Performance and Development

[cincyhawk]

Something has been bugging me about college football for years. When I was a kid, not everyone that played football lifted weights. Some guys were big, sure, but they weren't monsters. If you look at even an average college team's raster now, all the kids are monsters. The height and weight ratios reported for players are absolutely off of the charts.

Something few people know about is Fat Free Mass Index. It measures your height to weight ratio. In https://journals.lww.com/cjsportsme...ee_Mass_Index_in_Users_and_Nonusers_of.3.aspx - the ffmi of bodybuilders, some of them admitted steroid users, some clean, demonstrated that the upper limit adjusted FFMI of non-steroid users was 25.0. Over 25.0, nearly everyone was an admitted steroid user.

In a study of NCAA Div 1 and Div 2 football players last year, https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/27930454/, 26.4% of ncaa athletes tested above this limit. It was especially prevalent among offensive and defensive linemen. The Division 1 players were more likely to be above the limit than the Division 2 players.

The scientific evidence is available on every media guide to the teams. Performance enhancement is probably prevalent and widespread in college football. No, Iowa and Iowa State aren't immune. You can do the calculations yourself.

Of course, the science could be inaccurate. Football players are elite athletes and maybe moreso than Mr. America winners and thus will have more muscle. It's pretty clear that no offensive lineman has the physique of Ronnie Coleman or Arnold Schwarzenegger - their bodyfat is too high. But, with current science it appears that there's more to college football conditioning than nutrition and weight lifting.

I'm really surprised that it hasn't been a scandal yet. It's coming though.

 

[Caddy]

Yes you are correct. It is rampant. Many ways around the testing. Nutrition and weightlifting are very important, but they aren't the only things involved when you see 20-30 pound bodyweight increases over an off season. Just doesn't work that way.

 

[Northside Hawk]

Something has been bugging me about college football for years. When I was a kid, not everyone that played football lifted weights. Some guys were big, sure, but they weren't monsters. If you look at even an average college team's raster now, all the kids are monsters. The height and weight ratios reported for players are absolutely off of the charts.

Something few people know about is Fat Free Mass Index. It measures your height to weight ratio. In https://journals.lww.com/cjsportsme...ee_Mass_Index_in_Users_and_Nonusers_of.3.aspx - the ffmi of bodybuilders, some of them admitted steroid users, some clean, demonstrated that the upper limit adjusted FFMI of non-steroid users was 25.0. Over 25.0, nearly everyone was an admitted steroid user.

In a study of NCAA Div 1 and Div 2 football players last year, https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/27930454/, 26.4% of ncaa athletes tested above this limit. It was especially prevalent among offensive and defensive linemen. The Division 1 players were more likely to be above the limit than the Division 2 players.

The scientific evidence is available on every media guide to the teams. Performance enhancement is probably prevalent and widespread in college football. No, Iowa and Iowa State aren't immune. You can do the calculations yourself.

Of course, the science could be inaccurate. Football players are elite athletes and maybe moreso than Mr. America winners and thus will have more muscle. It's pretty clear that no offensive lineman has the physique of Ronnie Coleman or Arnold Schwarzenegger - their bodyfat is too high. But, with current science it appears that there's more to college football conditioning than nutrition and weight lifting.

I'm really surprised that it hasn't been a scandal yet. It's coming though.

Professional bodybuilders have literally lost their lives trying to get "shredded" for a major contest because their bodyfat ratios were so dangerously low that their vital organs malfunctioned or shut down. Mohammed Benaziza and Andreas Munzer in the 1990's come to mind. Many others have died young. Female bodybuilders and extreme athletes have it worse. Many stop having menstrual cycles and undergo hysterectomies because their uterus is rendered useless.

These athletes may look healthy now, but they are ticking time bombs beneath the surface. It's yet another reason why those that do play professionally want to make their money and get out.

 

[99topdawg]

Iowa's last game was Jan 1. Their next game is August 31st. I will guarantee you that I can put on 20-25 pounds in that time without taking anything illegal. I'm already off to a pretty good start.

 

[guffus]

I have thought about this too. Maybe a simple solution to this issue is to implement a weight limit for all players based on height. It does not matter if players are getting big legally or not. Many times players are just too damn big for their bodies. They have turned themselves into freaks, not natural athletes.

The game would be more interesting if there was a 275 pound weight limit for all players.

