People are losing their minds over Butler...why?

[HawkKing81]

How can it POSSIBLY be more impressive than George Mason? If I'm reading this right, you're saying that if a team who should have been no worse than a 3 seed wins the whole thing, they made a more impressive run than an 8 seed that won it all. And just by making it to the title game, they've had a more impressive run than George Mason, an 11 seed from the Patriot League? Give me an F'ing break. George Mason beat a 6 seed Michigan State team, then defending national champion UNC (a 3 seed), then a 7 seed Wichita State team (who a lot of people thought were underseeded), and then overall #1 UCONN. George Mason got into the tourney because they won their conference tournament. Butler made the Dance because they were a top 10 caliber team. And George Mason beat better teams to get there than Butler has, IMO.

3 seeds have made it this far before. Florida won it as a 3 seed in 2006 (and made it to the finals as a 5 seed in 2000). Syracuse was a 3 seed when they beat Kansas. Hell in 2006, the seeds were 2,3,4, and 11.

Butler's run is impressive, but I still don't get how it's such a shock. They were SUPPOSED to be very good, and were considered a top-10 caliber team pretty much all year. Since when do we get worked up about a top-10 team making the national championship game? Stop treating them like they're some kind of alien. They want to be treated like every other team in the country (from the BCS conferences). And they've proven time and again that they deserve that. So stop cheapening what they've accomplished by making them out to be Hickory High v2.0.

I am not saying that if Butler wins the National Championship that it will be the "biggest upset", I am saying it would be the "most impressive".

Look, I know that an 11 is greater than 5. So I get that it is a bigger upset for an 11 seed to as far as a 5. And I am not that "shocked" by Butler's run. They have been a better team than probably everyone that they have played. They have better players and better coaches than most of their opponents.

My point is, let's throw out the seeds they are or what they were ranked in the pre season. In my opinion Butler, George Mason and the dozens of schools in a similar situation as them (small school, small conference) all have a difficult time winning it all. When is the last time a small school from a mid major conference won a National Championship? The 60's?

So if Butler wins the National Championship, no it won't be as shocking as an 11 seed making it to the final four...but in the grand scheme of things it would be the most impressive National Championship that I have ever seen.

 

[IATrainMaster101]

Obviously Butler is the little brother. School of 4,000 where the others are nearly 10X the size.

Yes but they get the same number of Schollies that every other team gets. So as long as they build a solid reputation as a basketball school, it can be done.

As I understand it Butler is the smallest school to ever get this far, but there have been many small schools that have been powerhouses in the past.

 

[HawkeyeNTexas]

Butler went over 9 minutes in the second half without a basket in the MSU game. 9 minutes! MSU gave that game away. KSU, MSU, and Syracuse made the mistake of not getting the ball inside enough against Butler. Butler doesn't have the Big's to handle an inside game. Also, Butler's silly double team at the top of the key was not taken advantage of by dishing the ball as soon as the double team hit. I'll give Butler the benefit of the doubt, but they should have lost to Murray State.

 

[berniend]

Butler went over 9 minutes in the second half without a basket in the MSU game. 9 minutes! MSU gave that game away. KSU, MSU, and Syracuse made the mistake of not getting the ball inside enough against Butler. Butler doesn't have the Big's to handle an inside game. Also, Butler's silly double team at the top of the key was not taken advantage of by dishing the ball as soon as the double team hit. I'll give Butler the benefit of the doubt, but they should have lost to Murray State.

Last time i checked Butler hadn't lost a game since December and have a victory over a number 1 seed in the field of 64. Instead of making excuses for these other teams give Butler some credit . Your post doesn't carry much weight .

 

[latrans]

Jon,

Whose lossing their minds over Butler? I'm not and it really doesn't seem like many people on this board are even surprised that they made it to the championship. Is it (no offense intended here) that the 'they' you are refering to are members of the media who have a vested interest in making a story as interesting and sensational as possible?

 

[didymushawk]

Jon,

Whose lossing their minds over Butler? I'm not and it really doesn't seem like many people on this board are even surprised that they made it to the championship. Is it (no offense intended here) that the 'they' you are refering to are members of the media who have a vested interest in making a story as interesting and sensational as possible?

I think he's referring to the fact that the media (ESPN and such) is making this game out to be some sort of David and Goliath matchup, when in reality, both these teams are pretty equal.

 

[tm3308]

Jon,

Whose lossing their minds over Butler? I'm not and it really doesn't seem like many people on this board are even surprised that they made it to the championship. Is it (no offense intended here) that the 'they' you are refering to are members of the media who have a vested interest in making a story as interesting and sensational as possible?

While I understand that's the job of the media at this point (as a journalism/sports studies major at the UI), they've gone way over the top with this. Butler may be an underdog, but they certainly aren't Hickory High, or Crispus Attucks.

