Soldier Salute Recap, Reaction
- Thread starter RobHowe
- Start date
Fryowa
Administrator
Brands is playing daddy ball at 74 and he shouldn’t be. Arnold should be at 74 this year and Ferrari at 84. Gabe would destroy Brands and Kennedy. Still doesn’t keep both wrestlers next year but it’s the best thing to do right now.
There’s zero chance Arnold and Ferrari are still both on this team if that keeps up because neither one is going to sit the year with NIL out there. I’m hearing lots of chatter about Arnold going to OSU, which is obviously just chatter at this point. But no way they both stay here.
Either way Iowa’s is still just fighting for distant 2nd in B1G and distant 2nd at nationals with 5-6 other teams and it’s hard to get excited about wrestling anymore. I’ve pretty well checked out other than casual watching because if there’s no chance to win it all what’s the point? Just like it would’ve been for other teams when Gable was coaching. I never thought in a million years anyone would’ve outdone what Gable did but here we are. Sanderson is going to blow the doors off his records and it wouldn’t be so bad if he didn’t do it with boring 3-2 stall-fest matches.
Been a huge wrestling fan for 40 years and I’ll say it again, folkstyle wrestling in 2024 sucks ass and it’s unwatchable. Until they get rid of riding time and add a push out rule like freestyle I don’t think I can ever get back on board with it. It’s a terrible product. At least Gable had a fun, aggressive style to watch but Sanderson’s philosophy is to get a 1 point lead, ride guys for 1 more point, then play tag running around the mat for the last 2:00 taking stall warnings until time runs out.
Nope. You can have it. It’ll just keep watching international FS on Flo which is actual good wrestling, while everyone in the US keeps watching this boring ass folk and wondering why our country can’t compete at Worlds and the Olympics.
I think they should have a rule where if you are a head coach, or even a coach in that sport you can not recruit sons and or daughters, it does mess with your judgement. Its kind of like gambling.
Also didn't Zalesky coach the Hawkeyes for nine years got three first place, took forth in 2006 and get fired? How many has Brands got? I like TNT by the way, but alot of these kids are coming out of Christian Schools and TNT just dont seem to fit in when it comes to that.
Also didn't Zalesky coach the Hawkeyes for nine years got three first place, took forth in 2006 and get fired? How many has Brands got? I like TNT by the way, but alot of these kids are coming out of Christian Schools and TNT just dont seem to fit in when it comes to that.
#1DieHardHawk
Well-Known Member
Arnold leaving would be a major blow to the program, both talent-wise and from a perception standpoint. I really hope the rumors aren't based in reality, and, yes, IMO he should be our 74.
If he's physically more comfortable at 84 I don't necessarily see that as a negative. Ferrari has the frame to potentially move to 97 next year (If he sticks around. Who knows with that family...). Either way, it is criminal not to have both in the lineup.
I'll be curious to see if Aiden Valencia at Stanford enters the portal after this season. His sister already is here, and he would easily slide into 41 for us. He's a hell of a wrestler and I wouldn't be shocked to see him on the podium at nationals.
As for folkstyle, I agree that changes need to be made. I actually like a hard ride but there needs to be a quicker time limit until stand-up and a trigger to go on the clock if not engaging with a lead. I can't say I'm a huge fan of the way freestyle is set-up, though. Personally, I'd like to see some kind of hybrid of the two.
#1DieHardHawk
Well-Known Member
I think completely getting rid of riding time is one of the first changes I would make.
Put the top guy on a clock immediately, but I would make it a little longer than FS. No turn after, say, 40 sec, and back to stand-up.
Also, reward early escapes, such as before 15 sec, with 2 points instead of one.
Fryowa
Administrator
Folkstyle is just stupid though the way it’s setup now.
Sanderson has cracked the code which is to get a one point lead, riding time point, then stall with no fear of giving up a stalling point at the end. It’s ridiculous.
Nothing will fix that strategy until you completely get rid of riding time, add a push out rule, and a shot clock to eliminate stalling. i.e. freestyle. The 3 point TD rule only exacerbated the problem rather than fixing it because (due to stalling still being allowed a warning rather than going to a shot clock like FS) it made guys more defensive and chicken shit to get taken down.
It’s what literally everyone else in the world trains in, it’s 100% offensive, exciting, fast-paced wrestling, and the US will be at the bottom of the international food chain until we stop messing with this obsolete and boring style.
