The health of the people in our country

[CP87]

I like your last question in that sentence. Some other answers could be....

Vaccines are overall a net positive so it's better to hide the negative affects.

The opioid situation was so obvious there was simply no way to keep it hidden.

More powerful people would go down with the vaccine scandal.

I'm not saying any of those are true. Just giving some possibilities reasons to your very reasonable question.

To your conspiratorial leanings, I will say this...

It never surprises me when rich and powerful people do some dirt to get more rich and powerful. So, at some point, if a story came out that some pharm corp applied some pressure somewhere they shouldn't have, or tried to cover something up, I would not be shocked. But vaccines, and drugs in general, are tested with great rigor. And they are tested independent of the pharm corps that produce them. So, we don't hear stories like that often because it is difficult/impossible for pharm companies to pull off such a swindle.

The opioid scandal had nothing to do with the effectiveness of oxycontin, or of immediate side effects. It had to do with ignoring reality (the "slow release" formulation meant to minimize the high and hence addictiveness was meaningless because patients were crushing and snorting), and highly unethical distribution practices (https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC2622774/).

If you want to wage war on the pharm giants, I think they have it coming in many cases. But mostly for price inflation and unethical marketing, not hiding evidence that their drugs are a sham or dangerous. But even in that sense, these companies are largely playing within the rules, so we get back to our broken, profit-driven healthcare system.

 

[PCHawk]

To your conspiratorial leanings, I will say this...

It never surprises me when rich and powerful people do some dirt to get more rich and powerful. So, at some point, if a story came out that some pharm corp applied some pressure somewhere they shouldn't have, or tried to cover something up, I would not be shocked. But vaccines, and drugs in general, are tested with great rigor. And they are tested independent of the pharm corps that produce them. So, we don't hear stories like that often because it is difficult/impossible for pharm companies to pull off such a swindle.

The opioid scandal had nothing to do with the effectiveness of oxycontin, or of immediate side effects. It had to do with ignoring reality (the "slow release" formulation meant to minimize the high and hence addictiveness was meaningless because patients were crushing and snorting), and highly unethical distribution practices (https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC2622774/).

If you want to wage war on the pharm giants, I think they have it coming in many cases. But mostly for price inflation and unethical marketing, not hiding evidence that their drugs are a sham or dangerous. But even in that sense, these companies are largely playing within the rules, so we get back to our broken, profit-driven healthcare system.

Truth be told "wouldn't be surprised" is exactly where I'm at. People on here think I'm more 'conspiracy theorist" than I am because I spend too much time arguing against the "no way anything shady is going on" crowd. One thing Kennedy explains (and again, he could be flat out lying) is that most places that do the studies are funded mostly by big pharma. He talks a lot about a huge conflict of interest that goes on in that world. I think if anyone listened to what Kennedy actually says instead of just soundbites they would be hard pressed to not walk away thinking he makes a lot of sense. He talks about so many specific cases and no one ever refutes those things. Put together they are very damning.

If he's not telling the truth it would be so easy to call him out on specific lies he's telling. Instead of doing that they just try to silence him and label him a conspiracy theorist. In my opinion, guys who are lying are more vague in what they say. They be careful not to site specific things that can be easily debunked. That's not what Kennedy does. He lists specific after specific after specific.

One thing Rogan has mentioned quite a few times about Kennedy is the book he wrote about Fauci. He says there are so many things in that book that he could be sued over for lying about if they were lies, yet he doesn't get sued. In Rogan's opinion, if someone says the things about you that Kennedy says about Fauci, you would almost have to sue him. I personally haven't read the book so I can't agree or disagree. But the line of thinking makes a lot of sense.

 

[Fryowa]

Not sure what's funny about that. Is it funny because when guys who are considered experts their whole career speak out against things they become conspiracy theorists while people say "show me evidence" and "experts say it's safe"? Or is it funny because you think if someone goes on Joe Rogan they are instantly not experts anymore?

