The health of the people in our country

[PCHawk]

What this comes down to is epistemology, or how we think we know things.

I am of the view that we know things through accumulation and interpretation of evidence, and lacking evidence on a given topic, or if I lack the expertise and time to find and evaluate evidence on a certain topic, I will trust experts in that area.

You seem to be of the opinion that nothing can be known and everything is corrupt. In areas where the evidence is as unequivocal as it could be (e.g. vaccines and autism), you claim that the evidence cannot be trusted because of corrupt actors. That is an unfalsifiable position that is not really worth debating. You trust your intuition and internet "research" over the advice of experts and professionals because you believe everyone is out to make a buck off you. Your combination of cynicism, nihilism, and hubris leads you to believe that your opinion on these matters is as valid as that of anyone else, no matter their level of expertise.

Probably not much point in continuing this conversation. We can keep it to sports over on the other boards.

You say you will trust the experts, but what happens when experts believe something else and are silenced? It's easy to say "all the experts agree with me" when all the experts who don't agree with you are silenced, discredited, or fired. And now four years later all the experts are saying they got a lot of stuff wrong but they were "working with the information they had at the time". That's a pretty bogus thing to say when other people were trying to show the information they "didn't have" and were silenced.

And yes I'm cynical. I lived through covid and the way they were reporting it and what I lived were completely different. If you're living in a pandemic you don't have to be told you are. If the government would have decided to keep covid a secret and never even mention it, I would have never had a clue there was a "dangerous pandemic" going on. They could have said "the flu this year is worse than normal" (they've said this a lot in my lifetime) and I wouldn't have ever questioned a thing. I bet no one who lived during the Spanish flu could have said that. But I guess maybe I'm just lucky and everyone else watched people drop like flies around them. Anyone who had the luck to live that reality I sympathize with and I definitely wouldn't belittle their opinion. But the reality I lived suggests we got duped and a lot of people got rich.

 

[Glass1/2fullguy]

I had no intention for this thread to turn into a debate about the covid vaccine. The only reason I mentioned vaccine in my original post is because of this: 4 years later our government is still pushing and promoting everyone to get the covid vaccine vs promoting everyone to get healthy. That’s the point. They’d rather treat the symptom and not get to the root of the problem. Why is this? If our nation was healthy the reasonable conclusion would be the mortality rate would’ve been much lower. We know this yet our leaders are still promoting to treat the symptom (get vaccinated) vs promoting health. It was stated we don’t yet know the long term affects of covid. True, likewise we don’t yet know the long term affects of the vaccine. I would find it odd to not be cynical in regards to covid, the vaccine, and how it was all handled.

 

[HuckFinn]

I had no intention for this thread to turn into a debate about the covid vaccine. The only reason I mentioned vaccine in my original post is because of this: 4 years later our government is still pushing and promoting everyone to get the covid vaccine vs promoting everyone to get healthy. That’s the point. They’d rather treat the symptom and not get to the root of the problem. Why is this? If our nation was healthy the reasonable conclusion would be the mortality rate would’ve been much lower. We know this yet our leaders are still promoting to treat the symptom (get vaccinated) vs promoting health. It was stated we don’t yet know the long term affects of covid. True, likewise we don’t yet know the long term affects of the vaccine. I would find it odd to not be cynical in regards to covid, the vaccine, and how it was all handled.

Grow up and deal with reality. Talk to your Doctor and get a recommendation based on his/her knowledge of your medical history. Then take it our leave it. It is highly unlikely that you have the where with all to make your decision without consulting someone more highly trained than you are. And, as any good doctor will tell you: “Up to you, big boy.”

 

[Glass1/2fullguy]

Grow up and deal with reality. Talk to your Doctor and get a recommendation based on his/her knowledge of your medical history. Then take it our leave it. It is highly unlikely that you have the where with all to make your decision without consulting someone more highly trained than you are. And, as any good doctor will tell you: “Up to you, big boy.”

Weird post but I expect nothing less from you. The reality you live in is clearly extremely different than mine. You’ve made that clear over the years. I find it odd you seem offended by someone wanting to promote us getting healthy as a nation. Our healthcare costs are skyrocketing because of your mindset. You probably go to your dr for the common cold or flu. Get yourself healthy and maybe you’d need to go to the dr less. I have enough common sense to know if I eat healthy, drink plenty of water, and exercise then I more than likely won’t need a dr for the many preventable health issues so many unhealthy Americans deal with.

