothing special but its certainly a decent state for the most part though some of the rural towns have really deteriorated.
Most I know like living in Iowa. People are content. The Hawks are king of a mirror of the state. Sound. Solid. Respectable. Far from exciting or even great. Iowans are content about the Hawks.
Iowans are very defensive about their state. Sometimes if comes across a bit condencendingly defensive when outsiders talk about the weaknesses of the state. Its the same in defense of the Hawks.
HF came along just before the ag depression. He gave us a nice destraction at a tough time. Some will always miss his attitude in comparison w KF.
WinOneThisCentury
Well-Known Member
I completely disagree about a healthy Meyers and Boettger...it's showing up in the run game big time and the cohesiveness of the entire offense. Wirfs has played two games...Ike and Boone played the entire 2015 season and know what it takes to be successful. No drop off...hardly. Meyers hasn't been healthy in a long time...that's unfortunate. Ike was playing pretty solid football over the past two years...he has some issues with speed rushers....but he punished people in the running game.
trj
Well-Known Member
I’ve been thinking about this a lot lately. I look at Frank Beamer at Va. Tech. from 04-11 their program won double digit games each season. His last 4 seasons they were a 7-6 program. I was thinking to myself which I would prefer: a condensed version like Beamer or a spread out version like KF? I really don’t know what I would prefer.
Btw, they are currently 17-6 under Fuentes so the transition has gone well.
Btw, they are currently 17-6 under Fuentes so the transition has gone well.
#1DieHardHawk
Well-Known Member
The struggles in the run game go way beyond just losing those two players. Having a new QB, new OC, new OL coach, defenses "selling out" against the run this season, and a drop-off in blocking talent at FB all have contributed.
I think it's human nature to elevate a player's ability/importance when they get hurt. I'm not saying they are bad players at all, but, being completely objective, neither was close to all-conference material either. There would be some expected drop-off whenever you lose experienced players. My point is that I just don't think the loss of Myers and Boettger, while significant, is as dramatic as some are making it out to be. Ironically, we will be much better at the O-line next season with Jackson and Wirfs getting extensive experience now, and both have ceilings way higher than Myers or Boettger.
---------The team was unranked every week during the 2011, 2012, 2013, and 2014 seasons.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
More than enough reason for firing
----------Like I said, this isn't a fire Kirk post
It should be.
-------For the record, I do think the future is brighter in regards to the next couple of seasons.
Seriously folks, where is this shit suddenly coming from????
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
More than enough reason for firing
----------Like I said, this isn't a fire Kirk post
It should be.
-------For the record, I do think the future is brighter in regards to the next couple of seasons.
Seriously folks, where is this shit suddenly coming from????
seepig
Well-Known Member
Totally agree with your essay. For the money we pay him simply winning 7 games/yr. with at least 3 cupcakes in the schedule every year isn’t fair performance for his compensation. Again let’s bring an OC in make him OL coach and take the OL coach and make him the OC. My biggest gripe is some of the garbage he does with his assistants.
I totally disagree with this. Maybe ISU is like that or Illinois or Vanderbilt but myself and most hawk fans I know do not appreciate the close losses. I really hate the losses to teams we should beat especially the often mentioned games we are double digit favorites.
I didnt think we would be that close to PSU but after watching the hawks and then watching us play Sparty the jNW I would say we pissed away two good chances of having only one loss at this time.
If you want be content with close losses that is fine by you not me. I agree with the OP that this team should be ranked way more often that not.
HawkU
Well-Known Member
I've wondered the same thing. I can understand the first few years as it takes some time to fill the pipe. But 18 years later?
Kind of like a new business starting out and perfecting their lead generation and sales process. But once it's fine tuned there should be no wild up and down swings.
Agreed. Overall recruiting is not where it needs to be.
I do disagree with the second bolded comment. I think Fant, TJ, & ISM are all better athletes than we're used to seeing at TE/WR. I also think that Young and IKM could be a good combo down the line. And Nate stands in the pocket and delivers the ball better than anyone Iowa's had at QB in a long time. CJ, JR, & Vandy were all bail out or duck and cover when the pocket collapsed. I guess we'll see if their potential turns into production.
But here is the problem, I'm not sure it really matters. We've seen some good players at offensive skill positions at Iowa in the past and for the most part Iowa's offense has been bad under KF for nearly 20 years. I will say this about 2017, there have been big plays there in every game that could have been made but most often the players (many of the guys I mentioned above) haven't made them. Most seasons on GD, those plays simply were not there period.
#1DieHardHawk
Well-Known Member
Agree.
I think the staff has made a concerted effort to target better athleticism at the skill positions in the last 2-3 cycles. The real criticism is why did it take so long for them to "get it?"
I do think it matters, though. We've had a few okay athletes during Kirk's tenure, but we've never had a situation where we had really good athletes across the board. Defensive coordinators have a much easier job when they can focus on one or two players, but it gets exponentially more difficult when you have to account for the QB, a RB, at least one WR and a TE at the same time.
I think the staff has made a concerted effort to target better athleticism at the skill positions in the last 2-3 cycles. The real criticism is why did it take so long for them to "get it?"
I do think it matters, though. We've had a few okay athletes during Kirk's tenure, but we've never had a situation where we had really good athletes across the board. Defensive coordinators have a much easier job when they can focus on one or two players, but it gets exponentially more difficult when you have to account for the QB, a RB, at least one WR and a TE at the same time.
earlkoppelman
Well-Known Member
COMPLAINT OK. NEVER putting other otway so
Never putting other team away so SUBS get EXPERENCE.
Well if you're Iowa lets look at what's coming back next year...
-A starting QB with experience that has shown potential.
-Every WR of note aside from Vandeburg.
-Two TE's come back.
-The OL will return 4 out of 5 starters including true freshman who will be in his first offseason in the strength and conditioning program.
-The DL will return everyone aside from Bazata. Considering Iowa rotates close to 8 guys, this will be a huge strength.
-Hopefully two CBs, one of which has shown that he is probably Iowa's next great CB. The other showed flashes before battling injuries.
-Two safeties with starting experience. Hooker has already been a major upgrade over Miles Taylor.
By this count, Iowa will return 7 starters on offense along with 3 others that are getting playing time in 2 TE and 3-4 WR packages and 7 starters on defense along with 3 other guys that are getting playing time on rotations. Oh yeah, and a lot of those guys returning won't be Seniors so they'll be around for 2018 and 2019. What's listed above looks a lot better than what was coming into this season. I know it's hard for some to comprehend this, but players get better the more time they are at almost any program. If the fact that Iowa should be and probably will be better in 2018 and 2019 doesn't make sense to someone, then that someone is merely someone that likes watching dudes in pads and cloth carry a pigs bladder around rather than think critically about what is going on.
Yes, this is my biggest gripe. The style of play on offense keeps it a one or two possession game most of the time. While there are pros and cons to that strategy, the most problematic is the fact that it is not conducive to ever getting our twos and threes meaningful game snaps. That means the backups have no game experience when they are expected to carry the load the following year. That is why I can't buy the whole inexperience excuse/crap that Miller sells -- that's a coaching problem. Perhaps hire a competent OC that can get us some breathing room in these games against the patsies.