Medical/health "experts" who go on Rogan are only considered experts by his cult following. I don't expect you to understand or agree with that. No need for either of us to try and persuade each other.

He has them on his show because 1) they're controversial and get clicks and thus more money, and 2) they espouse opinions he agrees with.

 

[Hawkboys]

Is RFK Jr an expert or is he a conspiracy theorist? I'm pretty sure he leans heavily into the conspiracy theorist side of things. You want him to be in control of all your rights regarding your health care?

I think he's a little of both. Many of the atrocities of the 20th century were originally "conspiracies." Is he full of it on some things? Likely, but there's a lot of smoke in the areas of big Pharma and government agencies pushing agendas outside of the science.

I always tell my teenage kids, you have a choice - do you want to give the power to corrupt people in government or the corrupt people in corporations? Unlike Fry, I don't think individuals are corrupt that go into positions of power, but the systems they collectively produce make corruption almost inevitable. Which is why I like that RFK wants to provide some accountability in both gov't and corps. It just remains to be seen if he's looking in to the right places to do it.

 

[Fryowa]

Unlike Fry, I don't think individuals are corrupt that go into positions of power

If you go into a political position of power to make a career out of it you are corrupt. Hard stop.

 

[Glass1/2fullguy]

Medical/health "experts" who go on Rogan are only considered experts by his cult following. I don't expect you to understand or agree with that. No need for either of us to try and persuade each other.

He has them on his show because 1) they're controversial and get clicks and thus more money, and 2) they espouse opinions he agrees with.

With that statement i'm curious just how many rogan interviews have you listened too? And BTW, i've only listened to three of them. Trump, Musk, & Casey Means. Casey Means is the only one i would consider an "expert" in the topic of what was discussed in the 3 hr long interview.

 

[Fryowa]

With that statement i'm curious just how many rogan interviews have you listened too? And BTW, i've only listened to three of them. Trump, Musk, & Casey Means. Casey Means is the only one i would consider an "expert" in the topic of what was discussed in the 3 hr long interview.

I subscribe to his podcast actually because I like a lot of the comedians he has on. So I see the other guests as well when he comes across my feed. I listen to a some of them. Listened to lots but not all of the pseudo scientific and conspiracy theorist episodes.

I don't disagree with everything RFK does. But he's a businessman first and profits greatly from the groups and positions he holds and represents. Anyone who tries to sell me advice that they stand to make money from isn't credible in my opinion.

Means is a salesperson first and not an expert. Look at her website. 90% of the "research" she goes on and on about isn't peer reviewed, it's her own "test results" on her own body. Look at her website newsletters. She's big into spirituality and "energy," and blah blah blah. But it sells products to idiots and it sells advertising on podcasts.

Also, she's not a doctor in the sense that she portrays. She doesn't treat patients, she doesn't have an active medical license, and she "practices functional medicine" (her quote) which is about the same level of quackery as chiropractic. She's not engaged in academic, peer-reviewed research, she isn't doing anything in the least that's scientific. She's also endorsed and supported by political lobbies for profit.

Remember, just because someone sounds really knowledgeable and expert-like in an interview doesn't mean he or she is an expert. People need to dig deeper into what's behind the facades of these "experts." Critical thinking like we were taught in grade school goes a long ways and it exposes a lot of these people who to me are more L. Ron Hubbard than legit professionals we should trust.

Like I've said numerous times though, I could not possibly care less about changing someone's mind here. This whole thread and OT forum to me is humor and some fun time-killing. It's hilarious banter with a bunch of people to add some spice to a dull day.

 

[Westernhawk]

My primary care doctor and I have a long term positive relationship. She listens to me. She provides options. She is damn thorough. If I am nervous, she recommends appropriate tests. A couple of times she has lined me up with a good specialist. Does not overdue the drugs. I am old and have some health challenges. But I have been on the planet a long time. And it appears I will have a few more years. Yeah, Yeah. I know. No guarantees.

