thejumper5
Well-Known Member
For a fifth round pick. Wow. The Jets are having a great off-season. If they draft anywhere nearly as well as they did last year, they will be the Super Bowl favorites in my mind. Thoughts?
Santonio Holmes to the Jets
- Thread starter thejumper5
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Mac50702
Well-Known Member
Wait you give up your superbowl hero for a fifth round pick? Rex has to be loving this. So now they have Edwards, Keller, Holmes, Washington, and Greene at their disposal plus one of the best D's in the league. They Definitely have to be a favorite to win their division.
I am a die-hard Steeler. I am not surprised that they cut ways with Holmes, with his second incident (#1--mary jane posession and #2--accused of assault). The Rooney family typically will not stand for that type of behavior, see Plaxico Burress. I am surprised that they traded for only a 5th round draft choice. Would have thought that they could have gotten more than that, but maybe his price tag was drawn down due to his troubles.
Now.......how will the Rooney family do the PR? They dump the WR that had trouble, but their star QB, who is also going through round #2 of sexual assault accusations, is still on the team. Not sure how they will spin that one!
Now.......how will the Rooney family do the PR? They dump the WR that had trouble, but their star QB, who is also going through round #2 of sexual assault accusations, is still on the team. Not sure how they will spin that one!
HerkyDog
Well-Known Member
Dude, I hope you're kidding. Alright, I may be biased because I'm a Colts fan/season ticket holder (easy... blood pressure...). But, if there is a team with Hawkeye tracks all over it, it's the Colts.
Head Coach- Ex Hawk
Defensive coordinator- Ex Hawk
Tom Moore- Ex Hawk
3 (for now) ex-Hawks in lineup (2 Pro bowlers).
Entire offensive and defensive schemes have direct lineage to Iowa schemes (for better or worse).
Also, if you check your Vegas odds... Colts are favorite to win 2011 Super Bowl, not that it means anything, believe me, and save your taunts about the Super Bowl, it stil hurts. But remember who didn't let your Jets in last year.
I love Greene, believe me. Wish he were with the Colts, but adding Holmes does not in any way make the Jets the favorite to come out of the AFC, or even your own division.
I lived in NYC for 4 years, and have many friends who are Jets fans. There is no anymosity here, but really, just check up a bit here on the the whole "we are the Hawkeyes of the NFL thing".
WDMBleacherHawk
Well-Known Member
Why didnt the chiefs do This? DAMN
woodyk1
Well-Known Member
Agreed that it will be a discussion between Holmes and Big Ben, but Holmes also has a domestic violence incident in 2006 that was dismissed and will be (most likely) suspended for the first 4 games of the season for violating the league's substance abuse policy. So, it is more than 2 incidents.
I do agree the spin cycle on this one will be interesting to watch.
It will also be interesting to see how the Jets will do while acquiring players with issues (Braylon Edwards, Cromartie, and now Holmes). Will the fans be happy with the win at all costs mentality? I bet they will, but we will be hearing about these player's and their stories too.
I just heard about the 4 game suspension. I would guess that this was the straw that broke the camel's back with the Rooney family. Now that it has been made official that Big Ben will not face charges, it will be interesting to see if the Steelers or the league do something with him.
I personally think that the Steelers should make a rule that NO ONE is allowed in Night Club VIP rooms!!!
Calm down dude, i know where the most hawks are on one team, i am a colts fan as well, but their style of play is not like iowa's re-read my post then think before you answer a second time, do the jets remind you of style of play at iowa since 1998 or do the colts. I.E. the way both teams have great d, the pro style offense iowa runs, with the i formation. Do the colts look anything like the hawks? Nowhere in my post did i say the most iowa players play on the jets nor did I say the coach had iowa ties. Now try that again.
HerkyDog
Well-Known Member
First of all Ihawks61. That is one of the most condescending posts in response to mine, I have ever seen.
So, while my puny little brain will struggle to grasp the enormity of your challenge, I will tell you why the Colts and the Hawks, scheme wise, are similar.
