+/- stat

[Foval21]

Some don't like this stat but I think it is very telling on how well your grouping in the time you were in played as a whole because it brings both offense and defense into the factors. For the Wisconsin game I really thought it might tell us some things.

Basabe (+1) - doesn't say much as he only played 1 min

Clemmons (+1) - again played very little

Gesell (+2) - this one struck me but his group was really good second half at +8 I thought he would have been better overall but he sat too much in the 2nd half.

Jok (0) - very little time

Marble (-1) - part of this is playing as much as he did in a loss. Some is that when he was at pg we were in the minus.

McCabe (+4) - this surprised me but it shows he wasn't as big of a problem as people made him out to be. While he was on the court we outs cored our opponents.

Oglesby (-10) - I was really surprised by this but then I thought about the fact that he was playing with marble at the pg and olaseni at c. Marble didn't play good defense and olaseni didn't either. So for all of Josh's points his groupings lost.

Olaseni (-10) - not surprised as kamisky seemed to work him over. In fact most teams with post players that are good gabe is minus against them.

Uthoff (-5) - little surprised but when he was in with gesell at pg he was plus.

White (-12) - this is both surprising and not as I think he has played poorly but he also typically plays with woody and gesell. But he played without them so he is minus.

Woody (+7) - not surprising. Thought he played great and should have played more.

 

[ibahawkeye]

Interesting... Most surprising to me was oglesby but I think h was in the game and guarding Koenig when he went off and late in the game yesterday when he was hitting shots we were still trading buckets.

Ok I changed my mind, McCabe being positive was the biggest surprise.

 

[Wassabbe]

Very interesting. Where do you get those stats?

 

[smhawk]

Yea a lot of so called experts think plus minus can be very misleading. Later I'll post some kenpom ratings

 

[uihawk82]

Yea a lot of so called experts think plus minus can be very misleading. Later I'll post some kenpom ratings

Some might think it misleading because the action of all five players are being totaled up while a player is in but hockey really lives by it along with turnovers also.

The Illinois or PSU game Gesell was +24 or something like that.

I really think if you look at +/- along with both teams shooting percentages during those times (granted that is a lot of stat keeping) I think you would see trends.

For instance that Koenig guy was in limited minutes but he was hot and so were all the wisky players so he was probably big time plus

 

[Foval21]

The stats come from statsheet.com

i think with +/- you have to focus on the groupings of players you are putting together.

i look for trends and I see that we go minus a lot when marble is playing pg. we are minus with gesell at pg too at times but with marble at pg it seems to be either feast or famine.

 

[Foval21]

Yea a lot of so called experts think plus minus can be very misleading. Later I'll post some kenpom ratings

Kenpom is against +/- if I remember correctly, but I think if used correctly it can be very telling.

love to see those stats though.

 

[HawkeyeMike23]

The stats come from statsheet.com

i think with +/- you have to focus on the groupings of players you are putting together.

i look for trends and I see that we go minus a lot when marble is playing pg. we are minus with gesell at pg too at times but with marble at pg it seems to be either feast or famine.

Not surprised by the fact that Marble has a lower +/- rating at point. The majority of his mins at point come with the bench unit of McCabe, Olaseni, JO and Uthoff. I'm not a huge fan of individual +/- rating but I do think there is value in +/- ratings for line ups once you have a large enough sample size. Unfortunately I'm not aware of any free sites that keep those stats.

 

[Foval21]

Not surprised by the fact that Marble has a lower +/- rating at point. The majority of his mins at point come with the bench unit of McCabe, Olaseni, JO and Uthoff. I'm not a huge fan of individual +/- rating but I do think there is value in +/- ratings for line ups once you have a large enough sample size. Unfortunately I'm not aware of any free sites that keep those stats.

Mccabe was in very little with marble at pg yesterday. Oglesby was in but oglesby gave us 17 pts. Olaseni is a guy many say is better than woody. So why did we get out scored with this grouping yesterday: marble, oglesby, Uthoff, white, olaseni? Because 3 of them are average defenders at best (of which 1 is non existent in half court offense), 1 is a black hole when playing pg and poor defensive pg, then there is the guy that played really well but was stuck with a flawed grouping. And that is on the coach not seeing how badly that group got worked over. Marble shouldn't play pg for more than 4-5 min a game and should play the 3 more. Uthoff is still developing and can't be relied on for long periods right now. White needs to play the 4 more and I expect that to happen. Olaseni needs less min and woody needs more.

 

[ibahawkeye]

Mccabe was in very little with marble at pg yesterday. Oglesby was in but oglesby gave us 17 pts. Olaseni is a guy many say is better than woody. So why did we get out scored with this grouping yesterday: marble, oglesby, Uthoff, white, olaseni? Because 3 of them are average defenders at best (of which 1 is non existent in half court offense), 1 is a black hole when playing pg and poor defensive pg, then there is the guy that played really well but was stuck with a flawed grouping. And that is on the coach not seeing how badly that group got worked over. Marble shouldn't play pg for more than 4-5 min a game and should play the 3 more. Uthoff is still developing and can't be relied on for long periods right now. White needs to play the 4 more and I expect that to happen. Olaseni needs less min and woody needs more.

