Regarding Notre Dame and Big Ten expansion

[SteveCraig]

1) Do not underestimate the desire of the alumni base to remain independent. The alumni are more than willing to leave millions of dollars (how many million, I don't know) on the table to remain independent in football.

2) The "$22 million per school" may be a close estimate of payouts from the Big Ten Network to member schools, but is not a direct comparison to ND's NBC annual payout. No one knows the exact numbers. However, even if true, ND will not be coerced into the Big Ten by the $7 million difference. The switch would cost enormous amounts of alumni contributions cutting into the difference. Of course, as the Big Ten Network becomes even more profitable, this difference increases.

3) The loss of a home for Olympic sports would be devastating to ND (eg, if the Big East dissolves or kicks ND out). However, it is very likely that a home would be found even without the current Big East or the Big Ten. At the very least, a collection of Catholic schools (DePaul, Georgetown, Villanova, Marquette, Seton Hall, etc) could likely form a league to house ND's teams. It is true that this would not be real palatable to ND, but if it means maintaining football independence, I think the Irish would take it.

4) The Big Ten will not successfully coerce ND into affiliation by threatening to stop playing ND in football. In fact, this would dissolve into a bad PR move by the Big Ten. The moment Michigan, MSU, and Purdue cancel games, ND would call the likes of Tennessee, Texas A&M, and Oregon for series. In turn, the impartial observers would kill the Big Ten for soft non-conference schedules and the PR would be with ND. Plus, it is easy as an Iowa fan to tell other schools to cancel the series. The fact remains, those schools enjoy the series with ND. (Despite what Steve Deace suggests. Though he may not enjoy the ND game, clearly his school does: the contract was recently signed through 2031. And, guess who the opponent will be in the first night game in Michigan Stadium?) In a moment of honesty, if you had the choice between the Big Ten boycotting ND or a guaranteed regular series between Iowa and ND, which would you take?

5) I'm not sure why people believe that the Big Ten can convince ND they need to join now, or "the train will leave the station." So the Big Ten goes to 16 teams without ND. Do you really believe that if ND called a few years later and wanted to be the 17th team, they would be turned down? Why, because an odd number of teams doesn't work (we have 11 now)? Because 17 is too big (but 16 isn't)?

 

[rocky3rza]

Finally, somebody who gets it.

 

[JHHawk]

The Big Ten will go to 9 conference games after expansion. That means 9 tough games...how many Big Ten schools will want to play tough games for their non-conference season and miss a bowl? Not many.
ND may not join, fine, but they risk being left out in the cold totally if there is a move to 4 big conferences...why would they give ND any special consideration on bowl games? And if they stuck together, then ND will play more Western Michigan and Army games than ever. If Purdue can play Georgia, would they miss playing ND? If the superconferences agree to play each other,where does that leave ND?
If there was no advantage to ND joining,they would have not even considered the option as their AD openly did.

 

[Wayco]

If 4 "super conferences" come to pass Notre Dame will either join or be left out of what will be the playoff picture. leagues of 16 teams, each with 2 divisions of 8. Each conference has it's conference title game which gives us 4 conference champs, which in turn sets things up perfectly for a little 3 game playoff (pretty much the "plus1" format). There will be so much money involved with that scenario the NCAA won't need Notre Dame involved.

 

[eyekwah]

It won't be the Alumni that decide. It will be Father Jenkins that makes the call. The Alumni can threaten to withhold gifts, but ND is still ahead money by joining. The cons for not joining are more than outweighed by the reasons to join. Notre Dame tradition wouldn't be what it is without the benefit of the Big Ten.

 

[Hawke]

Notre Dame dropped the ball when they declined to join the Big Ten when it had the chance. For petinence it must say 500 Our Fathers and throw a Hail Mary.

Bo had it right - to hell with Notre Dame. They've been sliding into irrelevance since Lou Holtz left and are nearly there.

 

[CAARHawk]

Replacing games in West Lafayette, East Lansing, and Ann Arbor with games in Eugene, Knoxville, and College Station? Hmmmm? What's the difference?

 

[83Hawk]

"5) I'm not sure why people believe that the Big Ten can convince ND they need to join now, or "the train will leave the station." So the Big Ten goes to 16 teams without ND. Do you really believe that if ND called a few years later and wanted to be the 17th team, they would be turned down? Why, because an odd number of teams doesn't work (we have 11 now). Because 17 is too big (but 16 isn't)?"

Yes, I believe they would be. There is no way the Big 10 will expand to an odd number of teams. Either Notre Dame is in now, or they are out (unless the current expansion is to 12 or 14, because IMO 16 is the MAX).

 

[latrans]

Notre Dame dropped the ball when they declined to join the Big Ten when it had the chance. For petinence it must say 500 Our Fathers and throw a Hail Mary.

Bo had it right - to hell with Notre Dame. They've been sliding into irrelevance since Lou Holtz left and are nearly there.

Finally somebody who gets it!