There are two great teams playing in the NCAA championship game. Simple as that. It's not David vs. Goliath. It's two teams that the media had pegged as top 10-caliber all year long. It would be one thing if only the coaches had said Butler was that good. But the MEDIA said they were that good in the preseason. So why must they forget that and make this out to be something it's not, other than money? Honestly, sometimes capitalism really does suck. Not all the time, but in cases such as this, tourney expansion, the BCS, it sucks.

 

[SteveGarvey]

Because "you can't win with the Butler system" or so said a few "experts" on this board. I know it's probably been a little tweaked since Lick was there but it's probably close to the same. So we can at least put that myth to rest as far as the reasons it didn't work out for Lick here.

"You can't win without talent" is more like it, irrespective of the system.

Somewhere Lick is kicking himself in the butt and saying "why, why why did I ever leave there to go to Iowa?"

 

[HawkeyeNTexas]

Last time i checked Butler hadn't lost a game since December and have a victory over a number 1 seed in the field of 64. Instead of making excuses for these other teams give Butler some credit . Your post doesn't carry much weight .

20 pound bag of sand dropped on your foot. Their is some weight for you.

 

[tweeterhawk]

Good for you, Jon. Butler is no Cinderella. They will not be a push over tomorrow, either.

I am a lifelong Hawkeye fan, born and raised in IC, went to my first bball games with my Dad in the fieldhouse, watching Downtown Freddie Brown, Kevin Kunnert, JJ, and the rest of the 1970 Hawks. Live and die with the Hawkeyes and thank G-d for the B10 Network.

I now live in Indy, about a 5 minute drive from Hinkle fieldhouse on Butler's campus, and send my kids to their bball camp every year. I have had numerous experiences with the folks at the bball dept. at Butler, and attend about a 1/2 dozen games a year (minimum), and have even made road trips to see them play. I would root for the Hawks if the two were to ever play against each other, just so you know.

I am so thankful that I can take my kids to Hinkle, because it is the closest thing to the old Fieldhouse I have ever experienced, and I have experienced a lot of venues. I have been a supporter of Butler since Barry Collier was the coach, and have seen the steady rise of this program. These kids are everything that the media talks about and frankly, more. I have been getting to know Ron Nored recently, because he is a student teacher of my daughter's at her elementary school, and I know a lot of the professors that have/had these kids in their classes.

These guys do it the right way, and are to be admired. So many stories to tell about them, but I think Hawkeye Nation in general is tired of hearing about "The Butler Way", and that is why there is some of the hate on this board about these kids. I am sorry Coach Lick did not work out. I support the decision to move on with Coach Fran. I will tell you this, you will never hear bad things about Iowa from Coach Lick, like you keep hearing from ... the other unmentionable in New Mexico. Won't happen.

Even though there is a bad end with the coaches from Butler, I believe a foundation has been laid by them, and a corner will be turned soon. Although they will never get any credit, future Hawkeye success will owe a small debt of gratitude to the Butler Bulldogs, and Coach Lick. I will never forget, and will always be happy that these two programs will be distant cousins forever.

As for the game tomorrow. Expect Howard to be rotated with Jukes, Smith, and maybe even Butcher (tough son of a gun who hasn't played much in the second half of the season because of a knee). They may go to four guards often and blanket the three point shooters of Duke, forcing them to play inside. If Duke is bugged, Butler will weave and run a lot on offense, and basically try to run Duke off the court while bleeding the clock, because the Bulldogs are a lot deeper, stronger, and athletic than anyone gives them credit for. IF Butler is shooting the rock halfway decently, they may drive Duke crazy. Butler went down to Cameron about 4 years ago, and darn near won with a similar formula, but without the same talent as they have now. Either way, should be a wail of a game.

Go Dawgs!!

Great post, HerkyDog. Really appreciate the input of someone on the ground there.

Although I supported the change in coaches at Iowa, I have to admit to having some questions. Hoping you can provide some info that might clarify some of my thinking.

1) Clearly this year's Butler team was of national championship caliber. They did a pretty good job of disassembling a very strong Duke team. Save for a couple missed free throws and a couple lapses defending inbounds plays, Butler wins this game. How much of this, if any, was Todd Lickliter's team? Or were these pretty much Brad Stevens' players?

2) This Butler team appeared far more athletic than the Iowa teams of the last three years, although Eric May, Cully Payne, Aaron Fuller showed flashes of athleticism and it appears that Cody Larson and Roy Marble Jr. may also have some potential. (Don't know that much about McCabe and I'm not sure how Brust is going to be in the Big 10.) From your vantage point, did you see Lickliter building the same sort of foundation at Iowa that carried Butler to within one point of the national championship tonight?