 

[PCHawk]

I had no intention for this thread to turn into a debate about the covid vaccine. The only reason I mentioned vaccine in my original post is because of this: 4 years later our government is still pushing and promoting everyone to get the covid vaccine vs promoting everyone to get healthy. That’s the point. They’d rather treat the symptom and not get to the root of the problem. Why is this? If our nation was healthy the reasonable conclusion would be the mortality rate would’ve been much lower. We know this yet our leaders are still promoting to treat the symptom (get vaccinated) vs promoting health. It was stated we don’t yet know the long term affects of covid. True, likewise we don’t yet know the long term affects of the vaccine. I would find it odd to not be cynical in regards to covid, the vaccine, and how it was all handled.

Covid is probably here forever and the vaccine sure isn't stopping people from getting it. So if there are long term affects of covid, we're all screwed.

 

[HuckFinn]

Weird post but I expect nothing less from you. The reality you live in is clearly extremely different than mine. You’ve made that clear over the years. I find it odd you seem offended by someone wanting to promote us getting healthy as a nation. Our healthcare costs are skyrocketing because of your mindset. You probably go to your dr for the common cold or flu. Get yourself healthy and maybe you’d need to go to the dr less. I have enough common sense to know if I eat healthy, drink plenty of water, and exercise then I more than likely won’t need a dr for the many preventable health issues so many unhealthy Americans deal with.

There is so much wrong with your post that I don’t know where to start. I will say this: Your sad attempt to analyze my life through HN is hilarious.

 

[CP87]

I had no intention for this thread to turn into a debate about the covid vaccine. The only reason I mentioned vaccine in my original post is because of this: 4 years later our government is still pushing and promoting everyone to get the covid vaccine vs promoting everyone to get healthy. That’s the point. They’d rather treat the symptom and not get to the root of the problem. Why is this? If our nation was healthy the reasonable conclusion would be the mortality rate would’ve been much lower. We know this yet our leaders are still promoting to treat the symptom (get vaccinated) vs promoting health. It was stated we don’t yet know the long term affects of covid. True, likewise we don’t yet know the long term affects of the vaccine. I would find it odd to not be cynical in regards to covid, the vaccine, and how it was all handled.

But everyone knows they need to be active and eat well, the government certainly is not discouraging that. In fact, they issue guidelines on a regular basis telling people how to achieve those goals!

https://health.gov/our-work/nutrition-physical-activity/dietary-guidelines

People are not unhealthy because the government discourages health-promoting practices; rather, they are unhealthy because the systems we have in place (profit-driven food systems, lack of environmental regulation, profit-driven healthcare system, lack of worker protections and mandated health-promoting regulations in the workplace, environments built for automobile transportation that discourage walking/biking, etc.) do not encourage good health. As @Westernhawk put it, the government doesn't say get a vaccine, don't be healthy. The government (CDC, specifically) says be as healthy as you can, and as part of that process, get a vaccine!

(as an aside, people who get regular flu vaccines have greatly reduced mortality compared to those that do not, but a lot of that is explained by the "healthy user effect", that is, the fact that people conscious of their own health tend to get regular vaccinations...if you control for the healthy user effect, regular flu vaccines are still a substantial positive, but not to the extent they first appear)

I am not really sure what people have in mind when they suggest the government should do more to promote health. It surely isn't from a messaging standpoint, because the government is already going lots of that. Perhaps they mean enacting legislation/executive actions to impact all of those systems we know to influence health, although I find that a lot of people who fit in the Venn diagram of: 1) not being big fans of vaccines, and 2) thinking the government should do more to promote health...are also not big fans of the government trying to do a lot to control/regulate our daily lives.

I am right there with you and @PCHawk in thinking that chronic health issues are a huge problem in our country, and it needs to be addressed. Figuring out what to do is another matter, but if enough people start pushing in this direction, hopefully progress will be made. But there are a lot of people making money off of poor health, so there will be lots of pushback no matter the solution (there I am, sounding like @PCHawk ).

 

[CP87]

It is a fantastic post. Most of his are, on all subjects. But it does leave out the part where everyone who does question things gets shunned from the medical community. That part is fact. The only question is, are they getting shunned because they're wrong and everyone knows it? Or are they getting shunned because they're right (or possibly right) and they want to make sure no one believes them or follows their path of asking questions? I'm not sure how the general public could ever confidently answer that question. That's why I don't say I know for sure what's going on (just like Kennedy doesn't say he knows what's going on). I'll never touch the covid vax until I'm old because covid is almost 100% no risk to me. But I'll take a polio shot without even asking because that's scary as F (from the fear mongering) maybe?) and the vax has been around forever so probably won't kill me in a week.