To the OP if you think not playing big10 teams isn't going to hurt nd then you have another thing coming. Personally I think the big10 should give nd the cold shoulder and just let them shrivel and die.

 

[ShadasRevenge]

Finally somebody who gets it!

To the OP if you think not playing big10 teams isn't going to hurt nd then you have another thing coming. Personally I think the big10 should give nd the cold shoulder and just let them shrivel and die.

It's not an issue of Notre Dame being hurt by not playing those teams from the Big 10, it's the other way around. Think about it. Who could Michigan, MSU, or Purdue replace Notre Dame with that would be as attractive as Notre Dame? Having the Domers in their building every other year is a guaranteed sellout, and those schools (maybe not so much Michigan) would have a hard time finding another opponent to play year in and year out that would bring that level of excitement.

Think of it this way - if the Iowa/ISU series were to end, Iowa (Notre Dame in this scenario) probably wouldn't have much of a problem replacing them on the schedule with another BCS team. Who could Iowa State (MSU/Purdue) get?

 

[CAARHawk]

It's not an issue of Notre Dame being hurt by not playing those teams from the Big 10, it's the other way around. Think about it. Who could Michigan, MSU, or Purdue replace Notre Dame with that would be as attractive as Notre Dame? Having the Domers in their building every other year is a guaranteed sellout, and those schools (maybe not so much Michigan) would have a hard time finding another opponent to play year in and year out that would bring that level of excitement.

Think of it this way - if the Iowa/ISU series were to end, Iowa (Notre Dame in this scenario) probably wouldn't have much of a problem replacing them on the schedule with another BCS team. Who could Iowa State (MSU/Purdue) get?

Um, let's see.... How about, um, well...Nebraska, Penn State, Michigan, Ohio State? What you don't seem to understand is that this change wouldmost likely involve more in-conference games. Those games sell very well. We are not talking about replacing ND with Toledo. That game will already happen as a throw away game.

 

[JHHawk]

It's not an issue of Notre Dame being hurt by not playing those teams from the Big 10, it's the other way around. Think about it. Who could Michigan, MSU, or Purdue replace Notre Dame with that would be as attractive as Notre Dame? Having the Domers in their building every other year is a guaranteed sellout, and those schools (maybe not so much Michigan) would have a hard time finding another opponent to play year in and year out that would bring that level of excitement.

Think of it this way - if the Iowa/ISU series were to end, Iowa (Notre Dame in this scenario) probably wouldn't have much of a problem replacing them on the schedule with another BCS team. Who could Iowa State (MSU/Purdue) get?

Who could Michigan get?
Florida
Texas
LSU
Ok.
Bama
Miami
USC
UCLA

You think Michigan will not sell out for anyone other than ND?
4 superconferences will work together to pollinate each others non-conference schedules.
If Michigan plays 9 tough conference game,will they want to play ND?
They might want 3 sellouts with cupcakes.
Michigan will make more money not playing ND.

 

[ShadasRevenge]

Um, let's see.... How about, um, well...Nebraska, Penn State, Michigan, Ohio State? What you don't seem to understand is that this change wouldmost likely involve more in-conference games. Those games sell very well. We are not talking about replacing ND with Toledo. That game will already happen as a throw away game.

You see, I'm going off the assumption that Notre Dame will not be joining the conferece. If the Big 10 schools that currently play Notre Dame give them the cold shoulder, it would be a public relations disaster for those schools and the conference.

Anyhow...I'll spell out what I was trying to say, and should have said the first time.

It'll would be easier for Notre Dame to replace Purdue than it would be for Purdue to replace Notre Dame. Same goes for Michigan State. Michigan can schedule whomever they want, and I said as much in the post you quoted - they're not going to have any problems finding teams that want to come to Ann Arbor.

 

[ShadasRevenge]

Um, let's see.... How about, um, well...Nebraska, Penn State, Michigan, Ohio State? What you don't seem to understand is that this change wouldmost likely involve more in-conference games. Those games sell very well. We are not talking about replacing ND with Toledo. That game will already happen as a throw away game.

Funny, because thats exactly what I'm talking about. If you had the option of going to Iowa City to watch Iowa play Notre Dame or Toledo in the non-conference, which game would you pick?

 

[tiggerhawk]

Sorry, but you haven't the foggiest.

The Facts--easily confirmed by going to the official agendas of the Big Ten presidents annual meetings, as ONLY the they have the authority to consider expansion

1. Notre Dame HAS NEVER been considered for membership by the BT, and will NOT BE.

2. The primary, all-critical criterion for BT membership is that the potential member be a major research university, with the capability to enhance the research facilities and funding of the BT consortium. Notre Dame IS NOT and has NO INTENTION OF BECOMING a major research university.

3. Notre Dame DOES NOT want to be a BT member, It is an excellent academic undergraduate university with a small law school & a few small grad programs, and its first, all-important criterion is to become an even better undergraduate institution. Anyone who thinks that football matters enough to compare to the ND pursuit of teaching & academic excellence simply doesn't know much about the school. Why ignore the repeated, firm statements by ND on its priorities?