 

[Caddy]

Professional bodybuilders have literally lost their lives trying to get "shredded" for a major contest because their bodyfat ratios were so dangerously low that their vital organs malfunctioned or shut down. Mohammed Benaziza and Andreas Munzer in the 1990's come to mind. Many others have died young. Female bodybuilders and extreme athletes have it worse. Many stop having menstrual cycles and undergo hysterectomies because their uterus is rendered useless.

These athletes may look healthy now, but they are ticking time bombs beneath the surface. It's yet another reason why those that do play professionally want to make their money and get out.

It had absolutely nothing to do with their body fat being so low. It is a fact the Momo Benaziza died from cardiac arrhythmia due to electrolyte imbalance from improper diuretic use. Munzer died from internal bleeding due to the abuse of a drug called aminoglutathimade. Female athletes often lose their menstrual cycle due to extremely low levels of body fat, and/or use of PEDs, but it returns after the body fat returns to a more normal level, or the drugs are stopped. Performance enhancing drugs are not that dangerous at all, that misconception died a long time ago. Smoking, drinking, eating a horrible diet are all much worse for the body than using some performance enhancing drugs. They do get the bad rap though when somebody dies, commits suicide, etc. Most people would be shocked to learn of the amount of athletes in high school, college, and professional sports that use them.

 

[Northside Hawk]

It had absolutely nothing to do with their body fat being so low. It is a fact the Momo Benaziza died from cardiac arrhythmia due to electrolyte imbalance from improper diuretic use. Munzer died from internal bleeding due to the abuse of a drug called aminoglutathimade. Female athletes often lose their menstrual cycle due to extremely low levels of body fat, and/or use of PEDs, but it returns after the body fat returns to a more normal level, or the drugs are stopped. Performance enhancing drugs are not that dangerous at all, that misconception died a long time ago. Smoking, drinking, eating a horrible diet are all much worse for the body than using some performance enhancing drugs. They do get the bad rap though when somebody dies, commits suicide, etc. Most people would be shocked to learn of the amount of athletes in high school, college, and professional sports that use them.

Yes and no on Momo and Andreas. You're correct in the official causes of their death. Both were trying to attain the goal of flushing as much water from their physiques as possible. It used to be called "timing the peak" in bodybuilding lingo, and it could win or lose a major contest, like Mr. Olympia. Momo was restricting his water intake to dangerously low levels for about 72 hours, allowing himself only apple slices, etc. for his water intake. This in turn threw his electrolyte balance out of whack, causing the cardiac arrest, which is a vital organ. He started having troubles in his hotel room several hours after contest. Fellow body builder Porter Cottrell, who was also a paramedic, was awakened to take emergency measures. By the time Porter arrived Momo's body was already as rigid as telephone cable.

You're correct about Munzer. Wasn't it in his stomach? Munzer, even among bodybuilders, was known for a densly muscular physique, often compared to a skinned cat onstage, but never allowed his body to recover in the offseason. His diet was in contest mode twelve months a year, which is impossible. Even Arnold Schwarzenegger, Lee Haney, Lee Labrada, Rich Gaspari, Dorian Yates, all of them, allowed for a semi-normal diet for the offseason, with occasional cheat days, and would get 15-30 pounds above contest weight. It's also an effective way to gain, or refine, necessary muscle mass. Add the drug that you mentioned on top of the already dangerous way he was taxing his body and it was a deadly combination. He was abusing a dangerous drug and doubling down by ingesting it into weaker vessels and arteries, or whatever the official medical term is. Anyuerism, possibly?

You're more correct than me about the females and the disruption of the menstrual cycle. The cycles are disrpted, but only during extreme training. When female bodybuilders, marathon runners or triathletes stop with extreme training, their cycles return. Permanent disruptions and hysterectomies due to athletic training are less common than how I posted it.

Performance enhancing drugs, like anything else, have to be taken as directed and with a physician's or athletic trainer's supervision. It's when athletes abuse them or ride the redline with them to try and get the extra edge that they can become dangerous.

 

[uihawk82]

Iowa's last game was Jan 1. Their next game is August 31st. I will guarantee you that I can put on 20-25 pounds in that time without taking anything illegal. I'm already off to a pretty good start.

I am not sure if some of the guys on this thread remember the growth spurts of 18-19 year old males. My brother went into the army at about 19 and he was very athletic but in high school couldnt yet add the muscle he wanted. After a year in the army and even more weight training on his own as well as PT he had gone from 150 to 170 lbs with more definition. Dont diminish that these young college athletes who are aggressive and maybe higher testosterone levels and other higher Growth Hormone levels, along with training table food and excellent weight training facilities are in the perfect timing for adding muscle mass.