Offense-
Both the Colts and Hawks employ zone blocking schemes for the run game. The Jets, to their credit employ traditional matchup and overbalance schemes. Now, the Jets get Iowa like results, their line is more talented in match ups (and much bigger), and to the Colts credit, it seems organizationally, they are addressing this problem by shedding smaller lineman, as they are starting the process of employing bigger, nastier, more talented linemen. Also the way the Hawks and Colts make use of their Tight Ends is very similar. Two tight ends are common for both teams, and both teams allow one tight end to slide into h-back position (Dallas has even stood up, ala Iowa, but hasn't done it for awhile). On the wide reciever front, both teams teach very similar techniques (watch a young Reggie Wayne vs. DJK), deploying 3 reciever sets very often, running picks, bubble screens, basically using a short passing game as a run game to soften defenses that are playing the run too aggresively. It's a general football strategy, but the schemes often look identical. The Colts have also been known to have Iowa Offensive coaches in camp and at W. 56th street to study the before mentioned techniques. Nobody compares to Peyton Manning, but Iowa is one of the few succesful major college programs that deploys a pro style quarterback system. But that just makes them look like most other NFL teams.
Defense-
Norm Parker deploys a cover 2 scheme. In fact, he can claim to be the Godfather of the cover 2 scheme. The Colts play the Tampa 2, designed by Tony Dungy, who was a Norm Parker Desciple (he was a safety for the Steelers when Norm was with Pittsburgh). Tony claims that Norm was a huge influence on him. Both D lines play undersized, gap shooting techniques. Linemen use their hands in similar ways. Linebackers for Hawks and Colts define themselves in the Tampa 2 Will, Sam, Middle terms, and deploy similar Tampa 2 techniques. Corners play with identical Tampa 2 techniques. Safeties rotate the devided field the same way.... this is all because the Hawks and Colts both have the roots of their defensive schemes from the same man, and the people who are employing all of this come from the same schematic background. This is not by accident. Watching the Colts and Hawks play defense is schematically identical.
Now, I don't profess to be a football expert, but as stated before, I have Colts season tickets, I have been afforded the great pleasure of being able to talk to many ex-Hawk, current Colts players and coaches... I attend multiple camp workouts, all their home games, make roadies, follow them in the playoffs and the like. My family has had season tickets to the Haks since the 1930's, I recieved season ticks to Kinnick as a ten year old, grew up 2 miles from the stadium, was fortunate to be able to attend practices because I had an uncle who was a trainer, and have attended games at Kinnick as a professional adult as much as possible, but usually get to aprox 3 games a year. I know these two organizations, respect, study and even to some degree help each other on occasion. I think it is still a fact that the only NFL team that Ferentz has ever actually interviewed formally for to head coach, is the Colts. Polian has stated many times that he is an admirer of the Hawks program, and likes to take chances on Hawkeye players, as he has signed many besides the ones that have stuck.
I doubt that this post will make any dent in whatever logic you're employing, which I think is the all knowing "eye test" method. Hard to argue that one. But, there is a deep Hawkeye current running through the Colts. It is why there is an incredible explosian of Hawk/Colt fans inside Lucas Oil Stadium. I can't properly explain to you how much pro Iowa Hawkeye ferver I hear at Colts games, especially when I where my vintage Iowa Demond "Bob" Sanders jersey to the games. It's getting to the point where it is similar to the Hawkeye love inside Arrowhead Stadium in KC. That is still the biggest pro-Hawkeye NFL sight I've been to, and I've been to all the Midwest venues.
Go Hawks! Go Colts!
So, while my puny little brain will struggle to grasp the enormity of your challenge, I will tell you why the Colts and the Hawks, scheme wise, are similar.
Offense-
Both the Colts and Hawks employ zone blocking schemes for the run game. The Jets, to their credit employ traditional matchup and overbalance schemes. Now, the Jets get Iowa like results, their line is more talented in match ups (and much bigger), and to the Colts credit, it seems organizationally, they are addressing this problem by shedding smaller lineman, as they are starting the process of employing bigger, nastier, more talented linemen. Also the way the Hawks and Colts make use of their Tight Ends is very similar. Two tight ends are common for both teams, and both teams allow one tight end to slide into h-back position (Dallas has even stood up, ala Iowa, but hasn't done it for awhile). On the wide reciever front, both teams teach very similar techniques (watch a young Reggie Wayne vs. DJK), deploying 3 reciever sets very often, running picks, bubble screens, basically using a short passing game as a run game to soften defenses that are playing the run too aggresively. It's a general football strategy, but the schemes often look identical. The Colts have also been known to have Iowa Offensive coaches in camp and at W. 56th street to study the before mentioned techniques. Nobody compares to Peyton Manning, but Iowa is one of the few succesful major college programs that deploys a pro style quarterback system. But that just makes them look like most other NFL teams.