I am sorry if I come off like an asshole in this thread, I try to avoid doing so most of the time. I am getting discouraged by how much of the nihilism you are expressing (we can't know anything, everything is corrupt) that I see in the world. Maybe it is just people being more realistic than me, and perhaps I am a Polly Anna. I just don't think we have any hope of solving problems if we get too cynical/nihilistic.

To your point of Spanish Flu vs. COVID, you are correct. The Spanish Flu killed around 6% of the US population in a year during that epidemic. Life expectancy dropped by 12 years.

For COVID, the US lost about 1.5% of its population to that epidemic. This was enough to make it the 3rd leading killer in the US, but it was still way behind heart disease and cancer. People over 85 year were disproportionately affected.

I think if you talk to people working in ICUs during the height of the pandemic, they will tell you it was a very big deal. But not everyone was directly impacted (I think only 1 person I knew died from COVID, and he was 85+ and already in poor health).

COVID got real stupid, real fast with how it was treated politically (by both sides). And I totally get if anyone feels like they couldn't get a good read on the situation because of that. But as someone who has worked with those helping to formulate US health guidelines, and who works with biomedical researchers, I am very confident that the systems are not corrupt, and they are working in our best interests. They are not always right, but they are following the best practices to make the best recommendations at the time.

Peace out, Go Hawks!

 

[thedukeofearl]

But everyone knows they need to be active and eat well, the government certainly is not discouraging that. In fact, they issue guidelines on a regular basis telling people how to achieve those goals!

https://health.gov/our-work/nutrition-physical-activity/dietary-guidelines

People are not unhealthy because the government discourages health-promoting practices; rather, they are unhealthy because the systems we have in place (profit-driven food systems, lack of environmental regulation, profit-driven healthcare system, lack of worker protections and mandated health-promoting regulations in the workplace, environments built for automobile transportation that discourage walking/biking, etc.) do not encourage good health. As @Westernhawk put it, the government doesn't say get a vaccine, don't be healthy. The government (CDC, specifically) says be as healthy as you can, and as part of that process, get a vaccine!

(as an aside, people who get regular flu vaccines have greatly reduced mortality compared to those that do not, but a lot of that is explained by the "healthy user effect", that is, the fact that people conscious of their own health tend to get regular vaccinations...if you control for the healthy user effect, regular flu vaccines are still a substantial positive, but not to the extent they first appear)

I am not really sure what people have in mind when they suggest the government should do more to promote health. It surely isn't from a messaging standpoint, because the government is already going lots of that. Perhaps they mean enacting legislation/executive actions to impact all of those systems we know to influence health, although I find that a lot of people who fit in the Venn diagram of: 1) not being big fans of vaccines, and 2) thinking the government should do more to promote health...are also not big fans of the government trying to do a lot to control/regulate our daily lives.

I am right there with you and @PCHawk in thinking that chronic health issues are a huge problem in our country, and it needs to be addressed. Figuring out what to do is another matter, but if enough people start pushing in this direction, hopefully progress will be made. But there are a lot of people making money off of poor health, so there will be lots of pushback no matter the solution (there I am, sounding like @PCHawk ).

I have been around for a long time, good times been following the Hawks since 1956
when we moved to Des Moines from Philadelphia

Never smoked tobacco, not even one cigarette

Have carefully watched my diet forever

Just had a physical at Mercy Clinic and everything is Fine

My doctor recommended another Flu Shot and the Covid Booster

Said it couldn't hurt at all and just might prevent me from acquiring the Flu or Covid, and if I
did encounter it, although rather unlikely, it would probably be Mild

I have decided to follow my longtime doctor's recommendations

He has never steered me the wrong way ever

Low Blood Pressure and Low Cholesterol forever

I feel blessed

 

[PCHawk]

But everyone knows they need to be active and eat well, the government certainly is not discouraging that. In fact, they issue guidelines on a regular basis telling people how to achieve those goals!

https://health.gov/our-work/nutrition-physical-activity/dietary-guidelines

People are not unhealthy because the government discourages health-promoting practices; rather, they are unhealthy because the systems we have in place (profit-driven food systems, lack of environmental regulation, profit-driven healthcare system, lack of worker protections and mandated health-promoting regulations in the workplace, environments built for automobile transportation that discourage walking/biking, etc.) do not encourage good health. As @Westernhawk put it, the government doesn't say get a vaccine, don't be healthy. The government (CDC, specifically) says be as healthy as you can, and as part of that process, get a vaccine!