I dont know if PED testing is not good enough but I also dont think even most young guys adding 20 lbs of muscle are using PEDs. Actually I am more worried about the linemen who are at 320 lbs with not only muscle but fat and how that strains the heart. Many of these bulky players do not have the heart size to go with that body size so I hope they lose a lot of the weight soon after their playing days are over.

 

[Northside Hawk]

I am not sure if some of the guys on this thread remember the growth spurts of 18-19 year old males. My brother went into the army at about 19 and he was very athletic but in high school couldnt yet add the muscle he wanted. After a year in the army and even more weight training on his own as well as PT he had gone from 150 to 170 lbs with more definition. Dont diminish that these young college athletes who are aggressive and maybe higher testosterone levels and other higher Growth Hormone levels, along with training table food and excellent weight training facilities are in the perfect timing for adding muscle mass.

I dont know if PED testing is not good enough but I also dont think even most young guys adding 20 lbs of muscle are using PEDs. Actually I am more worried about the linemen who are at 320 lbs with not only muscle but fat and how that strains the heart. Many of these bulky players do not have the heart size to go with that body size so I hope they lose a lot of the weight soon after their playing days are over.

This is what I was getting at in the final paragraph in post three of this thread. Even the linemen themselves generally don't want to carry all that weight around, but it's a necessity to play professionally. The sooner they can make a little money and get out, the sooner they can return to a more reasonable weight. There are numerous examples of NFL linemen who shed thirty or forty lbs after they quit playing and return to a more normal weight.

 

[Caddy]

I am not sure if some of the guys on this thread remember the growth spurts of 18-19 year old males. My brother went into the army at about 19 and he was very athletic but in high school couldnt yet add the muscle he wanted. After a year in the army and even more weight training on his own as well as PT he had gone from 150 to 170 lbs with more definition. Dont diminish that these young college athletes who are aggressive and maybe higher testosterone levels and other higher Growth Hormone levels, along with training table food and excellent weight training facilities are in the perfect timing for adding muscle mass.

I dont know if PED testing is not good enough but I also dont think even most young guys adding 20 lbs of muscle are using PEDs. Actually I am more worried about the linemen who are at 320 lbs with not only muscle but fat and how that strains the heart. Many of these bulky players do not have the heart size to go with that body size so I hope they lose a lot of the weight soon after their playing days are over.

You're talking about kids that are already training, already eating right, etc. They're not gaining 20-30 pounds of lean bodyweight over the course of an off season. Are there kids that do? sure, but the use of PEDs in sports, at every level is rampant. I guarantee you it is as I have first hand knowledge of it. The lure of professional contracts, and being the best at their sport is what pushes a lot of these athletes to use them. A lot of the time they have to use them just to be on an even playing field when everyone else is using them.

 

[Caddy]

Yes and no on Momo and Andreas. You're correct in the official causes of their death. Both were trying to attain the goal of flushing as much water from their physiques as possible. It used to be called "timing the peak" in bodybuilding lingo, and it could win or lose a major contest, like Mr. Olympia. Momo was restricting his water intake to dangerously low levels for about 72 hours, allowing himself only apple slices, etc. for his water intake. This in turn threw his electrolyte balance out of whack, causing the cardiac arrest, which is a vital organ. He started having troubles in his hotel room several hours after contest. Fellow body builder Porter Cottrell, who was also a paramedic, was awakened to take emergency measures. By the time Porter arrived Momo's body was already as rigid as telephone cable.

You're correct about Munzer. Wasn't it in his stomach? Munzer, even among bodybuilders, was known for a densly muscular physique, often compared to a skinned cat onstage, but never allowed his body to recover in the offseason. His diet was in contest mode twelve months a year, which is impossible. Even Arnold Schwarzenegger, Lee Haney, Lee Labrada, Rich Gaspari, Dorian Yates, all of them, allowed for a semi-normal diet for the offseason, with occasional cheat days, and would get 15-30 pounds above contest weight. It's also an effective way to gain, or refine, necessary muscle mass. Add the drug that you mentioned on top of the already dangerous way he was taxing his body and it was a deadly combination. He was abusing a dangerous drug and doubling down by ingesting it into weaker vessels and arteries, or whatever the official medical term is. Anyuerism, possibly?