All you need to do is phase it in over 5 or 6 years. See a date and say as of XYZ calendar year the NCAA will only sanction freestyle. High schools, youth clubs, etc can do whatever they want; the better teams will make the transition. At the top levels of collegiate wrestling the staffs are all well-versed already anyway because the best wrestlers and coaches have competed in both. Also nowadays kids are being trained in both, all the youth wrestlers in the country who take the sport even remotely serious are wrestling folk in school during the winter and freestyle on weekends and off seasons anyway. Why make kids do both, especially when one is boring as hell and watered down by the modern ride & stall strategy that’s taken over the sport?
Everyone wants all these little incremental rule tweaks that don’t do shit to fix the problem because they’re either sentimental and don’t want to admit the sport is dying, or they simply don’t understand freestyle wrestling. Welp…the garbage product you’re getting now (viewership and attendance are down across the board) is what’s going to continue until they finally bite the bullet and ditch folk for good.
#1DieHardHawk
Well-Known Member
Agree for the most part. Everyone is going to have their individual preferences in terms of rules.
Personally, I find freestyle to be a little hectic with the current format. Standups occur way too quickly, and, if you are going to have a push-out rule, get rid of the incentive to drop to a knee. It doesn't make sense.
I'd get rid of the push-out in favor of the folkstyle penalty for fleeing/backing up. Shoving an opponent over a line isn't a wrestling move, IMO, but there should be a penalty for actively avoiding engaging.
Instead of the official deciding when the mat action has stalled, start a clock at the takedown. If the wrestler is on top for, say, 40 seconds, and is unable to turn, then stand them up. There's skill involved turning your opponent and freestyle doesn't allow for it. Adding extra points for quick escapes also incentivizes mat action.
Lastly, freestyle needs some type of sudden death OT. Don't go immediately to criteria. Let the wrestlers decide the match.
I will add that as bad as folkstyle has become, I personally still prefer it way over Greco Roman. I wouldn't shed a tear if GR was eliminated.
I like the riding time, but Like i said after 25 seconds get them back on their feet, keep the riding time at one min. and you get your one point.
It is wrestling after all. They have come a long way with the sport. Look at some of the 1950 films.
Freestyle you roll the guy five times and the match is over. You get put in a time clock to take the other guy down if you dont you get penalize.
That messes with your judgment, and people have different styles, which is not fare to punish one style and award another.
If the guy is running around the circle thats stalling, or backing up out of the circle thats stalling but getting forced out that could either way.
You may not like folkstyle wrestling because we are not number one anymore. But it is way better then it used to be.
I like having three different types of wrestling. If I was to get rid of one it would be Greco.
It is wrestling after all. They have come a long way with the sport. Look at some of the 1950 films.
Freestyle you roll the guy five times and the match is over. You get put in a time clock to take the other guy down if you dont you get penalize.
That messes with your judgment, and people have different styles, which is not fare to punish one style and award another.
If the guy is running around the circle thats stalling, or backing up out of the circle thats stalling but getting forced out that could either way.
You may not like folkstyle wrestling because we are not number one anymore. But it is way better then it used to be.
I like having three different types of wrestling. If I was to get rid of one it would be Greco.
Fryowa
Administrator
There is, it’s called stalling and it never gets called. It’s also 100% a judgement call and differs from ref to ref.
Also, have you ever noticed how refs are very quick to call it late in the 3rd period when guys still have warmings left but they know it won’t affect the outcome? That’s exactly the formula Carl Sanderson uses on purpose. His guys LITERALLY run around the mat laughing with 25 seconds to go at the end because they know they have a warning to burn and they won’t get a penalty point.
It shouldn’t get called differently depending on the situation but it does.
Take it out of the ref’s hands and use a pushout rule and shot clock.
Of course, but if you’ve watched wrestling for the last 15 years you know it doesn’t get called.
Put an emphasis on the role and “make” refs call it? Still a hugely interpretative call, called wildly differently depending on the ref. Take it out of their hands with a super effective rule like they’ve done in FS…pushout and shot clock. Problem solved.
#1DieHardHawk
Well-Known Member
Yeah, the subjectivity is frustrating but it's hard to eliminate it. Push-outs aren't a great alternative, IMO, though. First of all, it's not really wrestling, and, second, seeing a wrestler running around trying to push out his opponent to tie a match is kind of pathetic.
I'd be okay with freestyle if they would simply let the top guy work for a reasonable amount of time. I just don't care for the quick stand-ups. A shot-clock there would be a great addition.
