HaydensHawk
Well-Known Member
Real. Good. Post.
Philosophy, Our Dline, KOK, Beilema, Fitzgerald,
- Thread starter briankaldenberg
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jsmhawk
Well-Known Member
This! We have been the definition of insanity against NW. We keep doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results. We have to change our game plan against NW and Indiana. Great coaches are flexible and adjust their game plans based on who they are playing.
busabus114
Well-Known Member
I agree 100% with this post and it seems so simple right? Amazing that after several years of struggling with the same mediocre teams the coaches dont try anything different.
MoseSchrute
Well-Known Member
Those are the key words right there. And I totally agree with OP.
Spot on, clearly its an issue stopping spread dink and dunk offenses with this particular defensive scheme. Arizona went up and down the field using this exact formula, Indiana despite being a much less talented team stayed in the game and nearly won using this, and now NW has done it again.
Just as an observation(with the understanding that there are vast differences in talent level) in the NFL you almost never see corners giving up 8-10 yard cushions on WRs. You almost always see CB's lined up within 5 yards or less, a risky proposition for sure, at any moment a Wideout could get deep with any mistake made or just pure speed, but at the same time if executed properly takes away what is essentially an expanded running game. I've seen it for years as a Colts fan as Peyton Manning takes a team with absolutely no running game to 10 wins or more. He can do it because he is extremely accurate and confident in his ability to put the ball in a place where either his man can make the catch or not at all. The point here is that they make him work for it there aren't any easy 1st downs. As long as the defense does a decent job and major mistakes aren't made every ball is contested in some way.
Now I understand the philosophy of this defense is to keep the man in front and inside you where you or your inside help can make a play on him rather than watch him go to the races. This works great against any run-play action based offense, you'll rarely see any WR running free in the secondary without some major mistakes in assignment. But against teams happy to use a mobile QB and quick short passes as a running game this wont work. To them its all about getting first downs. They don't care about breaking big ones as much they want to tire you out and drive down the field. Not really much different from our offensive scheme aside from how that goal is achieved and of course like us they're hoping we'll make a mistake and someone will be wide open. We have to make them work for even the short throws, because we all know Dan Persa is not Peyton Manning.
Just as an observation(with the understanding that there are vast differences in talent level) in the NFL you almost never see corners giving up 8-10 yard cushions on WRs. You almost always see CB's lined up within 5 yards or less, a risky proposition for sure, at any moment a Wideout could get deep with any mistake made or just pure speed, but at the same time if executed properly takes away what is essentially an expanded running game. I've seen it for years as a Colts fan as Peyton Manning takes a team with absolutely no running game to 10 wins or more. He can do it because he is extremely accurate and confident in his ability to put the ball in a place where either his man can make the catch or not at all. The point here is that they make him work for it there aren't any easy 1st downs. As long as the defense does a decent job and major mistakes aren't made every ball is contested in some way.
Now I understand the philosophy of this defense is to keep the man in front and inside you where you or your inside help can make a play on him rather than watch him go to the races. This works great against any run-play action based offense, you'll rarely see any WR running free in the secondary without some major mistakes in assignment. But against teams happy to use a mobile QB and quick short passes as a running game this wont work. To them its all about getting first downs. They don't care about breaking big ones as much they want to tire you out and drive down the field. Not really much different from our offensive scheme aside from how that goal is achieved and of course like us they're hoping we'll make a mistake and someone will be wide open. We have to make them work for even the short throws, because we all know Dan Persa is not Peyton Manning.
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Puttman
Well-Known Member
Correct, Manning can't run, Persa did yesterday-repeatedly keeping drives alive as our gassed D-line missed arm tackle after arm tackle.
DuffMan
Well-Known Member
But guys here's the rub. For every action we have there is a trade off. There were 3 occasions in which we stepped outside of our normal selves on D in the 4th quarter.
One play was a blitz with press man coverage. We didn't get to Persa and he squirted out of the pocket. Because our LB's and DB's were all running man on man with recievers there was no one spying Persa and he had a 20+ yard rush.
Play two was a press man blitz and Jamie Morris sack for a loss of 7 or 8 yards.
Play 3 was a press man blitz and they scored the TD.
These things don't happen in a vaccum and all defenses have weakensses. I'm not going to argue that the schemes we run don't have issues and aren't vulnerable to certain offenses. I'm also not going to argue that KF feels this scheeme is the best thing for our team overall and based on the results in his tenure I'd say he's right.
One play was a blitz with press man coverage. We didn't get to Persa and he squirted out of the pocket. Because our LB's and DB's were all running man on man with recievers there was no one spying Persa and he had a 20+ yard rush.
Play two was a press man blitz and Jamie Morris sack for a loss of 7 or 8 yards.
Play 3 was a press man blitz and they scored the TD.
These things don't happen in a vaccum and all defenses have weakensses. I'm not going to argue that the schemes we run don't have issues and aren't vulnerable to certain offenses. I'm also not going to argue that KF feels this scheeme is the best thing for our team overall and based on the results in his tenure I'd say he's right.
sergeanthulka
Well-Known Member
You're right, duff, they don't happen in a vacuum.