You're more correct than me about the females and the disruption of the menstrual cycle. The cycles are disrpted, but only during extreme training. When female bodybuilders, marathon runners or triathletes stop with extreme training, their cycles return. Permanent disruptions and hysterectomies due to athletic training are less common than how I posted it.

Performance enhancing drugs, like anything else, have to be taken as directed and with a physician's or athletic trainer's supervision. It's when athletes abuse them or ride the redline with them to try and get the extra edge that they can become dangerous.

I'm assuming you are, or were involved in the strength training/bodybuilding world. Most wouldn't have any idea about Momo or Munzer unless they were. Both were known for extreme levels of conditioning as you said. Basically Munzer had a lot of internal bleeding that started in his liver or stomach. He abused oral androgens constantly, which caused severe liver damage, and gastric problems, however he could have lived if he got medical treatment in time. He was using a drug called Cytadren, which is used for people with Cushing's, as it blocks the effects of cortisol. Cortisol is released in response to stress, and basically lets your body know something is wrong. Well he never knew anything was wrong until it was too late, due in large part to that drug, which masked all the damage that was going on due to everything else he was taking. Sad story, as he was a very good guy.

 

[HawkeyeWalker]

Tons of variables here.

Of course PEDs are used, although I'm not sure to what extent. There is also a ton of legal stuff and science out there now as well.

A huge thing is body type/frame, what position we are talking about, is the kid done growing... etc.

Is a lean, finished growing RB or WR or DB going to add a ton of weight in one offseason...unlikely. but could likely add 5-10 pounds per year...depending on the individual. Some will have a harder time than others depending on physiology, etc.(i.e. Wadley, although he appeared slightly bigger in his NFL games)

But a big frame, still growing player... TE, OL, DL, LB...those frames/positions could add 20+ pounds in 1 offseason. With the 1st offseason in a college training table and program being the largest jump.

Heck, some guys grow significantly even after the jump to the NFL, when it can be a full time endeavor.

Was recently in GNC, finally back to lifting after 20 year "break" lol. Couldn't believe the stuff available. One shake providing 1200+ calories, 70 grams protein, creatine, BCAA....all in one shake. That would have made things easier 25 years ago.

 

[thetrza]

I know its not the point of your thread, but the NFL guys are even more jacked and build and ripped and they make the college game look like a bunch of kids playing flag football and guys go from being skinny and fast in college to being human tanks and cruise missiles at the next level and the fans just tolerate it because the game is fast and exciting.

 

[uihawk82]

but the use of PEDs in sports, at every level is rampant. I guarantee you it is as I have first hand knowledge of it.

.

Please post links to multiple sources of PEDs being in rampant use in high school and college levels, I am very curious to read the reports. I read about pro athletes using PEDS/etc in all kinds of sports, nothing new there.

And if you have first hand knowledge of it are you turning people in, tellling authorities how players are getting away with it, condoning it, turning a blind eye???

 

[Northside Hawk]

I'm assuming you are, or were involved in the strength training/bodybuilding world. Most wouldn't have any idea about Momo or Munzer unless they were. Both were known for extreme levels of conditioning as you said. Basically Munzer had a lot of internal bleeding that started in his liver or stomach. He abused oral androgens constantly, which caused severe liver damage, and gastric problems, however he could have lived if he got medical treatment in time. He was using a drug called Cytadren, which is used for people with Cushing's, as it blocks the effects of cortisol. Cortisol is released in response to stress, and basically lets your body know something is wrong. Well he never knew anything was wrong until it was too late, due in large part to that drug, which masked all the damage that was going on due to everything else he was taking. Sad story, as he was a very good guy.

Munzer, who was from either Austria or Germany, had to deal with the "Next Arnold" stigma in addition to everything else. That was impossible. Like Ali, Jordan, and Tiger Woods, Schwarzenegger had a personality as large as his athletic accomplishments. And yes Munzer was a very good guy

I grew up in an era dominated by Lee Haney and Dorian Yates (I thought Shawn Ray in his prime was better than either one, better balance in physique, better muscle quality). Any forays I myself made into weight training were strictly as a hobby but I read the bodybuilding magazines that came out every month. Still do on occasion.

 

[Northside Hawk]

Tons of variables here.

Of course PEDs are used, although I'm not sure to what extent. There is also a ton of legal stuff and science out there now as well.