Defense-
Norm Parker deploys a cover 2 scheme. In fact, he can claim to be the Godfather of the cover 2 scheme. The Colts play the Tampa 2, designed by Tony Dungy, who was a Norm Parker Desciple (he was a safety for the Steelers when Norm was with Pittsburgh). Tony claims that Norm was a huge influence on him. Both D lines play undersized, gap shooting techniques. Linemen use their hands in similar ways. Linebackers for Hawks and Colts define themselves in the Tampa 2 Will, Sam, Middle terms, and deploy similar Tampa 2 techniques. Corners play with identical Tampa 2 techniques. Safeties rotate the devided field the same way.... this is all because the Hawks and Colts both have the roots of their defensive schemes from the same man, and the people who are employing all of this come from the same schematic background. This is not by accident. Watching the Colts and Hawks play defense is schematically identical.
Now, I don't profess to be a football expert, but as stated before, I have Colts season tickets, I have been afforded the great pleasure of being able to talk to many ex-Hawk, current Colts players and coaches... I attend multiple camp workouts, all their home games, make roadies, follow them in the playoffs and the like. My family has had season tickets to the Haks since the 1930's, I recieved season ticks to Kinnick as a ten year old, grew up 2 miles from the stadium, was fortunate to be able to attend practices because I had an uncle who was a trainer, and have attended games at Kinnick as a professional adult as much as possible, but usually get to aprox 3 games a year. I know these two organizations, respect, study and even to some degree help each other on occasion. I think it is still a fact that the only NFL team that Ferentz has ever actually interviewed formally for to head coach, is the Colts. Polian has stated many times that he is an admirer of the Hawks program, and likes to take chances on Hawkeye players, as he has signed many besides the ones that have stuck.
I doubt that this post will make any dent in whatever logic you're employing, which I think is the all knowing "eye test" method. Hard to argue that one. But, there is a deep Hawkeye current running through the Colts. It is why there is an incredible explosian of Hawk/Colt fans inside Lucas Oil Stadium. I can't properly explain to you how much pro Iowa Hawkeye ferver I hear at Colts games, especially when I where my vintage Iowa Demond "Bob" Sanders jersey to the games. It's getting to the point where it is similar to the Hawkeye love inside Arrowhead Stadium in KC. That is still the biggest pro-Hawkeye NFL sight I've been to, and I've been to all the Midwest venues.
Go Hawks! Go Colts!
Ok first of all I never said I was superior to you so your first comment is out. Second almost every one in the nfl runs the tampa two, at some point, And to compare Iowa to the Colts Offense is just a slap in the face, in no way does the colts remind anyone of the hawks, I could only wish our offense was as good. I was simply saying when you watch the jets, there d and o remind me of the hawks. A great d with an ave offense the colts are complete opposites. Great O but ave D would you dissagree with that? When you look at it that way which team seems more like Iowa do you still think Colts, and what does the fact that your season tickets since 1933, your grandpa was a trainer, and you dated the cousin of a roomate of a friend who worked at the local gas station, have anything to do with this particular topic. If dallas Stood up durning a game the colts are playing that would be Haydens era not Kirks as stated in my original post. As we both know, I am not going to change my mind and your not going to change yours so why argue about it? I see some of your points on the colts with some of their plays and formations, but everyone runs those formations or if not everyone most teams will at some point. I am not sure you have grasped the topic of this post. And as a fan of the colts my self I am kinda suprised that you would think they are so much like the hawks,
HerkyDog
Well-Known Member
OK, OK, your right, you win. The fact that the head coach, d coordinator, offensive architect were all Hawkeyes, and the fact that two of the highest profile Hawkeye players in history all reside in Indianapolis makes the Colts nothing like the Hawks. It's how they look when they play. I'm such a dummy. How could I not see it. You're right, the Colts d doesn't take on a Bob Sanders like edge when he is healthy and playing, kind of like how Parker likes the current Hawkeye d to assend to and makes an example of all the time, and why you see Bob prowling the sideline at least once a year since he's been a pro. Same goes for Dallas. Ech, what am I thinking. That Shonn Greene, the guy that went to Iowa for, oh, like a year and a half (I really do love him, but c'mon), he makes the Jets look like the Hawks. I'm so stupid!!
By the way, It's not very nice to rif on someones family in public. I was certain you would know that, considering how sophisticated you are in your analysis, that is why I shared some background with you. Sorry it was a pain in the rear for you to have to read that.
I think we are done here.
HerkyDog
Well-Known Member
Sorry, Ihawks61,
My last post was kind of off point, and mean spirited. I think the best thing about Iowans, at least when I was growing up, is admitting a mistake, and being man enough to apologize when you get out of line, and I am out of line.