Why on God’s green earth would I not trust her? She highly recommends vaccines, but I decide. Don’t you guys/gals rely on your physicians? Quite frankly, I don’t listen to 100 different sources. She is my go too. End of story.

I mean no offense, but I think you are missing the boat. Debate away, I guess. Not me.
Oh my God! I wore a mask!

BTW: I get the seasonal flu shot annually. I have taken 4 covid shots and will continue With recommended boosters. I also received the other 3 or 4 shots recommended for those of us over 60. Shingles, Pneumonia, etc. Results: No Covid, no seasonal flu, no shingles, no pneumonia, no nothing. No side effects, except for a lot of comfort and peace of mind.

Goddamm that's incredibly logical and thoughtful. Thanks for the post. Politicians and conspiracy theorists made this a thing.

 

[Fryowa]

BTW: I get the seasonal flu shot annually. I have taken 4 covid shots and will continue With recommended boosters. I also received the other 3 or 4 shots recommended for those of us over 60. Shingles, Pneumonia, etc. Results: No Covid, no seasonal flu, no shingles, no pneumonia, no nothing. No side effects, except for a lot of comfort and peace of mind.

I've known a few older folks who've gotten shingles and holy shit they were miserable. After seeing that, once I'm supposed to start getting that shot you can bet your ass I'm going to be at the clinic when the door opens for the day.

 

[Glass1/2fullguy]

My primary care doctor and I have a long term positive relationship. She listens to me. She provides options. She is damn thorough. If I am nervous, she recommends appropriate tests. A couple of times she has lined me up with a good specialist. Does not overdue the drugs. I am old and have some health challenges. But I have been on the planet a long time. And it appears I will have a few more years. Yeah, Yeah. I know. No guarantees.

Why on God’s green earth would I not trust her? She highly recommends vaccines, but I decide. Don’t you guys/gals rely on your physicians? Quite frankly, I don’t listen to 100 different sources. She is my go too. End of story.

I mean no offense, but I think you are missing the boat. Debate away, I guess. Not me.
Oh my God! I wore a mask!

BTW: I get the seasonal flu shot annually. I have taken 4 covid shots and will continue With recommended boosters. I also received the other 3 or 4 shots recommended for those of us over 60. Shingles, Pneumonia, etc. Results: No Covid, no seasonal flu, no shingles, no pneumonia, no nothing. No side effects, except for a lot of comfort and peace of mind.

For my everyday health and well being? Absolutely not. I do not need help from a physician to tell me how to live a healthy life. I'm 45 and have visited a physician maybe 10 times over the last 25 years. I never take the seasonal flu shot and would never take the covid vaccine. Result: I get the seasonal flu, cold, and/or covid either every year to sometimes every other year. I let it run it's coarse and allow my body fights it off the way it's designed too. Just a different mindset i guess. Too each his own.

That said if i had a real health issue i would most definately seek out medical advice.

 

[PCHawk]

Peter McCullough was absolutely an expert pre covid. Once he spoke out against how it was handled he was completely ostracized. There's basically three possibilities for what happened. One is that he saw things that proved the main covid narrative was wrong and decided to do the right thing and speak out. Two is that he thought he saw things that were wrong and it turns out he was wrong. Three is that he saw an avenue to bring it a lot of money by being the controversial voice. I think all three of those are possible.

What I don’t like if it was one of the first two possibilities is that with science, you're supposed to welcome differing opinions and debate them. With the polio vaccine, you can make the argument that it has been debated long enough and at some point you have to tell people to shut the hell up because they are causing unneeded skepticism. While I don't fully agree with that, I can definitely see that side of things. But with covid, everything was all new and they even admit now they didn't really know what they were doing and made a lot of mistakes in hindsight. That isn't a situation where you shut down opposing opinions, yet that's exactly what they did. That screams corruption to me.