As far as Cael, that was basically his practice as a wrestler too. He was rarely dominant in matches but may have been the best defensive wrestler ever. He would methodically get a lead, then play defense. If his opponent got impatient, he would take advantage and get a fall.
His wrestlers will stall at the end of matches (often arrogantly), but they also tend to be very aggressive early and stack points. His results speak for themselves. He knows how to identify talent and maximize it. Have to tip your hat.
Fryowa
Administrator
If you really pay attention though, it’s only against completely out-matched wrestlers they get out aggressive. Any time they’re up against anybody with even a faint pulse it’s the “get a 1 point lead, ride, and stall” game. That’s when wrestling should be exciting, i.e. tournament time. I don’t want to watch what folkstyle has turned into.
I don’t say all this as a casual fan. I used to watch every single big ten match—Hawkeyes or not—in its entirety (the only conference that really televises) and for years I’d make it to 75% of our home meets from 5 1/2 hours away. Still have my season tickets but haven’t gone in two years now. I am old enough to remember watching the Hawkeyes on IPTV and have a lot of fond memories of that, and my family is on a first name basis with Bonnie, Tom, and Terry. I love Hawkeye wrestling, just hate what collegiate wrestling is now.
Folkstyle has turned into unwatchable, boring crap. It resembles nothing like what Alger, T&T, Barry Davis, Kevin Dresser, Heffernan, McIlravy, Kistler, Penrith, etc. displayed back in the day. Even the teams in the 2000s were better than this game of tag they play now. It is what it is, and I’ve made my peace with it. Now other than the Hawkeyes I only watch freestyle. It’s better wrestling, way better officiated, and it’s relevant internationally where the best wrestlers are anyway. The only thing that sucks is paying for it.
#1DieHardHawk
Well-Known Member
While I don't find it "unwatchable," I agree that something needs to change. I would be just fine with a complete conversion to freestyle, but, again, I'd like to see some tweaks to allow for more ground game.
As for PSU, we'll have to agree to disagree somewhat there. Cael's had many that were pretty damn aggressive and up-tempo over the years. He's also had his fair share of late stallers, most recently RBY, who loved to get a couple of takedowns, then dance for the last period. It made it all the more satisfying when Arujau kicked his ass in the finals.
I was glad to see Royce Alger at the beginning of your list. Whenever I have conversations with people about the glory days of Iowa wrestling and what brought me in more as a fan, I mention Alger as the guy who piqued my interest. He was the epitome. For him, it wasn't just competition. He went out there every time with the intention of beating people up.
Fryowa
Administrator
I think where that becomes apparent is when PSU guys are wrestling bottom-shelf competition. When they're up against a non-wrestling school you're totally right.
But where you see his brand of boring, excruciating to watch wrestling is against schools like Iowa, Okie State, nebraska, etc. in the conference tourneys/nationals. That's where it comes out and it shouldn't be encouraged to game the points system. That's what needs to change. A guy like RBY will walk in and tech a kid from Indiana, but when there's marbles at stake against a good ranked wrestler we see the dumb cat and mouse game. With freestyle, you aren't allowed any of that and guys like RBY get outed for what they really are. He's a good controlling wrestler so you see him hold a guy on the mat for 5 minutes total with half-hearted tilt attempts and then just run around the last minute of the match to win it.
Jordan Burroughs wrote a great commentary 9 years ago already about why the US should convert to FS and it's worth a read because it shows how it would benefit everything for the Americans, not just stop the cat and mouse crap.
As far as Folkstyle being a "control" game, that has its merits, but I would counter that FS is a control game as well. By taking your opponent to the mat you're controlling him/her. By exposing his/her back to the mat you're controlling your opponent. It's just different control. If you don't want to get leg laced and rolled, don't put yourself in a position to get leg laced. I would also argue that you don't very often see gator rolls unless you have seriously outmatched opponents who would end up getting teched anyways. If I'm watching a match where a guy is clearly outmatched, I'd rather see it end quickly with 4 rolls and get it done with than see 3 periods of someone keeping them on the ground without really making a good attempt at tilting.
I always ask myself this...is it more boring to watch a folk match with a guy on bottom trying to squirm his way out of bounds only to get put back to the down position at the center over and over, or is it more fun to see a guy get slammed on a double and rolled 4 times (which really doesn't happen all that often...)?
Fryowa
Administrator
Go to youtube and search "Royce Alger high school champion interview." You won't be disappointed
The guy was absolutely hardcore from the very beginning.