But it's time to try something different against NU. It's embarrassing at this point.
Regarding point #3. That was the exact blitz teams know is coming once they get to our 20 yard line. That was the exact coverage they knew they would look to isolate in that situation when the blitz cam. Micah Hyde played the EXACT follow coverage Phil Parker has been teaching for 12 years -- never turning around -- instead trying to read the eyes & hands of the receiver.
32-43 for Persa yesterday (with about 4-5 drops) on a day when weather conditions are a big factor. Just line him up in succession with about the last 6 NU QB's that they simply plug into that offense & kill us softly. We have as much experience & talent on defense as we've ever had -- yet can't stop 85 & 91 yard drives when the game is on the line.
Something needs to change...NU simply isn't that good.
But it's time to try something different against NU. It's embarrassing at this point.
Regarding point #3. That was the exact blitz teams know is coming once they get to our 20 yard line. That was the exact coverage they knew they would look to isolate in that situation when the blitz cam. Micah Hyde played the EXACT follow coverage Phil Parker has been teaching for 12 years -- never turning around -- instead trying to read the eyes & hands of the receiver.
32-43 for Persa yesterday (with about 4-5 drops) on a day when weather conditions are a big factor. Just line him up in succession with about the last 6 NU QB's that they simply plug into that offense & kill us softly. We have as much experience & talent on defense as we've ever had -- yet can't stop 85 & 91 yard drives when the game is on the line.
Something needs to change...NU simply isn't that good.
Saginawbay
Well-Known Member
Right on the money this defense philosophy has always struggled against ball control spread, and we refuse to make an changes when we play against this style of offense.
KF approach's every game like it is a 50/50 game we have no swagger no attitude if we want to be an elite team must beat teams you should and this has been an on going problem for KF and Iowa we play to the level of the competition.
Maybe KF needs to speak with Tom Brands and Dan Gable and learn how to win as a favorite.
Hawkize1
Well-Known Member
Yesterdays game was lost on the coin toss. Neither team scored going into the wind.
Nw attempted a field goal at that end it wasn't even close. So whomever had the wind in the 4th quarter was going to win that game.
Iowa was nursing a 17-7 lead going into the 4th. So when Hunter intercepted Persa when they were driving. Iowa should have pounded the run to eat as much time as they could and punted if they couldn't run for a first...Instead we get a first down then throw passes. The Nw interception was a killer, Iowa could have taken at least another 2-3 minutes off the clock it wasn't so late that NW would have had to use time-outs but it would have left them with a late enough game clock after they scored to make it 17-14 to force them to decide if an onside side kick was in play.
That 4th quarter series after the int was crucial going into the wind. Iowa should have had the mindset of lets eat as much clock as we can, make NW have a higher sense of urgency, maybe they will make a mistake.
That's my take.
I still love my Hawks and I will support them no matter what.
Nw attempted a field goal at that end it wasn't even close. So whomever had the wind in the 4th quarter was going to win that game.
Iowa was nursing a 17-7 lead going into the 4th. So when Hunter intercepted Persa when they were driving. Iowa should have pounded the run to eat as much time as they could and punted if they couldn't run for a first...Instead we get a first down then throw passes. The Nw interception was a killer, Iowa could have taken at least another 2-3 minutes off the clock it wasn't so late that NW would have had to use time-outs but it would have left them with a late enough game clock after they scored to make it 17-14 to force them to decide if an onside side kick was in play.
That 4th quarter series after the int was crucial going into the wind. Iowa should have had the mindset of lets eat as much clock as we can, make NW have a higher sense of urgency, maybe they will make a mistake.
That's my take.
I still love my Hawks and I will support them no matter what.
SpecialKHawk
Well-Known Member
There's more issues here than schemes. This is not the best defensive unit we've had despite the D-Line but I'm amazed at the amount of scrutiny that the 'D' gets.
Before the game if we were told the 'D' would give up 21 points I think many of us would think we would still have a very good chance of winning. We made exactly 2 trips to the NW red zone all day. This team just gave up 35 points to PSU(28 in the second half). When will our fan base hold the offense accountable for results? The offensive execution was pitiful and it wasn't just one guy.
KF was supposed to be an offensive and O-Line guru, yet our offenses are rarely anything to brag about. When we got up by 10 points against NW we needed exactly 1 more TD the rest of the way to ice the game and never sniffed the red zone.
My rub is why we are starting under-sized O-lineman like Koeppel when we have massive bodies like Van Sloten sitting on the sidelines? When will KF commit to putting out a line that averages 6'5"+ & 300+ lbs and then sit back and maul teams like IU and NW? That is the key to beating these teams; physical play in the trenches and a relentless effort to jam the ball down their throats for 4 quarters. That's what wears down an undersized and over-achieving program like NW.
Before the game if we were told the 'D' would give up 21 points I think many of us would think we would still have a very good chance of winning. We made exactly 2 trips to the NW red zone all day. This team just gave up 35 points to PSU(28 in the second half). When will our fan base hold the offense accountable for results? The offensive execution was pitiful and it wasn't just one guy.