3) What was the local reaction when Lickliter left Butler? Without the advantage of seeing how the last three years played out at both schools, did Bulldog fans feel they lost a really great coach when TL was announced at Iowa? I've seen some reports suggesting some fans were happy to see him go.

Butler Ball -- with the right players, including true point guards and a couple strong bigs -- clearly can work in the Big 10. A question for me remains whether TL had the ability to implement it at Iowa.

 

[HerkyDog]

Great post, HerkyDog. Really appreciate the input of someone on the ground there.

Although I supported the change in coaches at Iowa, I have to admit to having some questions. Hoping you can provide some info that might clarify some of my thinking.

1) Clearly this year's Butler team was of national championship caliber. They did a pretty good job of disassembling a very strong Duke team. Save for a couple missed free throws and a couple lapses defending inbounds plays, Butler wins this game. How much of this, if any, was Todd Lickliter's team? Or were these pretty much Brad Stevens' players?

2) This Butler team appeared far more athletic than the Iowa teams of the last three years, although Eric May, Cully Payne, Aaron Fuller showed flashes of athleticism and it appears that Cody Larson and Roy Marble Jr. may also have some potential. (Don't know that much about McCabe and I'm not sure how Brust is going to be in the Big 10.) From your vantage point, did you see Lickliter building the same sort of foundation at Iowa that carried Butler to within one point of the national championship tonight?

3) What was the local reaction when Lickliter left Butler? Without the advantage of seeing how the last three years played out at both schools, did Bulldog fans feel they lost a really great coach when TL was announced at Iowa? I've seen some reports suggesting some fans were happy to see him go.

Butler Ball -- with the right players, including true point guards and a couple strong bigs -- clearly can work in the Big 10. A question for me remains whether TL had the ability to implement it at Iowa.

Thanks, Tweeter.

Sad for the Bulldogs, but very, very proud... and know they will be hungrier next year with the same team coming back, pretty much. Anyway, I'll give you my thoughts to your questions:

#1. These were Lick's kids. Even the G. Haywood situation, was started by Lick and finished by Stevens. This years incoming class was really Stevens' first all by himself. Butler has a wonderful feeder, and scouting system that targets kids quite early, and wraps them up early. Van Zant, Nored, Mack, Butcher, Veasley, Howard, and Jukes all recruited with Lick at the helm. Now, Stevens did a great job of reeling them in at the end and keeping them, but most were either already here or already committed. Butler likes to redshirt, as the case with Mack, Jukes and some other bench guys that will emerge big next year... but this team had Lick all over it, even though they were young.

#2. The biggest secret at Butler is their strength and conditioning program. Indy is home to some of the most renowned sports training facilities in the world, and some of the largest sports medicine programs. If you remember, this past off season, Lick brought in a new strength coach at Iowa after complaining about the lack of dedication in the team to weight training. We started to see it in Cole, Fuller and to a degree, Gatens (although, he didn't seem to ever go like the Butler kids, and seemed to tire rather easily compared to what you saw tonight). Iowa boasted 3 players at the beggining of the season that could bench over 300 lbs, and they were happy some of the other guys were getting there as well. When I asked Coach Graves (bald assistant) of Butler about Butler's program, he said that 7 (yeah, 7!) guys were already benching over 325 lbs. and some of the new freshman were closing in, as they'd had them in as the summer was starting... There is no doubt this is a key to Butler's success, and Iowa was trying to catch up. Lick was trying to get there...

#3.Bulldog fans revere Coach Lick. He spoke to the teams contingent here at their pep rally luncheon for the big spenders on Thursday, and was VERY warmly recieved. In fact, I would not be surprised to see him join the program again if something happens with Stevens (I think he stays one or two more years, though). People around here think there is something systemically wrong at Iowa (I disagree), but that is an IU bend because of all the gum flapping from Alf... ech, the guy in New Mexico.... sorry (hate uttering, writing or typing that name). Butler fans are quite savvy aout the difference in programs, because we have multiple mid majors, and Big programs withing a two hour drive of Indy, and they are mostly quite succesful. We see it all. I don't know of any Butler fans, supporters or faculty/administration that were happy to see him go. There was a bit of outright panic when Stevens was announced, although Lick was quick to endorse him, which helped a lot. To finish, looking in to Iowa's bball program is hard to do sometimes, because of a certain lack of sophistication about how hard it is to build a truly elite program. Iowa bball fans always seem to think it's easier to turn things around because less people are involved, and that is just not true. I think we can agree that it takes a commitment to a culture internally AND externally to truly turn things around, and Iowa has been trying to take short cuts recently (past 10 years), as evidenced by all the social problems and defections, starting really since the Pierre Pierce incident, and quite possibly with the way the Mr. Davis situation was handled.

