I understand the point very well. I can only say I didn't take what he wrote that way so many different ways.... You think it's impossible to criticize the recruiting of the staff and not the individuals at the same time. If that was his intent and I don't know if it is or isn't then he's free to think that way and have those of you that don't like it to go after him for it. My comprehension of it and being able to separate the two lines of thinking is pretty simple to do.
TE Nate Vejvoda commits.
- Thread starter Montanahawk
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I understand the point very well. I can only say I didn't take what he wrote that way so many different ways.... You think it's impossible to criticize the recruiting of the staff and not the individuals at the same time. If that was his intent and I don't know if it is or isn't then he's free to think that way and have those of you that don't like it to go after him for it. My comprehension of it and being able to separate the two lines of thinking is pretty simple to do.
Its one thing to be critical and point out we don't get many big time recruits. That is a fact. But to say he doesn't work hard at it. Is mostly a guess. A opinion at best. I think KF looks at guys who will fit system as much as anything. But to think he wont work hard to get the best athleats. Just not buying it
How does one know how hard someone is working without knowing all the facts? Do you know how many hours he spends recruiting signing letters, calling, doing homework on them? I for one am tickled pink that Ferentz has little if any Zooker in him... Alot of the players Zook got were not exactly the cream of the crop character wise or good football players for that matter... I don't know Ross P any more then I know any of you. But I don't think Kirks lack of enthusiasm when it comes to recruiting is why he chose Bama over Iowa. I'm pretty sure Ross knew how much Ferentz and the entire staff wanted him. That was probably a 2 plus year recruitment of a kid that decided to go to Bama cause of the prestige of their program being where it is and he wasn't afraid to leave home. Would it have been great to get him? Sure woulda but with how this years class has shaped up I really don't think we'll miss him. Time will tell.
HawkIMalaise
Banned
That was my point. He'll be missed, but OL is one position we seem to do ok with. Kirk is probably a decent guy, he is not a closer. Don't think he has that in him genetically. Bottom line is you send Bielema(@Wisconsn) or Kirk in to close a recruit (similar schools, similar styles of ball) my money is on Biels to close the deal. Call it age difference, call whatever, I'm just telling you Kirk doesn't come across as a deal closer.
Nick Saban, is and has the total package. Loose recruiting and academic standards, casual morals with removing players for "injury"/over signing. Alabama's success before him was not that great before his arrival. He is a great in-game coach and obviously an elite recruiter.
I think Kirk would have made a good NFL coach. The recruiting aspect is eliminated and the league does what they can to eliminate talent disparities via the draft. This plays well into his strengths.
AdamHawk
Well-Known Member
In this instance, yes. It is impossible to open a thread about the commitment of a specific player and comment about how our commitments aren't good enough and take that any other way than as a slight of that specific player. As I've already pointed out, there is a time and place for discussing your perceived recruiting shortfalls and this thread is not that place.
If you want to take his comments and view them in a bubble and not consider the entire context then maybe I would agree with you. But when you factor in the topic of this thread, it's pretty obvious what he was eluding to.
deanvogs
Well-Known Member
If KF went to Alabama or Michigan he would get all 4* or 5* kids. If Saban was in Iowa City he would get 3* and have to develop them. Alabama and Michigan recruit themselves, it has nothing to do with "effort"
95% of recruiting is evaluating players. KF can't make any 2* player into an NFL player. He can see NFL talent and skills in players that nobody else sees. Over 15 years, you aren't getting "lucky" when you send 1 in 6 2* kids into the NFL and 3* kids at 3 times the rate of other average schools. KF is crushing all other coaches in this area. Nobody, and I mean nobody is doing this at a KF level. That is being elite, and it isn't "luck" and it isn't purely development skills. It is player evaluation at an elite level, because you don't get to the NFL without having NFL talent. That is why it amazes me when people b!tch and moan about 2* or 3* kids that KF signs. He track record proves the complainers to be idiots, time and time and time again.
HawkIMalaise
Banned
I promise you if Nick Saban and Kirk traded jobs right now there would be an uptick at Iowa in recruiting because of the Saban name, and there would be a drop off at Alabama.
If you are saying that Kirk isn't necessarily developing NFL talent he is finding NFL talent other miss, then why does he have abysmal record of sending 2 and 3 star QB's, RB's and WR's to the NFL? I'd wager he would be in the bottom 25% of Big 10 coaches with putting those 3 positions in the NFL. It isn't so much seeing undervalued talent otherwise my statement wouldn't be correct.
deanvogs
Well-Known Member
I promise you if Nick Saban started at Iowa as KF did, he wouldn't bring any better recruit. If KF was at Alabama he would get all 4* and 5* kids.
Lets look closer to your claim about KF and QB's. Right now according to ESPN Iowa is only behind Michigan, Mich. St., Purdue and Wisconsin for having QB's in the league. That puts them well above the bottom 25% in putting QB's in the NFL. Right now 7 B1G teams have more RB's in the NFL than Iowa. This puts Iowa once again easily outside of your bottom 25% claim. On your last claim about WR, you did get one out of 3 right. Keep in mind this is players in the NFL, and includes all coaches for all other B1G teams, like Michigan still has Tom Brady, even though he was pre Hoke and RichRod. All of Iowa's players in the NFL were KF kids both recruited and developed. Plus I'm not going to take the time to see what NFL players were 4* or 5* kids, thus excluding them for what you are talking about, so Iowa could potentially move up more.
But back to your point. So KF finds and develops OL, DL, LB, TE, DB's.......he does avg. or better with QB's and RB position (compared to other B!G teams), and you want to point to one single position group (WR) and say that is the true indicator, and not the outlier??? I'm sure you are still holding onto the whole Earth is flat theory as well, because that seems more reasonable that what you are shoveling here.
HawkIMalaise
Banned
If 7 big ten teams have RB in the NFL then about 4 teams have no representation. Your original point was he finds talent that is undervalued and not so much develops less talented players. This argument still holds no water in the skills position. I can't help the fact Indiana, Minnesota, Illinois, etc. have no QB's on NFL rosters. That has nothing to do with your argument he is finding genetic NFL talent others are missing.
Seems hard to get African American skill players to come to one of the least diverse campuses in the country. It doesn't help that most of these guys are from the sunbelt.
deanvogs
Well-Known Member
My point was he does BOTH. He isn't some magician that can just develop NFL player, if they don't have NFL talent. So not only does he develop talent (which is widely know, especially in NFL coaching circles), but he finds that NFL talent that others aren't seeing.
Plus the data proves you were wrong when you said he is in the bottom 25% of B1G coaches, not only that he isn't even the bottom 25% of B1G teams that span multiple coaches, so some that he was behind in the data I looked up, he isn't behind that specific coach there right now.
Beyond all that, my point isn't even the KF is infallible, we all knows he struggles with WR, and also has game management issues. Yet if you say he has failed with QB's as well, you just don't pay attention. Banks, Tate, Stanzi, and now Rudock and CJ. In the vast majority of years Iowa has gotten good play out of it's QB's. Same with RB, the only thing that has limited RB is well documented years of AIRBHG.