(as an aside, people who get regular flu vaccines have greatly reduced mortality compared to those that do not, but a lot of that is explained by the "healthy user effect", that is, the fact that people conscious of their own health tend to get regular vaccinations...if you control for the healthy user effect, regular flu vaccines are still a substantial positive, but not to the extent they first appear)

I am not really sure what people have in mind when they suggest the government should do more to promote health. It surely isn't from a messaging standpoint, because the government is already going lots of that. Perhaps they mean enacting legislation/executive actions to impact all of those systems we know to influence health, although I find that a lot of people who fit in the Venn diagram of: 1) not being big fans of vaccines, and 2) thinking the government should do more to promote health...are also not big fans of the government trying to do a lot to control/regulate our daily lives.

I am right there with you and @PCHawk in thinking that chronic health issues are a huge problem in our country, and it needs to be addressed. Figuring out what to do is another matter, but if enough people start pushing in this direction, hopefully progress will be made. But there are a lot of people making money off of poor health, so there will be lots of pushback no matter the solution (there I am, sounding like @PCHawk ).

Your last sentence makes me think you believe there is a global cabal pulling the strings!

 

[PCHawk]

I am sorry if I come off like an asshole in this thread, I try to avoid doing so most of the time. I am getting discouraged by how much of the nihilism you are expressing (we can't know anything, everything is corrupt) that I see in the world. Maybe it is just people being more realistic than me, and perhaps I am a Polly Anna. I just don't think we have any hope of solving problems if we get too cynical/nihilistic.

To your point of Spanish Flu vs. COVID, you are correct. The Spanish Flu killed around 6% of the US population in a year during that epidemic. Life expectancy dropped by 12 years.

For COVID, the US lost about 1.5% of its population to that epidemic. This was enough to make it the 3rd leading killer in the US, but it was still way behind heart disease and cancer. People over 85 year were disproportionately affected.

I think if you talk to people working in ICUs during the height of the pandemic, they will tell you it was a very big deal. But not everyone was directly impacted (I think only 1 person I knew died from COVID, and he was 85+ and already in poor health).

COVID got real stupid, real fast with how it was treated politically (by both sides). And I totally get if anyone feels like they couldn't get a good read on the situation because of that. But as someone who has worked with those helping to formulate US health guidelines, and who works with biomedical researchers, I am very confident that the systems are not corrupt, and they are working in our best interests. They are not always right, but they are following the best practices to make the best recommendations at the time.

Peace out, Go Hawks!

You only came off a little like an asshole which is way better than most! Honestly tho cramming thoughts into posts when you have to worry about tldr probably makes people come off more extreme than they really are. I definitely have a touch of nihilism (I'm glad you described what it meant to save me time googling it) but trying to make points in my posts certainly exaggerates the extent of it.

No hard feelings on my end at all. I just love hearing opinions of people who think different than me to see if there are parts I'm missing. Especially from someone who thinks so similar to me on other things. It's so fascinating how little bits of evidence here and there can push two people in different directions to the point where they are both convinced their opposite end of the spectrum thoughts are correct. Everyone needs to do a better job of realizing most people aren't idiots. They just have millions of different life experiences that have slowly led them to their beliefs they have now. I thought a lot differently 5 years ago than I think now and I'll probably think differently in 5 more years. The optimist in my thinks it's because I'm willing to listen to other opinions and it helps me shape mine. The pessimist in my thinks maybe you're right and I'm just easily fooled.

 

[CP87]

Everyone needs to do a better job of realizing most people aren't idiots. They just have millions of different life experiences that have slowly led them to their beliefs they have now. I thought a lot differently 5 years ago than I think now and I'll probably think differently in 5 more years.

I like that bit, and I just hope we can all add to that a bit of humility to recognize that none of us knows everything, and we all have lots to learn.