Hope this helps. Of course, just my opinions.

Go Hawks. Go Dawgs...

 

[tweeterhawk]

Thanks, Tweeter.

Sad for the Bulldogs, but very, very proud... and know they will be hungrier next year with the same team coming back, pretty much. Anyway, I'll give you my thoughts to your questions:

#1. These were Lick's kids. Even the G. Haywood situation, was started by Lick and finished by Stevens. This years incoming class was really Stevens' first all by himself. Butler has a wonderful feeder, and scouting system that targets kids quite early, and wraps them up early. Van Zant, Nored, Mack, Butcher, Veasley, Howard, and Jukes all recruited with Lick at the helm. Now, Stevens did a great job of reeling them in at the end and keeping them, but most were either already here or already committed. Butler likes to redshirt, as the case with Mack, Jukes and some other bench guys that will emerge big next year... but this team had Lick all over it, even though they were young.

#2. The biggest secret at Butler is their strength and conditioning program. Indy is home to some of the most renowned sports training facilities in the world, and some of the largest sports medicine programs. If you remember, this past off season, Lick brought in a new strength coach at Iowa after complaining about the lack of dedication in the team to weight training. We started to see it in Cole, Fuller and to a degree, Gatens (although, he didn't seem to ever go like the Butler kids, and seemed to tire rather easily compared to what you saw tonight). Iowa boasted 3 players at the beggining of the season that could bench over 300 lbs, and they were happy some of the other guys were getting there as well. When I asked Coach Graves (bald assistant) of Butler about Butler's program, he said that 7 (yeah, 7!) guys were already benching over 325 lbs. and some of the new freshman were closing in, as they'd had them in as the summer was starting... There is no doubt this is a key to Butler's success, and Iowa was trying to catch up. Lick was trying to get there...

#3.Bulldog fans revere Coach Lick. He spoke to the teams contingent here at their pep rally luncheon for the big spenders on Thursday, and was VERY warmly recieved. In fact, I would not be surprised to see him join the program again if something happens with Stevens (I think he stays one or two more years, though). People around here think there is something systemically wrong at Iowa (I disagree), but that is an IU bend because of all the gum flapping from Alf... ech, the guy in New Mexico.... sorry (hate uttering, writing or typing that name). Butler fans are quite savvy aout the difference in programs, because we have multiple mid majors, and Big programs withing a two hour drive of Indy, and they are mostly quite succesful. We see it all. I don't know of any Butler fans, supporters or faculty/administration that were happy to see him go. There was a bit of outright panic when Stevens was announced, although Lick was quick to endorse him, which helped a lot. To finish, looking in to Iowa's bball program is hard to do sometimes, because of a certain lack of sophistication about how hard it is to build a truly elite program. Iowa bball fans always seem to think it's easier to turn things around because less people are involved, and that is just not true. I think we can agree that it takes a commitment to a culture internally AND externally to truly turn things around, and Iowa has been trying to take short cuts recently (past 10 years), as evidenced by all the social problems and defections, starting really since the Pierre Pierce incident, and quite possibly with the way the Mr. Davis situation was handled.

Hope this helps. Of course, just my opinions.

Go Hawks. Go Dawgs...

Hmmm. Tremendously helpful. Thanks!

 

[JonDMiller]

While Butler wasn't some huge underdog...I have to admit in hind sight, that they were playing Duke. It wasn't DUKE, but it was still Duke..and damned if that game wasn't setting up like some Hollywood ******.

It will be forever remembered for the team that nearly pulled off the improbable. One of those nights that you are reminded of why you love the theater of sport.

 

[TChawk]

Duck FUKE!

 

[tweeterhawk]

While Butler wasn't some huge underdog...I have to admit in hind sight, that they were playing Duke. It wasn't DUKE, but it was still Duke..and damned if that game wasn't setting up like some Hollywood ******.

It will be forever remembered for the team that nearly pulled off the improbable. One of those nights that you are reminded of why you love the theater of sport.

I was really impressed with Butler's run through the tournament and the game they played last night. A bounce here, a basket there, and they are celebrating today in Indianapolis, not Durham.

I'm not one to look in the rear view mirror and I am ready to see what Coach Fran can do in the coming years to restore Iowa men's basketball.

I do think that Butler's success this year and in many stretches outplaying Duke in the national championship game will provide plenty of ammo to those who say a majority of Iowa's fan base -- and Barta -- pulled the plug too early on Todd Lickliter. Last night the nation saw the caliber of athletes necessary to run the Butler "system." For the most part Iowa does not have those athletes. His supporters will argue that Lick was trying to recruit them and in the last two years had moderate success getting them to Iowa City.