 

[ShadasRevenge]

Sorry, but you haven't the foggiest.

The Facts--easily confirmed by going to the official agendas of the Big Ten presidents annual meetings, as ONLY the they have the authority to consider expansion

1. Notre Dame HAS NEVER been considered for membership by the BT, and will NOT BE.

2. The primary, all-critical criterion for BT membership is that the potential member be a major research university, with the capability to enhance the research facilities and funding of the BT consortium. Notre Dame IS NOT and has NO INTENTION OF BECOMING a major research university.

3. Notre Dame DOES NOT want to be a BT member, It is an excellent academic undergraduate university with a small law school & a few small grad programs, and its first, all-important criterion is to become an even better undergraduate institution. Anyone who thinks that football matters enough to compare to the ND pursuit of teaching & academic excellence simply doesn't know much about the school. Why ignore the repeated, firm statements by ND on its priorities?

Probably want to hit the quote button with a lead-in like that.

 

[VAHawkFan]

Sorry, but you haven't the foggiest.

2. The primary, all-critical criterion for BT membership is that the potential member be a major research university, with the capability to enhance the research facilities and funding of the BT consortium...

THIS!

As fans we tend to look at conference expansions from the standpoint of athletics only. And while the Big Ten certainly wants to help and not harm it's reputation as one of the "power conferences", anyone who thinks this is ultimately about athletic revenue and prowess has blinders on...or just hasn't heard the whole story. The non-athletic funds that are shared among the Big Ten schools from research grants outweighs revenue from athletics by 20x.

$20,000,000 - $30,000,000 per school from Big Ten Network revenue is a nice juicy number, no doubt about it.

And yet, each Big Ten school received more than $466,000,000 from the $5.6 billion pot controlled by the Committee on Institutional Cooperation (of which each Big Ten school is a member plus the University of Chicago). You better believe that any school asked to join the Big Ten will be expected to have the programs, facilities and funding to be able to add significantly to that big ol' pot of gold.

The Big Ten presidents are not going to be willing to trade tens of millions in athletic revenue for hundereds of millions in grant money no matter how great a school's football team once was.

 

[WhitUp]

It has nothing to do with Notre Dame finding people to play in Football, if the Big East dissolves it'll be a scheduling nightmare in other sports. In Febuary when all the major conferences are in the home stretch of their conference seasons, who's going to want to schedule a non-conference basketball game with ND???? What benefit would you gain, by risking injury in the middle of conference season. And it's not just basketball, it's field hockey,baseball,every freaking sport without the big east it's going to be a scheduleing nightmare. They'll be fine in finding 12 opponnetts for football that's easy. it's finding opponnets to play in other sports that they are worried about, they may have no choice.

 

[CAARHawk]

Funny, because thats exactly what I'm talking about. If you had the option of going to Iowa City to watch Iowa play Notre Dame or Toledo in the non-conference, which game would you pick?

I think it is either hysterical or sad that you and the OP can't seem to get this argument. Let me try to break it down more simply.

1) You say it would be easier for ND to replace Purdue than for Purdue to replace ND.

Response: There are two major flaws in this reasoning. 1) It presupposes the same amount of conference games. Added teams in the conference will most likely mean added conference games. Purdue will replace ND with a Big Ten Conference foe. Easy as pie.

2) You seem to not be considering travel issues. For instance, the OP talked about adding three teams. The added travel miles for those three teams would be 8000 round-trip miles. ND benefits radically by playing three games in their backyard. You cannot replace these backyard games with quality teams if you go outside the Big Ten. The closest major conference options would be Cincy and Louisville. Sorry, but that is quite a dropoff.

The most funny comment was the one about who would you rather play, Toledo or ND? Um, for throw away games? Toledo! When the major conferences change to four superconferences, the OOC schedule will be meaningless. That will mean these schools will schedule non-BCS schools for these games as warm-ups or breaks between conference games.

 

[EastLosRandy]

5) I'm not sure why people believe that the Big Ten can convince ND they need to join now, or "the train will leave the station." So the Big Ten goes to 16 teams without ND. Do you really believe that if ND called a few years later and wanted to be the 17th team, they would be turned down? Why, because an odd number of teams doesn't work (we have 11 now). Because 17 is too big (but 16 isn't)?

Many of your points are good and interesting, but I'm not buying this one.

An odd number of teams doesn't work. With 11 teams a lucrative nine-game conference schedule is mathematically impossible. Same would be true for 17 or any other odd number. 16 is too big unless we go nine games, and then there are still some drawbacks. 17 is bigger than 16, and you can't play nine games with 17 teams. 17 teams = complete nightmare.

If the Big Ten goes to 16 without ND, the domers won't be able to wait until they realize that they're headed down the same road as the Ivy League and then say, "Hey we were just kidding, sign us up for the Big 17!" Not gonna happen.