 

[Grady]

Interesting topic. I have a couple of thoughts:

1. Vaccines (in general) and healthy life choices, like a good diet and exercise, are not opposite issues. You can do both, as they are both preventive measures.
2. Our life expectancy (particularly white males) is decreasing due to diet, stress, alcohol, drugs, depression, and a lack of decent preventive health care.
3. I'm concerned that the conspiracy theorists have deemed "vaccines" as one broad category. You may feel that Covid boosters are unnecessary, and that's just fine. However, to lump them in with Measles and Mumps vaccines is dangerous, and very poorly informed. Vaccines are generally incredibly safe and life saving over the generations. Millions of lives have been saved by vaccines over the years.

I'm sure you guys have noticed this, but everything has become "all one way or another way" in our country. You either have to be "pro or anti" on any given issue. We've somehow lost the ability to see any shades of gray or see context. Aren't you all getting tired of this as well?

This. Well said.
If there was no danger in giving young infants multiple vaccines, there wouldn't be waivers that parents have to sign prior to the infant receiving the dose...and there are waivers that need to be signed, because there are potential side effects. Rare, but possible.
With both our sons, we realized the importance of them getting the MMR and other vaccines -- for public health as well as their own -- but we just spread them out over a little longer time period. Seemed logical to us, and worked well. And never got any push back from our Dr. or anyone...but this was back in the late '80s and early '90s, before vaccines became a political cause.
Not everything has to be black and white.

 

[SCHawkeye2]

I'm pretty sure his point is the people that do the studies set them up to pass because they are the ones making money when they do pass the studies. Have you listened to the Rogan podcast? I know everyone's brain works different but pretty much everyone who sides with him now says they used to think he was a nut before they listened to him. If you've listened to long interviews with him and still have that opinion, it's completely understandable. But if you've only heard clips of him talking and read articles about things he's said, I'm betting you have a completely different opinion of him than you would if you heard him explain his point in Ling interview form.

I'm not a huge believer in medicine. I think a lot of them are designee to keep you taking them. That said, if I end up with cancer, a doctor is the first place I'll go. I'll also do a bunch of other shit too tho. I think it's a mistake to rely 100% on one thing.

Do you have any idea how many millions of lives have been saved by vaccines for:
Smallpox
Polio
Measles
Diptheria
Whooping cough
Pneumonia
HPV
Seasonal Flu
Just to name a few?
And yes….Covid.
If Joe Rogan is your medical advisor, you have a fool for a doctor.

 

[PCHawk]

Do you have any idea how many millions of lives have been saved by vaccines for:
Smallpox
Polio
Measles
Diptheria
Whooping cough
Pneumonia
HPV
Seasonal Flu
Just to name a few?
And yes….Covid.
If Joe Rogan is your medical advisor, you have a fool for a doctor.

I dont have any idea but I have a pretty good guess and that's why I'm pro vaccine (except the covid one). But I also have no idea how many lives vaccines have ruined or ended. And that's probably a good thing because if I did, it's possible I would stop being pro vaccine even if it did more overall good than bad.

Of course, that raises another issue. If telling the truth about vaccine injuries makes people skeptical to take a product that is a net positive for the population, then they really have no choice but to hide the negative. It would be too important not to. I'm not sure how anyone could disagree with that line of thinking. Especially post covid where they admit to lying.

When you know they need to hide the negative outcomes of vaccines for the greater good, and you know how much profit there is in them, it's not a stretch to think it's possible they do more damage than they let on. Because again, they would HAVE TO LIE TO US IF THEY DID. Then when you factor in rhat the numbers for autism raising substantially lines up with vaccine rollout, of course people are going to question the connection.

My son is in a class with about 100 people and has 3 autistic kids in it. That's an insane number. But it's without a doubt better than Polio running rampant. So I'm on board with vaccines being a net positive. But I'm also glad as hell I didn't hear all of that before I vaxed my kids. And I thank my lucky stars that they either dodged the bullets or there really is no connection at all. Because it could be either of the two.

Also if you're going to continue to use that Rogan line, you should really change it to "if Joe Rogan's guests that are experts in the medical field are your advisor, you have fools for doctors". Because listening to Rogan's opinions on anything isn't how the Joe Rogan podcast works. People listen to his podcasts because they're interested in the topic the guest brings to the table.i assume you already knew that, bit maybe not.