To reset, I think the heart of the matter with what you are referring to when you think the Jets look like a Kirk team, is the fact that he grinds on offense, and forces the opposing offense to either make mistakes, or hopes a talented defense makes big plays to win. Like the Jets... or Ravens, both Rex Ryan teams. However, this is not, nor has it always been a trademark of a Kirk led team. Kirk has in the past allowed the Hawks offense the opportunity to open and make plays early in games with both Brad Banks and Drew Tate at the helm. This last year was a bit misleading, because Stanzi had opportunity to make plays in front, but many times ended up pick 6's early, forcing Iowa to adopt a more conservative aproach to protect Stanzi.
I think the Hawks will look most like a good Patriots team (ironically Kirk is a Bellicheat protege) this year. Opportunistic play making on both sides of the ball. I just don't believe the Jets are ready to be a championship team... especially if Sanchez (who reminds me nothing of Stanzi) has a sophmore slump. It seems as though the Jets are trying to add playmakers. I don't believe in Greene's ability to stay healthy as a primary back, he never has... and I really think LT is done, unfortunately. Holmes? This suspension is going to hurt a lot. The D? It's really, really good. But dominant two years in a row? We'll see. That would mean it's a special D with special talent... and right now, there is no proof. Let's see it again, they have a much rougher schedule this year, as in the AFC AND NFC Central division. That's a much tougher sled than last year's NFC West I believe. Well, they kind of survived the AFC South which was hard, but the schedule strength was quite week fo them last year overall because of the down grading of the Pats. But, overall, I think I understand what you are getting at... and still disagree based on your assumption of Kirk Ferentz.
My last post was kind of off point, and mean spirited. I think the best thing about Iowans, at least when I was growing up, is admitting a mistake, and being man enough to apologize when you get out of line, and I am out of line.
To reset, I think the heart of the matter with what you are referring to when you think the Jets look like a Kirk team, is the fact that he grinds on offense, and forces the opposing offense to either make mistakes, or hopes a talented defense makes big plays to win. Like the Jets... or Ravens, both Rex Ryan teams. However, this is not, nor has it always been a trademark of a Kirk led team. Kirk has in the past allowed the Hawks offense the opportunity to open and make plays early in games with both Brad Banks and Drew Tate at the helm. This last year was a bit misleading, because Stanzi had opportunity to make plays in front, but many times ended up pick 6's early, forcing Iowa to adopt a more conservative aproach to protect Stanzi.
I think the Hawks will look most like a good Patriots team (ironically Kirk is a Bellicheat protege) this year. Opportunistic play making on both sides of the ball. I just don't believe the Jets are ready to be a championship team... especially if Sanchez (who reminds me nothing of Stanzi) has a sophmore slump. It seems as though the Jets are trying to add playmakers. I don't believe in Greene's ability to stay healthy as a primary back, he never has... and I really think LT is done, unfortunately. Holmes? This suspension is going to hurt a lot. The D? It's really, really good. But dominant two years in a row? We'll see. That would mean it's a special D with special talent... and right now, there is no proof. Let's see it again, they have a much rougher schedule this year, as in the AFC AND NFC Central division. That's a much tougher sled than last year's NFC West I believe. Well, they kind of survived the AFC South which was hard, but the schedule strength was quite week fo them last year overall because of the down grading of the Pats. But, overall, I think I understand what you are getting at... and still disagree based on your assumption of Kirk Ferentz.
Look I do admit that your argument is very strong and maybe I should have said, they remind me of the hawks for the past couple of years, I have told you several times that I am a colts fan, but I have never told you why. 1 they have as you have stated as well the most hawkeye players, and coacheswith Iowa ties. 2 they have current players that were some of the greatest players to ever play @ iowa. 3 I like payton as I think he is the best qb in the game today. We see eye to eye on all things stated in these post with the regards to players, iowa ties, and the fact that the colts do look like Iowa in ways. But you hit it on the head when you finished with your last post on style of play the jets are doing and the hawks are doing currently. Now if you were to say the 2002 team and 04 team reminded you of the colts I would have to agree 100 percent, with alot of 3 and 4 and even 5 wide out sets. My original post was just a thought that the teams play alike in grinding out t.o.p and having very strong D that relies on turnovers and hold opponentsto short drives looking for better field position. Unlike 2002 hawks who didnt care where the ball was they knew they could score. I.E. the dallas clark 93 yard pass or however long it was on a te 3 yard out route against purdue went to the house. Iowa is not that strong on O yet, hopefully this year they will be, and I didnt rip on you family I am sure they are very respectable, I only was trying to imply that it has no bearing on this topic, so for that I am sorry if I have offended you and your family.