KF was supposed to be an offensive and O-Line guru, yet our offenses are rarely anything to brag about. When we got up by 10 points against NW we needed exactly 1 more TD the rest of the way to ice the game and never sniffed the red zone.
My rub is why we are starting under-sized O-lineman like Koeppel when we have massive bodies like Van Sloten sitting on the sidelines? When will KF commit to putting out a line that averages 6'5"+ & 300+ lbs and then sit back and maul teams like IU and NW? That is the key to beating these teams; physical play in the trenches and a relentless effort to jam the ball down their throats for 4 quarters. That's what wears down an undersized and over-achieving program like NW.
PatrickAdamovicz
Well-Known Member
The OP is spot on, no one can argue any other way. What I find rather odd is that at many times in yesterday's game, the Iowa d line doesn't even rush the passer. They engage the lineman, I assume to make sure it is indeed a pass and then they try rushing. There were many time yesterday where it looked as though only one guy was rushing and the other 3 were spying.
As for the lack of sack numbers, it's a direct result of the way Iowa plays their corners. How do you expect a guy to get to the QB, when you give such a big cushion that it gives the QB an out every time he wants. Persa yesterday simply threw it for a 6 to 8 yard gain any time he felt pressure. Wouldn't it be smart if you had a dominate line that you play your corners up in the jam position so you don't give the QB an out. By playing off the receivers as deep as Iowa does, your basically negating your own advantage at pass rushing. It makes no sense whatsoever.
Then the other thing I don't understand is that by not rushing the passer as Iowa didn't do many times yesterday; as I pointed out, Iowa looked as though they were so concerned with gap responsibility and Persa running that many times they just tried to keep him in the pocket, but doesn't that go against the game plan? Think about it, if your going to ask your linebackers to cover receivers all day long, don't one think that you should be blowing up the field in attempt to get to the QB and not be overly concerned with keeping him in the pocket? It makes no sense at all.
As for the lack of sack numbers, it's a direct result of the way Iowa plays their corners. How do you expect a guy to get to the QB, when you give such a big cushion that it gives the QB an out every time he wants. Persa yesterday simply threw it for a 6 to 8 yard gain any time he felt pressure. Wouldn't it be smart if you had a dominate line that you play your corners up in the jam position so you don't give the QB an out. By playing off the receivers as deep as Iowa does, your basically negating your own advantage at pass rushing. It makes no sense whatsoever.
Then the other thing I don't understand is that by not rushing the passer as Iowa didn't do many times yesterday; as I pointed out, Iowa looked as though they were so concerned with gap responsibility and Persa running that many times they just tried to keep him in the pocket, but doesn't that go against the game plan? Think about it, if your going to ask your linebackers to cover receivers all day long, don't one think that you should be blowing up the field in attempt to get to the QB and not be overly concerned with keeping him in the pocket? It makes no sense at all.
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SpecialKHawk
Well-Known Member
22-17
17-10
21-17
17, 10 & 17.... is what we scored the past 3 meetings. These teams included offensive personnel like Shonn Greene, Stanzi, DJK, McNutt.
We gave up 22 points (in a 5 turn-over game) in our worst.
Enough said about defense.
17-10
21-17
17, 10 & 17.... is what we scored the past 3 meetings. These teams included offensive personnel like Shonn Greene, Stanzi, DJK, McNutt.
We gave up 22 points (in a 5 turn-over game) in our worst.
Enough said about defense.
busabus114
Well-Known Member
Incredible
Whats even more incredible is that our 1 win was on the road with Jake the snake at the helm
SpecialKHawk
Well-Known Member
That is incredible but that is the year we scored 28 points;
Score? 28 - 17.... with the 'D', yes the 'D' giving up 17 points (very similar pt total)
Score? 28 - 17.... with the 'D', yes the 'D' giving up 17 points (very similar pt total)
roetbombaaa
Well-Known Member
Then why post?? You must feel pretty proud of yourself. He's telling the truth here.
Billso
Well-Known Member
Precisely. It's practically an IQ test; you know someone is double-digits if they hang yesterday's loss on the defense.
We scored just 17 points; here's what some other powerhouse O's scored on the Mildcats this year:
Penn State 35
MSU 35
Purdue 20
Minnesota 28 (freakin' Minnesota!)
Central Michigan 25
Vanderbilt 21
Plus our O's non-performance had a direct impact on our D's effectiveness, by permitting Northwestern to run 80 PLAYS on offense. That will gas any defense in the country, making scheme irrelevant at that point.
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spudhawk
Well-Known Member
I agree with many of the things you all are pointing out here. Something that hasn't been pointed out here and could have been brought up in a thread I haven't read yet is the lack of disguising the blitz. Iowa lines up the same against an alignment the same almost every time unless they are going to bring pressure. That is stupid. Don't tip your blitz. The element of surprise is worth an extra step or two and a smart QB like Persa or Chappell will feast on a change in alignment by Iowa. Mix up the coverages with your dime and nickel packages- play zone and don't blitz every time they come in the game.