A huge thing is body type/frame, what position we are talking about, is the kid done growing... etc.

Is a lean, finished growing RB or WR or DB going to add a ton of weight in one offseason...unlikely. but could likely add 5-10 pounds per year...depending on the individual. Some will have a harder time than others depending on physiology, etc.(i.e. Wadley, although he appeared slightly bigger in his NFL games)

But a big frame, still growing player... TE, OL, DL, LB...those frames/positions could add 20+ pounds in 1 offseason. With the 1st offseason in a college training table and program being the largest jump.

Heck, some guys grow significantly even after the jump to the NFL, when it can be a full time endeavor.

Was recently in GNC, finally back to lifting after 20 year "break" lol. Couldn't believe the stuff available. One shake providing 1200+ calories, 70 grams protein, creatine, BCAA....all in one shake. That would have made things easier 25 years ago.

All of the modern knowledge in the world, however, cannot completely outsmart nature. There are a thousand ways to increase muscle mass, muscle quality, slow down the build up of lactic acid, speed up the removal of lactic acid, on and on and on. But nothing, to my knowledge, can speed up the development of ligaments, tendons, joints, that kind of stuff. And too much muscle buildup on those joints and tendons, especially if not balanced muscle buildup, can lead to issues. And then there are some people who genetically have weaker tendons, joints and ligaments to begin with. Derrick Rose may be an example of that.

 

[4thngoal]

Iowa's last game was Jan 1. Their next game is August 31st. I will guarantee you that I can put on 20-25 pounds in that time without taking anything illegal. I'm already off to a pretty good start.

Actually you can put on that weight with not much fat. 2lbs of lean weight a month is doable. It takes dedication. 1.5 pounds is more attainable to regular people.

 

[cincyhawk]

It's not that twenty pounds in a year is unattainable, ever (some guys just need to develop, period) - it's that an adjusted fat free muscle index of over 25 indicates PED use, and 25% of Div 1 athletes studied are at 25 or higher. The current science shows that is nearly impossible to attain naturally, even for bodybuilders who have been training for physique only, for, in most cases, ten years or more.

Players may be beating drug tests; that's pretty hard to do without medical guidance, though, which indicates institutional support. I understand NFL fans looking the other way. Not college fans, though. Especially in a season where overtraining caused the death of a student athlete.

If a layman, like me, can run the numbers on our media guide and get +25's for FFMI on 22 year-old kids... that's insane. To get below 25 on some of these guys takes an obscene amount of fat for guys that visually, just can't be that fat.

Someday, somebody will die and the scandal will break; or somebody that matters will run the numbers and start sniffing around. It will be as bad as the basketball pay for play scandal, and maybe worse. My only hope is that the science is wrong or that somebody else gets caught first.

 

[Northside Hawk]

It's not that twenty pounds in a year is unattainable, ever (some guys just need to develop, period) - it's that an adjusted fat free muscle index of over 25 indicates PED use, and 25% of Div 1 athletes studied are at 25 or higher. The current science shows that is nearly impossible to attain naturally, even for bodybuilders who have been training for physique only, for, in most cases, ten years or more.

Players may be beating drug tests; that's pretty hard to do without medical guidance, though, which indicates institutional support. I understand NFL fans looking the other way. Not college fans, though. Especially in a season where overtraining caused the death of a student athlete.

If a layman, like me, can run the numbers on our media guide and get +25's for FFMI on 22 year-old kids... that's insane. To get below 25 on some of these guys takes an obscene amount of fat for guys that visually, just can't be that fat.

Someday, somebody will die and the scandal will break; or somebody that matters will run the numbers and start sniffing around. It will be as bad as the basketball pay for play scandal, and maybe worse. My only hope is that the science is wrong or that somebody else gets caught first.

What was the FFMI on Korey Stringer and did it contribute to his fatal heatstroke?

 

[cincyhawk]

What was the FFMI on Korey Stringer and did it contribute to his fatal heatstroke?

Give me a sec.

Stringer was, assuming an absurdly high bodyfat of 30%, a 28.66. Nobody not taking steroids in the literature has been that high. He was also taking ephedra, which is used for cutting weight, especially in combination with asprin and caffeine. There are easy to access websites that indicate the cycles to use. It was determined that the supplements did mot cause his death, but of he was on an ephedrine and caffeine cycle, that would raise the possibility that he was already dehydrated before the heat stroke occurred.