Enjoy your posts Foval and think you bring good insight but I disagree with you on your assessment of Josh's defense.

Koenig went off with Josh guarding him yesterday and had a lot to do with his negative stat because he did no wrong on offense... That's for sure.

 

[Foval21]

Enjoy your posts Foval and think you bring good insight but I disagree with you on your assessment of Josh's defense.

Koenig went off with Josh guarding him yesterday and had a lot to do with his negative stat because he did no wrong on offense... That's for sure.

But even good defenders have poor games defensively. White consistently takes defensive plays off. Oglesby works on defense. Koenig had the game of his life and I wouldn't expect that again as he was sub 30 percent from 3 coming in. I don't think oglesby is the greatest defender alive but of that grouping he is the most consistent. Marble has the tools to be the best defender but not on pgs and he takes plays off on defense. Uthoff is more serviceable on defense than white but that doesn't take much. Olaseni is out of position a lot and got worked over when he was in. That is a very flawed grouping

 

[Clark]

I think +/- is a pretty bad stat to judge individual players by but it's a good stat to judge lineups provided there's a big enough sample

 

[HawkeyeMike23]

Mccabe was in very little with marble at pg yesterday. Oglesby was in but oglesby gave us 17 pts. Olaseni is a guy many say is better than woody. So why did we get out scored with this grouping yesterday: marble, oglesby, Uthoff, white, olaseni? Because 3 of them are average defenders at best (of which 1 is non existent in half court offense), 1 is a black hole when playing pg and poor defensive pg, then there is the guy that played really well but was stuck with a flawed grouping. And that is on the coach not seeing how badly that group got worked over. Marble shouldn't play pg for more than 4-5 min a game and should play the 3 more. Uthoff is still developing and can't be relied on for long periods right now. White needs to play the 4 more and I expect that to happen. Olaseni needs less min and woody needs more.

I wasn't talking about yesterday's game specifically but rather the season as a whole. Looking at individual +/- ratings for a single game and trying to draw conclusions from them is pretty much worthless.

 

[Foval21]

Enjoy your posts Foval and think you bring good insight but I disagree with you on your assessment of Josh's defense.

Koenig went off with Josh guarding him yesterday and had a lot to do with his negative stat because he did no wrong on offense... That's for sure.

I did some rough cross referencing and Koenig vs oglesby was about 8 pts for Wisconsin. Yet oglesby out scored him by 5 pts. So I would say it might fall on the guys around them. They were in pretty much the same times missing out a couple min so we could say jo maybe didn't out score him but I'd say they were probably even up when on each other.

 

[glidinghawk]

But even good defenders have poor games defensively. White consistently takes defensive plays off. Oglesby works on defense. Koenig had the game of his life and I wouldn't expect that again as he was sub 30 percent from 3 coming in. I don't think oglesby is the greatest defender alive but of that grouping he is the most consistent. Marble has the tools to be the best defender but not on pgs and he takes plays off on defense. Uthoff is more serviceable on defense than white but that doesn't take much. Olaseni is out of position a lot and got worked over when he was in. That is a very flawed grouping

The 5 best defenders for Iowa are Marble, Gesell, White, Woodbury, and Basabe.

I guess that's why they start.

 

[Foval21]

I wasn't talking about yesterday's game specifically but rather the season as a whole. Looking at individual +/- ratings for a single game and trying to draw conclusions from them is pretty much worthless.

Some think you can say that about any stat. But it just takes the proper cross referencing and understanding of how the stats work to be able to use smaller samples along with bigger ones.

 

[Foval21]

The 5 best defenders for Iowa are Marble, Gesell, White, Woodbury, and Basabe.

I guess that's why they start.

You got 4 of the five right. White isn't as good defensively as Uthoff, clemmons or oglesby. 2 of those guys can't play the 3 spot but you could play marble at the 3 to make it work.

 

[HawkeyeMike23]

Some think you can say that about any stat. But it just takes the proper cross referencing and understanding of how the stats work to be able to use smaller samples along with bigger ones.

You're getting down to 30-90 second sample sizes at that point. You aren't going to be pulling much reliable data at that point.

 

[glidinghawk]

You got 4 of the five right. White isn't as good defensively as Uthoff, clemmons or oglesby. 2 of those guys can't play the 3 spot but you could play marble at the 3 to make it work.

I'm wondering why Sapp is getting more minutes. I know he made some turnovers early in the conference schedule that irked McCaffery and his shooting is not where it was last year, but I think he should be getting at least 10 to 12 minutes a game. That way, he can get into some kind of flow and stay as game-sharp as possible for the March run. His three point shooting percentage is good and he has a nice assist to tunover ratio. His defense has always been his strong suit. Wondering if he is having bad practices and/or is injured slightly.

 

[glidinghawk]

You got 4 of the five right. White isn't as good defensively as Uthoff, clemmons or oglesby. 2 of those guys can't play the 3 spot but you could play marble at the 3 to make it work.

White is third on the team in steals, and he is the #1 rebounder on the club. Rebounding is a defensive stat.

I rest my case.