 

[Glass1/2fullguy]

But everyone knows they need to be active and eat well, the government certainly is not discouraging that. In fact, they issue guidelines on a regular basis telling people how to achieve those goals!

https://health.gov/our-work/nutrition-physical-activity/dietary-guidelines

People are not unhealthy because the government discourages health-promoting practices; rather, they are unhealthy because the systems we have in place (profit-driven food systems, lack of environmental regulation, profit-driven healthcare system, lack of worker protections and mandated health-promoting regulations in the workplace, environments built for automobile transportation that discourage walking/biking, etc.) do not encourage good health. As @Westernhawk put it, the government doesn't say get a vaccine, don't be healthy. The government (CDC, specifically) says be as healthy as you can, and as part of that process, get a vaccine!

(as an aside, people who get regular flu vaccines have greatly reduced mortality compared to those that do not, but a lot of that is explained by the "healthy user effect", that is, the fact that people conscious of their own health tend to get regular vaccinations...if you control for the healthy user effect, regular flu vaccines are still a substantial positive, but not to the extent they first appear)

I am not really sure what people have in mind when they suggest the government should do more to promote health. It surely isn't from a messaging standpoint, because the government is already going lots of that. Perhaps they mean enacting legislation/executive actions to impact all of those systems we know to influence health, although I find that a lot of people who fit in the Venn diagram of: 1) not being big fans of vaccines, and 2) thinking the government should do more to promote health...are also not big fans of the government trying to do a lot to control/regulate our daily lives.

I am right there with you and @PCHawk in thinking that chronic health issues are a huge problem in our country, and it needs to be addressed. Figuring out what to do is another matter, but if enough people start pushing in this direction, hopefully progress will be made. But there are a lot of people making money off of poor health, so there will be lots of pushback no matter the solution (there I am, sounding like @PCHawk ).

This is an extremely interesting listen and gets to the heart of the issue behind my original post.

https://tuckercarlson.com/tucker-show-casey-calley-means

 

[HuckFinn]

I would not listen to liar TC on salary…

 

[Glass1/2fullguy]

I would not listen to liar TC on salary…

I get why you would not want to listen based solely on the interviewer. Tucker, like Joe Rogan is polarizing and tucker is for sure on the opposite political spectrum as you. That said Tucker asks the questions in this interview. He actually does very little of the talking. He leaves that up to the medical expert he’s interviewing. The thing tucker does which I can appreciate is he’s willing to interview people and ask questions that might challenge the status quo. This country has a major problem w/ the health of our people. If we can agree w/ that sentiment then I challenge any medical professional to listen and allow themselves to be challenged by someone who speaks on their level of intellect.

 

[PCHawk]

I get why you would not want to listen based solely on the interviewer. Tucker, like Joe Rogan is polarizing and tucker is for sure on the opposite political spectrum as you. That said Tucker asks the questions in this interview. He actually does very little of the talking. He leaves that up to the medical expert he’s interviewing. The thing tucker does which I can appreciate is he’s willing to interview people and ask questions that might challenge the status quo. This country has a major problem w/ the health of our people. If we can agree w/ that sentiment then I challenge any medical professional to listen and allow themselves to be challenged by someone who speaks on their level of intellect.

Would you ever say "I'd never listen to that guy"? I feel like mostly left leaning people say that, but maybe I'm wrong. I personally enjoy listening to people on "the other side". Rogan had Bernie Sanders on years ago and he sounded very down to earth. Even tho I'm of the opinion that a lot of his policies wouldn't work, the way he described them made a lot of sense and I could see how people really liked him. Had I not listened to that, my major opinion of him would be from people on the right who make him sound like a complete nut job. Of course since then the democratic party did him dirty just like they did Biden, Gabberd, and Kennedy.

 

[HuckFinn]

Would you ever say "I'd never listen to that guy"? I feel like mostly left leaning people say that, but maybe I'm wrong. I personally enjoy listening to people on "the other side". Rogan had Bernie Sanders on years ago and he sounded very down to earth. Even tho I'm of the opinion that a lot of his policies wouldn't work, the way he described them made a lot of sense and I could see how people really liked him. Had I not listened to that, my major opinion of him would be from people on the right who make him sound like a complete nut job. Of course since then the democratic party did him dirty just like they did Biden, Gabberd, and Kennedy.

I do not waste my time listening to blatant liars. At some point, you make a decision based on what someone says. Carlson and Hannity are not news guys. They are proven attention seekers spewing garbage. So it is with Fox “News”. The legal system has been clear, fining them billions of $$. They lost my trust. End of story.